Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Informative thread on the pseudo advice of counsel defense. Gave me some idea of what he’s *trying* to appeal to (and why it doesn’t work):
Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
TY. Threadreader: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1767 ... 47576.htmlandersweinstein wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:13 pm Informative thread on the pseudo advice of counsel defense. Gave me some idea of what he’s *trying* to appeal to (and why it doesn’t work):
https://t witter.com/lawofruby/status/1767700427389247576
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Thank you for the thread reader
Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
I think it’s unlikely that the judge is going to allow him to both raise the defense and not raise it. He’s going to have to pick one.
If he can’t meet all of the elements of the defense, what his lawyers advised him probably isn’t relevant. And if it is relevant, then he has to waive the privilege to get it in front of the jury.
That’s why the rules require notice - so the parties can litigate these issues before trial and not while the jury is languishing in the deliberation room.
This is all about burden-shifting, IMO.
The State has the burden to prove every element of an offense beyond a reasonable doubt. But when it comes to “special defenses” or “affirmative defenses” (jurisdictions use different terms), those defenses also have elements, and the burden is on the defense to present “some evidence” of each element. Then the burden shifts to the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense does not exist.
He says he’s not relying on a “formal” advice of counsel defense. By presenting an advice-of-counsel-light defense he’s trying to (a) keep attorney-client information privileged until he can spring it at the opportune time; and (b) avoid taking on an evidentiary burden he clearly can’t carry, leaving the burden with the government.
But since he can’t meet all the elements of the defense, I doubt judge is going to allow him to argue to the jury that he did anything on advice of counsel. I mean, a criminal defendant is entitled to a fair trial, but so is the government.
If he can’t meet all of the elements of the defense, what his lawyers advised him probably isn’t relevant. And if it is relevant, then he has to waive the privilege to get it in front of the jury.
That’s why the rules require notice - so the parties can litigate these issues before trial and not while the jury is languishing in the deliberation room.
This is all about burden-shifting, IMO.
The State has the burden to prove every element of an offense beyond a reasonable doubt. But when it comes to “special defenses” or “affirmative defenses” (jurisdictions use different terms), those defenses also have elements, and the burden is on the defense to present “some evidence” of each element. Then the burden shifts to the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense does not exist.
He says he’s not relying on a “formal” advice of counsel defense. By presenting an advice-of-counsel-light defense he’s trying to (a) keep attorney-client information privileged until he can spring it at the opportune time; and (b) avoid taking on an evidentiary burden he clearly can’t carry, leaving the burden with the government.
But since he can’t meet all the elements of the defense, I doubt judge is going to allow him to argue to the jury that he did anything on advice of counsel. I mean, a criminal defendant is entitled to a fair trial, but so is the government.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Glad I was able to find it. I refuse to make an account on X, but I do miss being able to read threads and stuff in my browser without one. Less time suck though
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Yeah, I think you're right, but I can read the threads via web without signing up and giving them my damn email and phone #.pipistrelle wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:56 amTwitter bought thread reader a while ago IIRC, which pissed me off.
- Sam the Centipede
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Suppose Trump gets the advice-of-counsel defense onto the field with the requirement to waive attorney-client privilege, what is the situation for the attorneys impugned by him? They aren't going to feel especially cooperative, are they? If Trump is saying (effectively) "my lawyers were crap and told me to do bad things" they're going to say "no, we're not crap, and we didn't tell you to do bad things, you decided for yourself".
Will they have mud in the well of the courtroom for all the defense (past and present) attorneys to wrestle in?
Because to this not-lawya, this appears to have the makings of an interesting punch-up.
Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
It's kind of like an ineffective assistance of counsel claim. Just raising the claim waives the privilege. And the lawyers will be permitted an opportunity to defend their actions. A lawyer who wants to keep his license is not going to play fast and loose with the facts, although he would likely use a scalpel in determining whether to turn over privileged communications not relevant to the specific defense (lawyers talk to clients about all sorts of things, not all of which would be relevant to the advice-of-counsel defense). Of course, one of those lawyers is Michael Cohen; we know what he's going to say.Sam the Centipede wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:52 amSuppose Trump gets the advice-of-counsel defense onto the field with the requirement to waive attorney-client privilege, what is the situation for the attorneys impugned by him? They aren't going to feel especially cooperative, are they? If Trump is saying (effectively) "my lawyers were crap and told me to do bad things" they're going to say "no, we're not crap, and we didn't tell you to do bad things, you decided for yourself".
Will they have mud in the well of the courtroom for all the defense (past and present) attorneys to wrestle in?
Because to this not-lawya, this appears to have the makings of an interesting punch-up.
Trump says this advice-of-counsel-light evidence is relevant to his state of mind, but he doesn't really say how. It sounds like he's saying that since counsel were aware of or involved in the crime, he didn't have the requisite intent to break the law. As Lisa Rubin discussed in the thread, that's not really going to fly.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
I thought of this thread when I saw this tweet today -
From 3/13/2020 - four years ago today, the month that the world shut down because of Covid - Trump is asked "Do you take any responsibility for the lag in testing? Trump's response: "No I don't take responsibility at all."
That is the essence of Trump. He claims credit for the wins of others and denies responsibility for his own bad decisions. It's always someone else's fault. We saw that with his recent financial lawsuit in New York and we're seeing that now in this lawsuit.
I would love to see a video clip of all the times he's denied responsibility for his actions.
From 3/13/2020 - four years ago today, the month that the world shut down because of Covid - Trump is asked "Do you take any responsibility for the lag in testing? Trump's response: "No I don't take responsibility at all."
