Sam the Centipede wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:30 am
I wonder why Mike Pence acted correctly?
One of the interesting things I have thought off and on is that Turnip always pushes people to their Moral Breaking point. There is always a point where you just cannot lie to yourself or compromise your principles "for the greater good" anymore, and Turnip always pushes people to that point.
In a point that is rarely commented on, he tried to get Bill Barr to say that the election was stolen on December 18th so he could activate an executive order and effectively cancel the election, and Barr refused to do it. There was reports of a major disagreement on December 18th, but the Media stepped around saying what it was about. But since he had been investigating the election with regard to that Executive order, it was obvious to me that Trump wanted him to cancel the election. And Barr had been pushed to his Moral Limit and would not step over that line.
Pence had been pushed to his limit. We know he consulted Dan Quayle about this, and said "you don't know the position I am in." Turnip had pushed him to the edge of his moral limit and was pressuring him to go over that line. And he just could not. It would have given the lie to the whole "I'm still a Christian and supporting stuff for the greater good and supporting the law" thing.
Another thing Pence did, by the way, was refuse to leave the Capitol because he didn't trust people to either refuse to let him back in or somehow say the certification had been abandoned for the day because he had left. People pooh poohed it at the time but I think he was doing his best to do the right thing and stop this. He was at his limit and doing right.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:52 am
by Dave from down under
But since then he has needed to show deference to the orange Mussolini or risk his well-being
The Fake Electors
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 8:27 am
by Sam the Centipede
I think that's the most plausible explanation, thanks. It is depressing how many ordinarily decent (for some value of "decent") people will suspend their morals when carried along by groupthink or by career advancement. It's always easier when the morals are loosened incrementally - from accepting a free dinner to a full-on bribe, for example - but, as you say, ultimately the person's decency might show through.
The point about Pence's positive actions (as opposed to the negative action of not insurrecting) in staying put, etc. are significant, and to his credit and the Republican Party's shame. He (correctly) did not trust his scummy colleagues to do the right thing.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:05 am
by Tiredretiredlawyer
Spot on analysis!
The Fake Electors
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:44 am
by Rolodex
I don't disagree that Pence was probably the straw that didn't break the camel's back. I'm not sure how much the riot pushed him in that direction. Maybe not at all. Would he have waffled if there hadn't been an invasion? Probably not, but we'll never know. I think the riot may have made the long game (confusion - feigned or not - on the part of the Repubulicans...which may have been part of what trump meant when he told DoJ just say the election was screwed up and the R's will do the rest) harder to play out. It ended up not getting a chance to play out because of Pence.
Interesting discussion about how trump pushes people to their moral breaking point. You learn who has one (Pence) and who doesn't (Meadows). The incremental nature of how that works is so insidious; it's the old frog in the boiling water scenario.
Integrity was always the number one lesson I pounded into my kids. They were sick of hearing about it but it's so incredibly important and of course undeveloped brains don't understand that. My older kid who's 37 has mentioned it over the years. He used to call me when he had a hard decision to make between the right thing and the easy thing. I just was glad that things like that were even a struggle for him when the easy thing is so...easy.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:53 am
by Suranis
Rolodex wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:44 am
I'm not sure how much the riot pushed him in that direction. Maybe not at all.
It didn't do anything. He had opened the envelopes and handed the counts over to the Senate before the Riot started. Turnip and the rest were making speeches but that wouldn't have affected what was going on.
If he had waffled, the envelope opening wouldn't have happened when the Riot hit.
Rolodex wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:44 am
I'm not sure how much the riot pushed him in that direction. Maybe not at all.
It didn't do anything. He had opened the envelopes and handed the counts over to the Senate before the Riot started. Turnip and the rest were making speeches but that wouldn't have affected what was going on.
If he had waffled the envelope opening wouldn't have happened when the Riot hit.
Thanks. I guess my memory is jumbled up with so many things going on in the trumpdisaster. I was just doing some regular scrolling on twitter and all of a sudden people were posting vids of the Capitol. I happened to get to the PBS live feed and watched in horror and confusion. I did eventually turn on the tv because I figured it was big enough news to be there (I never have the tv on during the day). Holy smokes the last time I remembered a feeling like that was watching the challenger explosion live on tv.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 1:38 pm
by raison de arizona
Rolodex wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 1:25 pm
Thanks. I guess my memory is jumbled up with so many things going on in the trumpdisaster. I was just doing some regular scrolling on twitter and all of a sudden people were posting vids of the Capitol. I happened to get to the PBS live feed and watched in horror and confusion. I did eventually turn on the tv because I figured it was big enough news to be there (I never have the tv on during the day). Holy smokes the last time I remembered a feeling like that was watching the challenger explosion live on tv.
+WTC. Those would be my Big Three.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:22 pm
by Frater I*I
Rolodex wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 1:25 pm
Thanks. I guess my memory is jumbled up with so many things going on in the trumpdisaster. I was just doing some regular scrolling on twitter and all of a sudden people were posting vids of the Capitol. I happened to get to the PBS live feed and watched in horror and confusion. I did eventually turn on the tv because I figured it was big enough news to be there (I never have the tv on during the day). Holy smokes the last time I remembered a feeling like that was watching the challenger explosion live on tv.
06JAN21 was the first time I ever felt ashamed to be a US citizen....
And the first time I ever felt my time in the Corps was wasted...
