Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

User avatar
MsDaisy
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:30 pm

Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#1

Post by MsDaisy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:20 am

Is women going bare-chested in this resort town the same as men going shirtless?
By Lynh Bul - WaPo
A federal judge in Maryland is scheduled to hear arguments Friday morning about “whether public sensibilities are accurately reflected” in an Ocean City ordinance that bans bare female chests in public places.

The hearing is the latest in the legal battle between the popular resort destination arguing it wants to protect its family-friendly image and a Maryland woman who says the ban violates equal protection laws.

Chelsea Eline, who describes herself as a “topfreedom” advocate filed a complaint in federal court earlier this year challenging an “emergency ordinance” Ocean City officials passed in summer 2017 barring bare breasts in public. Lawmakers approved the legislation saying bare breasts in public “is still seen by society as unpalatable” and the ordinance was designed to “protect public sensibilities.”

Lawmakers passed the public nudity ban after Eline, a regular beachgoer who runs a blog called Breasts are Healthy, asked the city to give the beach patrol and police officers clearer instructions so women could sunbathe bare-chested without confrontation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/le ... 9f3ce4f16d

A very interesting question, why should women have to cover their breasts when men can go topless? When I lived in Japan (early 1980s) the Japanese had no problem with nude breasts, saw them on Japanese TV all the time.


Birfers are toast

User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 1257
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III

Re: Is it discrimination to allow topless men at the beach and not women?

#2

Post by fierceredpanda » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:23 am

Americans' prudishness goes back to the fact that the a lot of the first people to come here from Europe (as opposed to the people who were already here) were religious zealots who thought breasts and penises had magical Satan powers.

Seriously, there's a reason the Puritans came here.


"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 14816
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: Northwest part of Semi Blue State

Re: Is it discrimination to allow topless men at the beach and not women?

#3

Post by ZekeB » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:28 am

It wasn’t illegal to stroll through town nude in Oregon when I lived there. The only restriction was that you couldn’t expose yourself in a state of arousal, which discriminated against men in a sense.


Ano, jsou opravdové. - Stormy Daniels

Nech mě domluvit! - Orly Taitz

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 27163
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Re: Is it discrimination to allow topless men at the beach and not women?

#4

Post by Foggy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:07 am

On Venice Beach when I lived there, the women who wanted to be topless sunbathed in the area with the gay men. Problem solved.


Mr. William L. Bryan is the root of a great deal of criminal mischief.
And yet, Mr. Bryan remains at large. :mrgreen:

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 7381
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: Is it discrimination to allow topless men at the beach and not women?

#5

Post by RoadScholar » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:13 am

Ah do love a creative solution. :clap:


The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

User avatar
bob
Posts: 25303
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: Is it discrimination to allow topless men at the beach and not women?

#6

Post by bob » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:17 am

New York State's highest court decided gendered-based topless laws were discriminatory.

In the 1990s. So Maryland may be behind the curve.


Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2

User avatar
Dan1100
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: Is it discrimination to allow topless men at the beach and not women?

#7

Post by Dan1100 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:33 pm

I think there should be a more subjective and discriminatory solution.

Young, fit, attractive people of either gender should be allowed to go topless. The rest of us should keep our shirts on.


“I don’t look to the teachings of Jesus for what my political beliefs should be.”

-Jerry Falwell, Jr.

Grumpy Old Guy
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:24 am
Occupation: Retired, unemployed, never a lawyer

Re: Is it discrimination to allow topless men at the beach and not women?

#8

Post by Grumpy Old Guy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Dan1100 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:33 pm
I think there should be a more subjective and discriminatory solution.

Young, fit, attractive people of either gender should be allowed to go topless. The rest of us should keep our shirts on.
:thumbs:

From one of the second group.



User avatar
Jim
Posts: 3132
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 4:05 pm

Re: Is it discrimination to allow topless men at the beach and not women?

#9

Post by Jim » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:44 pm

Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:38 pm
Dan1100 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:33 pm
I think there should be a more subjective and discriminatory solution.

Young, fit, attractive people of either gender should be allowed to go topless. The rest of us should keep our shirts on.
:thumbs:

From one of the second group.
Ditto :thumbs:



User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 4824
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am
Location: Maybelot

Re: Is it discrimination to allow topless men at the beach and not women?