That is the essence of Trump. He claims credit for the wins of others and denies responsibility for his own bad decisions. It's always someone else's fault. We saw that with his recent financial lawsuit in New York and we're seeing that now in this lawsuit.
I would love to see a video clip of all the times he's denied responsibility for his actions.
Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Just got to read the Rubin thread. I followed the SBF trial pretty closely and remember that. That whole thing was a shitshow bc SBF is both guilty as hell and odd. Judge has been getting a slew of letters from his folks' famous (and legal) friends regarding sentencing which has yet to be set. I have to temper my disgust of him with fairness for sentencing, but my darker angels want him to get the maximum. Of course he tried to fob everything off on "advice of lawyers." Both of his parents are lawyers but hoo boy they are ... unusual.
Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark Twain
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Acyn @Acyn wrote: MacCallum: The first case that is set to go to trial is in New York City on March 25. It deals with the hush money that was paid to Stormy Daniels…
Habba: Do I think it's going to go ahead? Really it shouldn't. We have an immunity defense that is up on The Supreme Court.
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
So in Trumps mind/sludge-pit Presidential immunity starts from before he was President
Truely America will have Kings again if any part of this is ruled so by SCOTUS.
Truely America will have Kings again if any part of this is ruled so by SCOTUS.
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Bragg is agreeing to a 30-day delay due to the Southern District just getting around to dumping 73k pages on everyone. Bastids.
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
So where's the evidence contradicting the idea that SDNY is riddled with MAGA professionals doing what it can to protect fuckhead? Again.
I'll wait.
I'll wait.
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
There will be no justice for us from the orange shitgibbon.
The delays, lying, intransigent behaviours by courts and judges, and malfeasance by the media are getting worse and worse and will allow the sleezeball to avoid justice.
The delays, lying, intransigent behaviours by courts and judges, and malfeasance by the media are getting worse and worse and will allow the sleezeball to avoid justice.
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Which is why the best solution for the OSG is for him to ESAD.
My Crested Yorkie, Gilda and her amazing hair.
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
I think trump asked for 90 days and Bragg said 30 was ok. Glad I circled that date in pencil.
Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark Twain
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
The DoJ didn't turn over documents until now?raison de arizona wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:17 pm Bragg is agreeing to a 30-day delay due to the Southern District just getting around to dumping 73k pages on everyone. Bastids.
Sounds like more incompetence by the guy who leads the Department of Justice. The cowardly, dithering, slothlike Merrick Garland. The guy can't do anything right.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama. ![Old Man :oldman:](./images/smilies/old_man_SMILEY.gif)
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
A couple of tweets with a link to the judge's letter -
erica orden
@eorden
Donald Trump's Manhattan criminal trial will be delayed by 30 days, judge rules:
https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/pre ... -15-24.pdf
Upon further inspection, the ruling is that the trial is delayed 30 days from the date of the letter (today), not 30 days from March 25, when the trial was scheduled to start: "Trial on this matter is adjourned for 30 days from the date of this letter on consent of the People"
Bijan Salehizadeh
@bijans
But judge reserves the right to move it again "The Court will set the new trial date, if necessary, when it rules on Defendant’s motion following the hearing."
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Word from da judge: https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/pre ... -15-24.pdf
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Apparently we're not ready to let go of this yet. Good. Hang those MAGAts at SDNY* out to dry.raison de arizona wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:51 pm Word from da judge: https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/pre ... -15-24.pdf
*Yes, I know there may be valid reasons for the delay. Let's hear them.The parties are directed to separately furnish this Court, not later than Thursday, March 21,
2024, a detailed timeline of the events surrounding the requests and ultimate production of
documents by the USAO-SDNY that serve as the basis of the People’s March 14, 2024 letter. The
timeline should be accompanied by all correspondence between and among DANY, Defendant and
USAO-SDNY that goes to the subject of Defendant’s motion and which is covered by the People’s
notice of March 14, 2024. The correspondence must include but not be limited to letters,
subpoenas, e-mails, notes, messages, etc. The requested documents are necessary for this Court to
properly assess who, if anyone, is at fault for the late production of the documents, what prejudice,
if any, was suffered by either party and what sanction(s) if any, ate appropriate.
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... cumentary/
Streaming on Peacock starting today, March 18.AUSTIN — The Stormy Daniels affair that in 2018 consumed Donald Trump’s presidency — after his attorney Michael Cohen violated the law by paying $130,000 to the adult-film star to keep silent — may feel like old news. But it’s far from over. And that was abundantly clear at this month’s South by Southwest premiere of the new documentary “Stormy,” where Daniels arrived as a surprise guest accompanied by two large security guards who surveyed the room at all times.
The guards, along with bomb-sniffing dogs and off-duty police officers, were a reminder of the paranoia that has haunted Daniels for six years, ever since she spoke out about her alleged one-night stand with the former president, then fought back against him in a defamation trial.
She’s still speaking out.
“F--- Trump,” an emotional Daniels said as her final message while exiting the stage. She was shaking with tears throughout the Q&A.
"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is to be controlled by all that the coward fears… To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies." -Octavia E. Butler
Bragg Manhattan DA charges tfg? Hush money. tfg “INDICATED!”
Buncha stuff trump wanted excluded won't be excluded. Motions denied! Adam's thread has good info and there are embedded links to the actual rulings for the IAALs among us. Hoo boy ya gotta read the clips Adam posted. It's pretty brutal - like saying nope you tried to argue these evidentiary things already and you're trying to do it again so NOPE. LOL
Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark Twain