Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

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Volkonski
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Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#1

Post by Volkonski » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:29 pm

Notre Dame assessed for structural damage after fire extinguished

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... laze-paris
Laurent Nunez, a junior interior minister, said on Tuesday that the primary concern of French authorities was identifying weaknesses in the centuries-old structure.

“We have identified some vulnerabilities in the structure … notably in the vault and the north transept pinion that needs securing,” Nunez said. He said this work would take 48 hours and residents of five buildings around the north transept were being evacuated.

Architects have identified three main holes in the structure, in the locations of the spire, the transept and the vault of the north transept. Most of the wooden roof beams have been burned, and parts of the concrete vaulting holding up the roof have collapsed.

:snippity:

French interior minister, Christophe Castaner, said the cathedral was “under permanent surveillance because it can still budge.”
There is also water damage.


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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#2

Post by Volkonski » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:57 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/worl ... ation.html
A spokesman for the cathedral said it would take at least 48 hours before the building was safe to enter.

:snippity:

The most urgent measure needed, said Dany Sandron, a professor of art history and architecture at Sorbonne University, “is to put an umbrella on top of the cathedral, because the vaults are at risk in the open air.”

:snippity:

Mr. Létoffé, the construction expert, said earlier that he expected full restoration work to take 10 to 15 years.

:snippity:

But the roof, a vast wooden framework covered with sheets of lead, appeared to be largely gone, he said. Earlier tests on the roof had showed that most of the structure was made of the same oak and chestnut beams assembled by the original builders, Mr. Fonquernie said.


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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#3

Post by Volkonski » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:07 pm

Image


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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#4

Post by Sam the Centipede » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:00 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:29 pm
Notre Dame assessed for structural damage after fire extinguished
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... laze-paris
Architects have identified three main holes in the structure, in the locations of the spire, the transept and the vault of the north transept. Most of the wooden roof beams have been burned, and parts of the concrete vaulting holding up the roof have collapsed.
Does the vaulting support the roof? I thought the roof trusses are typically supported on the walls and the vaulting is to provide a heavenly ceiling, supporting nothing but itself. On the photo I see no obvious evidence of support for roof timbers by the vaulting.

Not an architect, not a historian, not an architectural historian, so I really don't know.

Even clearing up the mess at roof level is going to be a major undertaking, as is providing Interim weather protection and safe access for workers, and that's before any actual restoration starts.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#5

Post by AndyinPA » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:06 pm

I don't know much about architectural reconstruction either, but I wonder if they will leave the windows during reconstruction. I would think it would be difficult to remove them, but I wonder if it would be safer.

My daughter is an architect and civil engineer, so maybe she would have some ideas.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#6

Post by Mr. Gneiss » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:46 am

This story certainly provides some hope for a complete and accurate reconstruction. An art historian created a 3D point cloud of the cathedral.

Four years ago, an art historian used lasers to digitally map Notre Dame Cathedral. His work could help save it
Andrew Tallon, a professor of art at Vassar College, used lasers to painstakingly scan the cathedral in 2015, giving us a nearly perfect digital replica of the Gothic structure. And his work could help architects and engineers rebuild it after Monday's fire.

Tallon studied Gothic architecture and sought to understand how medieval builders erected some of Europe's great cathedrals. So he created a spatial map of Notre Dame using more than a billion laser-measured points.

Even though Tallon died in December, his digital model will be crucial for restoration efforts because it details exactly what the church looked like before the fire's destruction.

"If (restorers) have any questions about how it was built before, they can look at the scan and measure every single thing," said Dan Edleson, principal of building information modeling firm STEREO. The scans are a "very accurate representation to the level that until a few years ago nobody could do."



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#7

Post by Sam the Centipede » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:07 am

There's a lot to be said for not rushing everything to completion; better to create long term jobs and a reservoir of skilled craftsmen and laborers.

