The Weight-Management Thread

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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#101

Post by Slim Cognito »

I'd read about the body going into starvation mode during a diet, which drops the metabolic rate making the process that much harder. Is this saying that the body stays in starvation mode even after the weight is dropped and maintenance begins?

If I'm reading it correctly, that sucks! If I'm not, it still sucks.

The only thing that's worked for me? A debilitating GI infection followed by stress from trump as president. I don't recommend it.

I expect it will be followed by quick weight (re) gain as soon as the bastard is out of office.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#102

Post by MN-Skeptic »

Slim Cognito wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:55 pm
I'd read about the body going into starvation mode during a diet, which drops the metabolic rate making the process that much harder. Is this saying that the body stays in starvation mode even after the weight is dropped and maintenance begins?

If I'm reading it correctly, that sucks! If I'm not, it still sucks.

The only thing that's worked for me? A debilitating GI infection followed by stress from trump as president. I don't recommend it.

I expect it will be followed by quick weight (re) gain as soon as the bastard is out of office.
Isn't the intermittent fasting diet supposed to minimize this effect?
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#103

Post by Slim Cognito »

MN-Skeptic wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:56 pm
Slim Cognito wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:55 pm
I'd read about the body going into starvation mode during a diet, which drops the metabolic rate making the process that much harder. Is this saying that the body stays in starvation mode even after the weight is dropped and maintenance begins?

If I'm reading it correctly, that sucks! If I'm not, it still sucks.

The only thing that's worked for me? A debilitating GI infection followed by stress from trump as president. I don't recommend it.

I expect it will be followed by quick weight (re) gain as soon as the bastard is out of office.
Isn't the intermittent fasting diet supposed to minimize this effect?
That's what I've heard but it takes a stronger person than me to stick to it. I lasted one week.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#104

Post by Foggy »

I'm hoping a rigorous exercise routine will keep my metabolic rate up so I keep burning them calories.

Time will tell.

:?
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#105

Post by p0rtia »

Danraft wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:28 am
Just did a quick skim of the last page or so because I'd hinted to P0rtia that I'd share some of the research findings that have potentially large implications in weight management and she told me about this thread.

I do an inordinate amount of scientific journal research, and the word of the week (related to this topic) would be "Allostasis", which is a refinement of the concept of homeostasis.

In homeostasis, certain cellular environmental variables (ie: body temperature, blood pH, oxygen and CO2 levels, etc) are considered to kept in narrow parameters by regulatory methods activated when the variable starts to go " out-of-bounds". For instance, high body temperature activates the secretion of sweat to lose heat through evaporative cooling.
The concept of allostasis arose in 1988 and includes that an organism's various overlapping regulatory systems is actually often acting in a predictive manner (think Pavlonian production of saliva before food is present) and also accounts for manners of dysregulation.

Related to weight management would be adipostasis which, as the name implies is the system for fat storage management.
1. The amount of fat the body has in reserve is monitored by cellular and nerve signals from each fat storage area.
2. The total amount of "target fat storage" varies by environmental needs (nutrient availability, etc), stress events (by several mechanisms), life stage (age, pregnancy, etc), and other cues.

And, this fascinates me.... When the nerves responsible for carrying the signal of how much fat (and of what type) is stored in that region are snipped or chemically blocked, two things happen.
A. The amount of fat stored in that disconnected region increases dramatically (local effect).
B. The total amount of fat stored in other fat storage locations increases to replace the amount of now "missing" fat storage (global effect).

Holy crap. The implications are important. Set aside the perhaps most important part of "how can we change the target fat storage amount?" And, take a mental walk with me.

This means the efficiency of feedback is potentially quite important. And, this efficiency seems to be variable based on adaptation responses and dysfunction. It also explains, in combination with the global target of adipose storage why weight loss can be a struggle with yo-yo dieat effects.

Exercise not only burns calories, but increases blood flow to areas -- and that also supports neural function. And, nerves can be pinched or lose efficiency that could be restored with range of motion activities like yoga, Pilate's, massage and other techniques.

At least, that's my take on it...thoughts?
Busy month -- just now finding the time to give this post the attention it deserves.

On the "everything is coincidence" front, my own reading on weight-management issues recently turned up the concept of allostatis. Which was an exciting moment for me personally. I love it when something I've been trying to find words to describe for YEARS in the face of universal scorn becomes 1) one word and 2) cutting edge.

I consider myself a statistic. One of millions who put on a lot of weight for one reason or another, only to find out that going back is incredibly difficult. Part of that being because the system that regulated my weight homeostasis was, I believe broken/working against me (cf. "hunger/satiety response"). Which is what I think you mean by "manners of dysregulation"? So.