Rolodex wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 1:25 pm
Thanks. I guess my memory is jumbled up with so many things going on in the trumpdisaster. I was just doing some regular scrolling on twitter and all of a sudden people were posting vids of the Capitol. I happened to get to the PBS live feed and watched in horror and confusion. I did eventually turn on the tv because I figured it was big enough news to be there (I never have the tv on during the day). Holy smokes the last time I remembered a feeling like that was watching the challenger explosion live on tv.
06JAN21 was the first time I ever felt ashamed to be a US citizen....
And the first time I ever felt my time in the Corps was wasted...
Honestly, I kind of didn't want to see it on a larger screen.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:57 pm
by keith
Suranis wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:53 am
If he had waffled, the envelope opening wouldn't have happened when the Riot hit.
Agreed.
In fact, had he waffled the riot may not have happened at all.
IIRC, turnip accused Pence of not doing the right thing and then sent his troops into battle.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:24 pm
by raison de arizona
Smile for your mugshot!
► Show Spoiler
Group photo shows Michigan GOP electors on day they signed false certificate
A photo, obtained by the Michigan Attorney General's office and released Thursday, shows a group of 16 Republicans posing together for a picture the day they signed a certificate falsely claiming Donald Trump won the 2020 presidential election.
The picture had been discussed during preliminary examinations in Ingham County District Court on Tuesday and Wednesday as a state judge weighed whether criminal charges against six of the false Trump electors should proceed to trial.
Attorney General Dana Nessel's office released the image after an open records request by The Detroit News. The photo was taken on Dec. 14, 2020, inside the Michigan Republican Party headquarters in downtown Lansing, where the GOP electors met to sign certificates stating Trump had won the election that he actually lost.
In fact, the Board of State Canvassers had already certified Democrat Joe Biden's 154,000-vote victory over Trump, and the Democratic electors were meeting on Dec. 14, 2020, inside the Michigan Capitol.
Not meeting in the state Capitol but at the party HQ ought to have been a signal to them that something fishy was going on
The Fake Electors
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:58 am
by Dave from down under
They were all in with the conspiracy to overthrow “We the people”..
The Fake Electors
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:09 am
by Sam the Centipede
RTH10260 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:24 am
Not meeting in the state Capitol but at the party HQ ought to have been a signal to them that something fishy was going on
If their critical thinking skills were developed enough to deduce that, those skills would have kept them from being part of the doomed insurrectionist conspiracy.
They are red sheep following the orange wolf to the barbecue after his invitation to "come to dinner." Y'know, the common red clay, morons.
And, the argument is bolstered by the decades long parade of former friends, relatives, employees and confidantes who have come forward to say that they had been close to him then, but now can not follow him any further.
Almost all of these are people once touted by the orange one as the best and brightest, only to be now labelled as losers that he never really liked or trusted, or even knew very well.
Kenneth Chesebro, the right-wing attorney who helped devise the Trump campaign’s fake electors plot in 2020, concealed a secret Twitter account from Michigan prosecutors, hiding dozens of damning posts that undercut his statements to investigators about his role in the election subversion scheme, a CNN KFile investigation has found.
Chesebro denied using Twitter, now known as the platform X, or having any “alternate IDs” when directly asked by Michigan investigators last year during his cooperation session, according to recordings of his interview obtained by CNN.
But CNN linked Chesebro to the secret account based on numerous matching details — including biographical information regarding his work, family, travels and investments. The anonymous account, BadgerPundit, also showed a keen interest in the Electoral College process and lined up with Chesebro’s private activities at the time.
The Twitter posts reveal that even before the 2020 election, and then just two days after polls closed, Chesebro promoted a far more aggressive election subversion strategy than he later let on in his Michigan interview.
Chesebro’s lawyers confirmed to CNN that the BadgerPundit account belonged to Chesebro, describing it as his “random stream of consciousness” where he was “spitballing” theories about the election – but insisted that it was separate from his legal work for Trump’s campaign.
“When he was doing volunteer work for the campaign, he was very specific and hunkered-down into being the lawyer that he is, and gave specific kinds of legal advice based on things that he thought were legitimate legal challenges, versus BadgerPundit, who is this other guy over there, just being a goof,” said Robert Langford, an attorney for Chesebro.
I haven't read all of the article, but at first glance it seems pretty damning.
Exclusive: Key figure in fake electors plot concealed damning posts on secret Twitter account from investigators
It's pretty long, haven't read it all yet.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:28 pm
by Dr. Ken
So will he be getting charged with perjury? I hope they put the screws to him. Perjury, Obstruction of Justice, etc. Force him to make an even more desperate deal and flip on trump.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:46 pm
by p0rtia
Al of the above, except for the implication that this is new news. The BadgerPundit stuff came out a while ago.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:49 pm
by sugar magnolia
It doesn't matter why, or how, of even when he had the secret account, or what BadgerPundit had to say about anything at this point. What matters is that he bald-faced lied in response to a point blank question, under oath.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:51 pm
by AndyinPA
Couldn't this make him less of a prosecution witness?
The Fake Electors
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:55 pm
by sugar magnolia
AndyinPA wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:51 pm
Couldn't this make him less of a prosecution witness?
If he flips with information that can be proven some other way he won't even have to testify. I'd think the information would probably be more important than the testifying.
The Fake Electors
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 4:10 pm
by raison de arizona
Heartland Signal @HeartlandSignal wrote:
NEW VIDEO: As part of a civil settlement with former Trump attorneys Kenneth Chesebro and Jim Troupis, documentation released today show Wisconsin Republicans acting as fake electors and casting ballot for former President Donald Trump on Dec. 14, 2020.