Many buildings have partially collapsed in the past. Until the 20th century, rebuilding would be exploited as an opportunity to implement new techniques, new fashions, new requirements. I think it would be good to see French architects doing something different with some aspects of Notre-Dame de Paris now they have that opportunity. A different spire, or no spire. Steel framing for the roof instead of wood. That sort of thing. It is important to appreciate that although this building was started in the 12th century, it is now a building of the 21st century. Every standing historic building is also a modern building.

Notre-Dame de Paris will probably be sorted before Gaudi's basilica of La Sagrada Familian Barcelona is completed. So many years to produce something so uninspiring and unnecessary.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#8

Post by Flatpointhigh » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:50 am

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:00 pm
Volkonski wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:29 pm
Notre Dame assessed for structural damage after fire extinguished
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... laze-paris
Architects have identified three main holes in the structure, in the locations of the spire, the transept and the vault of the north transept. Most of the wooden roof beams have been burned, and parts of the concrete vaulting holding up the roof have collapsed.
Does the vaulting support the roof? I thought the roof trusses are typically supported on the walls and the vaulting is to provide a heavenly ceiling, supporting nothing but itself. On the photo I see no obvious evidence of support for roof timbers by the vaulting.

Not an architect, not a historian, not an architectural historian, so I really don't know.

Even clearing up the mess at roof level is going to be a major undertaking, as is providing Interim weather protection and safe access for workers, and that's before any actual restoration starts.
According to French Officials, there aren't enough oak trees to replace the beams of the roof - Over 600 trees were utilized



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#9

Post by Hurtzi » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:09 am

Flatpointhigh wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:50 am

According to French Officials, there aren't enough oak trees to replace the beams of the roof - Over 600 trees were utilized
Nonsense. This French Official must have studied at Trump University.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#10

Post by Foggy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:43 am

I walk past more than a thousand oak trees every day, but France can't have them. :fingerwag:

In actual fact, Rawly is known as the "City of Oaks". :blink:

Learn something new every dang day.


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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#11

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:43 am

Flatpointhigh wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:50 am
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:00 pm
Volkonski wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:29 pm
Notre Dame assessed for structural damage after fire extinguished
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... laze-paris
Does the vaulting support the roof? I thought the roof trusses are typically supported on the walls and the vaulting is to provide a heavenly ceiling, supporting nothing but itself. On the photo I see no obvious evidence of support for roof timbers by the vaulting.

Not an architect, not a historian, not an architectural historian, so I really don't know.

Even clearing up the mess at roof level is going to be a major undertaking, as is providing Interim weather protection and safe access for workers, and that's before any actual restoration starts.
According to French Officials, there aren't enough oak trees to replace the beams of the roof - Over 600 trees were utilized
It's not that there aren't enough, it's that the ones they planted (at Versailles?) a couple hundred years ago specifically to replace these if necessary aren't big enough.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#12

Post by Foggy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:14 pm

Tallon ... created a spatial map of Notre Dame using more than a billion laser-measured points.

Even though Tallon died in December, his digital model will be crucial for restoration efforts because it details exactly what the church looked like before the fire's destruction.

"If (restorers) have any questions about how it was built before, they can look at the scan and measure every single thing," said Dan Edleson, principal of building information modeling firm STEREO. The scans are a "very accurate representation to the level that until a few years ago nobody could do."
That is incredible and awesome and I live in a world far beyond the scope of my imagination.


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Res Ipsa
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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#13

Post by Res Ipsa » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:29 pm

They should buy all of the Flex Tape.

Image

That stuff will fix anything.


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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#14

Post by much ado » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:42 pm

Foggy wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:14 pm
Tallon ... created a spatial map of Notre Dame using more than a billion laser-measured points.

Even though Tallon died in December, his digital model will be crucial for restoration efforts because it details exactly what the church looked like before the fire's destruction.