#10

Post by Maybenaut » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:05 pm

I think the topic title asks the wrong question. It is clearly discrimination because men and women are treated differently under the law. The question is whether the discrimination is lawful.

I think it probably is.



User avatar
MsDaisy
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:30 pm

Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#11

Post by MsDaisy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:27 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:05 pm
I think the topic title asks the wrong question. It is clearly discrimination because men and women are treated differently under the law. The question is whether the discrimination is lawful.

I think it probably is.
Agreed, thread name changed :like:


Birfers are toast

User avatar
Notorial Dissent
Posts: 10906
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#12

Post by Notorial Dissent » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:08 pm

Most of Europe and Brazil among other places don't have a problem with it. Kind of like the all encompassing bathing suits that used to be required. It changed, the suits got less covering, the horses were startled, and they got over it. Kind of like mixed race bathrooms, water fountains, and service units, the public was outraged, affronted, and indignant. And. They. Got. Over. It.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

User avatar
scirreeve
Posts: 2182
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:51 am

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#13

Post by scirreeve » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:36 pm

Not lawful where I live (Oregon). Genitalia mostly lawful too but not everywhere or always.
https://www.wweek.com/portland/article- ... legal.html



User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 27163
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#14

Post by Foggy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:20 am

Hahaha, I've been to the beach in Oregon many times. You go topless there, your little nipples are gonna freeze up solid. Wear a burqa. Wear two burqas, you'll thank me. :lol:

I would never take my shirt off there. Brrr!


Mr. William L. Bryan is the root of a great deal of criminal mischief.
And yet, Mr. Bryan remains at large. :mrgreen:

User avatar
tek
Posts: 2730
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:02 pm
Location: Happy Valley, MA
Occupation: Damned if I know

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#15

Post by tek » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:48 am

Untitled-1.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


A truckload of bricks
In the soft morning light

User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 14816
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: Northwest part of Semi Blue State

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#16

Post by ZekeB » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:56 am

Individual-F wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:20 am
Hahaha, I've been to the beach in Oregon many times. You go topless there, your little nipples are gonna freeze up solid. Wear a burqa. Wear two burqas, you'll thank me. :lol:

I would never take my shirt off there. Brrr!
On the coast, maybe. I lived in the valley and I lived through temperatures of 109+ more than once.


Ano, jsou opravdové. - Stormy Daniels

Nech mě domluvit! - Orly Taitz

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 27163
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#17

Post by Foggy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:10 am

Yeah well, most beaches are on the coast. :daydream:

My brothers lived in Eugene, and we'd go camping down near Florence, across the Suislaw River and down Sand Dunes Rd. to the coast. A half mile hike through the rhododendrons and pines and you came out on the beach, with temperatures in the 50s (on a really nice summer day) and the wind howling at 25 knots or more. You'd have to lean into the wind at a severe angle to even walk.

And the sea water circulates down from Alaska (in NC it comes up from the Caribbean).

My dad was a Navy officer, and I have been a beach rat all my life. The beaches in Oregon, yowza.

Wear three burqas. And bring a blanket. Brrr!


Mr. William L. Bryan is the root of a great deal of criminal mischief.
And yet, Mr. Bryan remains at large. :mrgreen:

User avatar
Sluffy1
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:35 pm

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#18

Post by Sluffy1 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:35 am

I don't like it. I mean, what is the point besides exciting teenage boys.
Why just the beach? What makes "the beach" so special, is it the sand or the water?
Can't be the sun, it's everywhere and too much is not all that good for you.



User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 27163
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#19

Post by Foggy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:01 am

There was a time when teenage boys had very limited access to nekkid boobs. In my day, I had to find someone who could steal their dad's Playboy magazines (my dad didn't subscribe).

Today any kid with Internet access can see a hell of a lot more than nekkid boobs. I don't think today's teenage boys would go to the trouble of visiting the beach just to see a few topless ladies. And some ladies DO want to be topless. Should they be arrested and jailed for it?