Adopostatis. Another word I am glad to hear for the first time, thank you. It puts a label on all the things I've learned about the hormonal theory of weight gain/loss, leptin, insulin resistance, leptin resistance.

Wow! The concept of local and global responses to interrupted signalling is incredible. I instantly see a far distant future in which folks will get a treatment for "fewer adipocytes on my chin, please!" I won't live to see it, but yeah--way cool.

Anything is way cool that deals with the actual way the body works (as opposed to pop-psych).

Not sure I get the connection to exercise, though. What are you suggesting?

Love this type of discussion! :bighug:
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#106

Post by p0rtia »

Foggy wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:40 am
I'm hoping a rigorous exercise routine will keep my metabolic rate up so I keep burning them calories.

Time will tell.

:?
I do regular exercise (at least in winter when in Fla) for the same reason. I'm not at all sure it has creates a calorie deficit, but I know it makes me feel great and makes whatever weight-loss strategy I'm doing more effective.

Lots of cool science you're probably familiar with about how the body gets more efficient at burning calories the more you exercise. And about how calorie restriction by itself can cause your metabolism to slow, so that it will burn fewer calories.

Just got back from a bike ride, so I'm feeling smug.

Excelsior!
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#107

Post by Foggy »

I don't ride my bike unless it's at least 70°. Nutcases around here riding when it's 40°!


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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#108

Post by p0rtia »

Foggy wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:47 am
I don't ride my bike unless it's at least 70°. Nutcases around here riding when it's 40°!


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72 F at 8 AM in Fla. :towel:
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#109

Post by Danraft »

I ride regardless. I have never cycled in negative degrees (F), but I regularly cycle in the teens.

And, keeping pumping means the hood comes down, the knit cap comes off etc as the heat needs to escape.

Cycling on ice requires some new skills, but the gyroscopic action of spinning wheels is pretty stabilizing.


I should maybe start a thread of my Dan-ism's and scientific journal article implications.

Now that I am actually writing grants I understand even more how little time most have to consume the amount and broad coverage of articles I have -- which helps explain why so much is missed.

That, and, most use an article service that sorts and filters based on "impact factor"-- sounds reasonable, except that this last set of Novel prize winning articles almost all had poor "impact factor.

And, last, but hardly least, is the "keywords" or tags that is placed on an article for search engines are minimally useful.
I have started logging and tagging my own way and would love to create a more useful means of assigning article relevance based on how the article is actually used (cited by other articles) and what keywords are in the citing articles to give a more accurate relevance score.

Then, extraction of evidentiary statements, tagged with AI generated relevant tags which are vector weighted by other means... It's time to automate scientific discovery
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#110

Post by Danraft »

Ok, I've had a few discussions wherein I struggled to explain why insulin was so predominantly important in the brain for neurological reasons and why it had so many diverse effects.

Losing weight and getting control of body weight is difficult, IMO, because it is swimming against the current. That is to say that the system is built for the brain to work at the request of the body's needs-- not the other way around.

A brain is a powerful tool that wasn't built to do sophisticated lawyering and any number of activities. Its original purpose was to assure survival by successful completion of feeding behavior. Its resources of memory, cognition, executive function are recruited for that purpose.

The inputs of olfactory and gustatory (smell and taste) are altered to encourage successful feeding behavior.

Risk-taking and impulsivity and rest and action all act at the behest of feeding behavior.

I think this one paper, as odd as it may seem to look to insects to understand the pervasive presence of insulin's control over cognition and seemingly unrelated areas, is a super introductory read.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 00353/full
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#111

Post by P.K. »

I've lost about 15 pounds in the last six months, but I wouldn't recommend my methods. The first 5 or so were thanks to the "Stress Diet" - when I get very stressed or depressed I tend to not eat. Stress also led to high blood pressure, and I was placed on a blood pressure med that killed my appetite, made food taste weird, and gave me stomach upset. I still need to lose at least another 15 pounds, so I'll stay on the med (plus my blood pressure is excellent thanks to the med).

I'm still exercising (strength training/weight lifting and powerwalking with running intervals) so I'm pretty sure I'm losing primarily fat and not muscle. I noticed a few weeks ago that my cheekbones were visible again! Someday I might be able to see my hipbones again. :dance:
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#112

Post by p0rtia »

:bighug:
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#113

Post by Volkonski »

Weighed 223.6 lbs this morning so I have resumed weight loss after stalling during the holidays. :) Slow and steady is my motto.

We have been on the keto diet for a year now.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#114

Post by Volkonski »

We had been using the HEB in store bakery's Protein Bread in our Keto diets. Last week they had something new- Pro Keto Bread just 4 net carbs per slice.