"If (restorers) have any questions about how it was built before, they can look at the scan and measure every single thing," said Dan Edleson, principal of building information modeling firm STEREO. The scans are a "very accurate representation to the level that until a few years ago nobody could do."
That is incredible and awesome and I live in a world far beyond the scope of my imagination.
I think that there should be a small memorial plaque honoring Tallon's foresight in the rebuilt Notre Dame.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#15

Post by Volkonski » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:52 pm

https://www.courthousenews.com/official ... e-in-fire/
Paris Firefighters’ spokesman Lt.-Col. Gabriel Plus said that even though they are “in good condition … there is a risk for the gables that are no longer supported by the frame.”

Firefighters removed statues inside the gables, or support walls, above the rose windows to protect them, and took care not to spray water too hard on the delicate stained glass, Plus said.

Scaffolding erected for a renovation of the spire and roof that was already underway must be properly removed because of its weight and because it is now “crucially deformed,” he added.

The cathedral is still being monitored closely by firefighters and experts to determine how much damage the structure suffered and what needs to be dismantled to avoid collapse.


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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#16

Post by AndyinPA » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:20 pm

What used to be and what to hope it will be again.

https://www.360cities.net/image/france- ... -cathedral



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#17

Post by Volkonski » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:22 pm

In this drone video you can see workers removing statues on top of the ends of the transept.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#18

Post by Res Ipsa » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:44 pm

Best cock snatching I've seen all day:



Thanks pal.

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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#19

Post by Whatever4 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:47 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:22 pm
In this drone video you can see workers removing statues on top of the ends of the transept.

The scaffolding is interesting with the roofs and spire no longer there.


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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#20

Post by Volkonski » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:13 pm

During Notre Dame rebuild, "ephemeral" wooden cathedral to be constructed in esplanade, chief priest says

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/during-not ... esplanade/
To give the faithful somewhere to congregate next to Notre Dame, he suggested: "Can I not build an ephemeral cathedral on the esplanade (in front of Notre Dame)?"

Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo had backed the idea and agreed to give over part of the esplanade to the church for a wooden structure, he said.

Chauvet said the wooden "cathedral" would host priests who could address some of the millions of tourists who throng the original 850-year-old Gothic cathedral each year.


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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#21

Post by AndyinPA » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:34 pm

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. We've been there a couple times and it's always crowded. They are going to need the room for workers once they know what they are doing (and I doubt it will be done in five years; they haven't even figured out how to cover it over yet). The idea just feels wrong to me.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#22

Post by Mikedunford » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:52 pm

I suspect that the priests will be outside with the crowd most of the time - and that most of the tourism will be done from along the Left Bank anyway. But I recall from my visits that they usually have priests available for confession and counselling, and I suspect they want to make sure they can keep at least that much available.


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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#23

Post by Mr. Gneiss » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:54 pm

One of the things I am waiting to hear about is whether the limestone has been partially calcinated, esp. areas near the roof subjected to high temperatures.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#24

Post by Sam the Centipede » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:38 am

What are the consequences of such calcination, Mr. Rocks?

I guess the outer layers could be converted to quicklime, which would not have the strength of raw limestone and would probably erode away, especially when exposed to rain? That would leave an unsightly surface, but it wouldn't affect the hearts of the blocks in the main parts of the walls, especially where there was some cooling by the sapeur-pompiers' water jets.

As I recall from seeing 18th and 19th century lime kilns, it takes quite a lot of effort and serious amounts of coal to convert crushed limestone to quicklime (for use as agricultural fertilizer or the basis of lime mortar).

By the burning roof, above the vaulting, clearly there could be more serious structurally significant fire damage to the blockwork, but i expect the renovators might replace the upper two (or so) courses with new stone to provide the best footings for the new roof. I think that replacement would be relatively straightforward: lift out old square block, clean up, a dab of mortar, lift in new block.



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Re: Rebuilding Notre Dame de Paris

#25

Post by Mr. Gneiss » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:43 am

Just as you say Mr. Legs. Although it usually takes days in a lime kiln to make quicklime from limestone, the 9 hours of intense heat may have created a rind of powdery quicklime. I'm just thinking out loud that if that happened in critical sections of the stone arches, there could be structural failures.



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