Mr. William L. Bryan is the root of a great deal of criminal mischief.
And yet, Mr. Bryan remains at large. :mrgreen:

User avatar
MsDaisy
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#20

Post by MsDaisy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:52 am

Sluffy1 wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:35 am
I don't like it. I mean, what is the point besides exciting teenage boys.
Why just the beach? What makes "the beach" so special, is it the sand or the water?
Can't be the sun, it's everywhere and too much is not all that good for you.
Excited males period are the point. There are many places around the world where bare female breasts, or even total nudity is perfectly normal and no one even takes notice. In Japan they had commercials on the TeeVee of topless mothers in those square Japanese tubs with naked babies advertising soaps or skin stuff. Nursing mothers didn’t hide under blankets or in the bathrooms; they sat on trains, in restaurants, or at bus stops and nursed their babies and it was all perfectly natural.

I think it was horny male religious leaders that made being naked or showing girl boobs sinful and ungodly and therefor forbidden in the public eye. The sight of naked girl boobs might cause one of them to get an uncontrollable and embarrassing erection in public which would of course totally be the woman's fault and that just couldn’t be allowed. That's why women were made to keep their breasts covered up so horny old men & boys could maintain control of their penis. That’s what I think.


Birfers are toast

User avatar
Notorial Dissent
Posts: 10906
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#21

Post by Notorial Dissent » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:06 am

MsDaisy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:52 am
Sluffy1 wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:35 am
I don't like it. I mean, what is the point besides exciting teenage boys.
Why just the beach? What makes "the beach" so special, is it the sand or the water?
Can't be the sun, it's everywhere and too much is not all that good for you.
Excited males period are the point. There are many places around the world where bare female breasts, or even total nudity is perfectly normal and no one even takes notice. In Japan they had commercials on the TeeVee of topless mothers in those square Japanese tubs with naked babies advertising soaps or skin stuff. Nursing mothers didn’t hide under blankets or in the bathrooms; they sat on trains, in restaurants, or at bus stops and nursed their babies and it was all perfectly natural.

I think it was horny male religious leaders that made being naked or showing girl boobs sinful and ungodly and therefor forbidden in the public eye. The sight of naked girl boobs might cause one of them to get an uncontrollable and embarrassing erection in public which would of course totally be the woman's fault and that just couldn’t be allowed. That's why women were made to keep their breasts covered up so horny old men & boys could maintain control of their penis. That’s what I think.
i would go with that, particularly some of the very southern persuasion, Jimmy seems to be a popular name with that in mind. Something about eye of the beholder comes to mind.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 4824
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am
Location: Maybelot

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#22

Post by Maybenaut » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:13 am

Maybe they should pass an ordinance that says nobody can go topless at the beach. That would solve the discrimination issue.

I wonder if this issue would play out differently in the event the Equal Rights Amendment to the constitution gets ratified. Right now, laws resulting in gender-based discrimination face “intermediate scrutiny” by the courts, meaning that the law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest. I think that would likely change after ratification.

The relevant text of the ERA says, “Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.” That would elevate gender discrimination to the same protected status as all other immutable characteristics that currently get “strict scrutiny” review. For strict scrutiny, the government has to show a compelling governmental interest, and that the law is narrowly tailored to meet that interest.

So I guess the question then would be whether the rationale behind the prohibition on exposing female breasts, which usually is to protect public sensibilities or whatever, would be “compelling” even if now it is only considered “important.” Maybe. Maybe not. Given that public sensibilities change, I’m not sure it is even “important” anymore.

It will be interesting to see what the federal judge in this case says about that.



User avatar
pipistrelle
Posts: 5543
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:26 am

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#23

Post by pipistrelle » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:15 am

Yes, and men like Mike Pence, who can't handle being around a woman without Mother on hand. (Which alone disqualifies him for public life, IMO.)



User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 7381
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#24

Post by RoadScholar » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:17 am

Playboy?!! We had ta make do with National Geographic!


The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 14816
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: Northwest part of Semi Blue State

Re: Is discrimination that allows topless men at the beach and not women lawful?

#25

Post by ZekeB » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:30 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:17 am
Playboy?!! We had ta make do with National Geographic!
But you could read National Geographic in school.

I agree with MsDaisy. If looking at a woman's body wasn't such forbidden fruit in our society, the adult entertainment industry wouldn't be near what it is.


Ano, jsou opravdové. - Stormy Daniels

Nech mě domluvit! - Orly Taitz

Post Reply

Return to “Social Issues”