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The texture and appearance is very close to regular wheat breads. You can buy the loaf not sliced or they will slice it for you.

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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#115

Post by Chilidog »

I found some high fiber, low net carb tortillas the other day.

I was about to buy them when I looked at the ingredients list.

I am not a termite. I do not eat cellulose.

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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#116

Post by Volkonski »

Chilidog wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:39 pm
I found some high fiber, low net carb tortillas the other day.

I was about to buy them when I looked at the ingredients list.

I am not a termite. I do not eat cellulose.
Cellulose occurs naturally in many common foods.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#117

Post by Chilidog »

But not in tortillas. 😎

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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#118

Post by Volkonski »

Chilidog wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:18 pm
But not in tortillas. 😎
Corn and whole wheat tortillas contain cellulose. ;)
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#119

Post by Danraft »

Just an FYI, pretty consistent study results show that exercising before breakfast yields 40% more weight loss.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#120

Post by p0rtia »

Danraft wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:55 pm
Just an FYI, pretty consistent study results show that exercising before breakfast yields 40% more weight loss.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#121

Post by Jez »

Danraft wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:55 pm
Just an FYI, pretty consistent study results show that exercising before breakfast yields 40% more weight loss.
That would presume one is not a shuffling zombie barely able to find the coffee pot in the morning.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#122

Post by p0rtia »

Gonna jot this down regarding exercise before eating before I forget it.

1) The body building folks are all over the issue of eating after exercise (rather than before), which, they say, promotes weight-management because your body is in a state where you are maximizing the burning of whatever fuel you're eating (and I think they're talking carbs). By exercising, they usually mean weight training. To me, "eating after exercise" is actually not the same philosophy as "exercising before you eat." I'm not quibbling, I'm making a distinction of approach; members of the body building community do not tend to have the same issues or eat in the same patterns as a) normal folks trying to reduce excess body fat or b) folks who are overweight/obese.

2) In my quite vast experience with weight gain and loss over half a century, exercise has had very little direct effect on weight loss. Anecdotal, of course, but not unusual in the weight-management community. I exercise a lot, fat or slim. Exercise makes me feel great; it suppresses the appetite; it improves my mental health, it makes it easier for me to stay on plan, and I like to think that it maximizes the effects of whatever eating plan I'm on, but no: I have never seen a hint of a direct correlation in terms of calories in = calories out (i.e., burning calories by exercise does not increase my weight loss).

3) I don't eat breakfast. At least three times a week all winter I play tennis first thing in the morning, and other mornings I bike. I may or may not eat lunch. Back to point (1), the body builders are saying that you have to eat _right_ after exercising for the magic weight-management effect to occur.

4) If exercising before breakfast per se lead to a 40% increase in weight loss (compared to what?), I think I would have wasted away years ago.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#123

Post by RoadScholar »

I too (also) read about a study that had folks eat as usual, exercise as usual, but one group exercised before eating, one after.

The group exercising beforehand lost more weight.

I’ve been lifting weights to build muscle, and making small changes in diet. Yasso chocolate frozen bars for dessert: 80 calories. Stevia instead of sugar. Fewer carbs, but not zero. Platter instead of sandwich.

I’ve lost 15 lbs., even while gaining muscle weight.

Every time I tried an intake-reduction-only diet I failed.

YMMV.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#124

Post by Danraft »

Not on my 'puter (my father's lung cancer relapsed, he just finished another round of targeted radiation therapy, and has been exhausted- mom found him on the bathroom floor disoriented)...

IIRC, it is a weight training specific Cascade originating from the IL-15 (interleukin 15) signaling and miRNA stimulated from that nexus. (Yep, just did a Google of "IL-15, weight loss", and that's what I recall. In particular, my (off the record) theory is that it rescues the gamma-chain dependent endosomal sorting that is also often dysfunctional in insulin resistance.

My analysis and deeper study departs quickly from the "weight-loss" orientation and is instead seeking the mechanistic pathways, interlinked systems, and granular outward facing metabolomic markers in body fluids that may indicate system responses to stimulus.

Biological systems are inherently state and genome dependent. So, P0rtia, I understand the frustration with the current SotA weight-loss interpretative interventions.

I'm working my way through a bevy of microbiome articles, and there wasn't need to keyword tag those preprandial-exercise articles-- I'm sure some similar ones will surface soon.
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Re: The Weight-Management Thread

#125

Post by p0rtia »

Exactly. :bighug: Hence my reaction to the casual phrasing.

You should hear me on "Breakfast is the most important meal of the day."

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