Fogbow

Well, specific Network cards, but ya, I guess they would.

WHICH IS WHY WE NEED TO SUBPEONA THOSE MACHINES TO CHECK IF THE CONSPIRACY SWAPPED OUT THEIR NETWORK CARDS TO COVER THEMSELVES!

neeneko wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:50 am It has been ages since I have had to look at such logs, but don't they also generally include MAC address? That would be something that could be tied back to specific machines.

neeneko wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:50 am

Suranis wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:14 am Plus any such records would be unreadable. It would typically be a mess of "Received Packet from X. Sent packet to Y" There's not really much that you would learn from it without knowing the network structure on the day - which of course would be the next thing subpoenaed. And the internet logs from the internet service providers. And probably their servers...

It has been ages since I have had to look at such logs, but don't they also generally include MAC address? That would be something that could be tied back to specific machines.

Were I a crafty nation-state hacker, I would most certainly spoof my mac addr. FWIW.

Foggy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:03 am

Frater I*I wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:41 pm

covfefe wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:54 am It was a hurricane! An earthquake! A terrible flood! It's not our fault!

LOCUSTS!!!!!!

All the really cool plagues have frogs.

They don't got no plagues in Texas, thankfully. First Born Son lives there.

neeneko wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:50 am

Suranis wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:14 am Plus any such records would be unreadable. It would typically be a mess of "Received Packet from X. Sent packet to Y" There's not really much that you would learn from it without knowing the network structure on the day - which of course would be the next thing subpoenaed. And the internet logs from the internet service providers. And probably their servers...

It has been ages since I have had to look at such logs, but don't they also generally include MAC address? That would be something that could be tied back to specific machines.

MAC addresses would only be available (and only for a short time. The ARP cache is very transitory) for those devices on the same local net as the router. If there were a secondary router, which is not at all uncommon, the MAC addresses would not be sent through to the first router. IOW, MAC addresses are only kept by devices that are directly connected. They are not sent to the ultimate destination along with the data packet.

And I'm not at all sure that the MAC addresses would be included in any log data that was kept.

covfefe wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:00 am

neeneko wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:50 am

Suranis wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:14 am Plus any such records would be unreadable. It would typically be a mess of "Received Packet from X. Sent packet to Y" There's not really much that you would learn from it without knowing the network structure on the day - which of course would be the next thing subpoenaed. And the internet logs from the internet service providers. And probably their servers...

It has been ages since I have had to look at such logs, but don't they also generally include MAC address? That would be something that could be tied back to specific machines.

Were I a crafty nation-state hacker, I would most certainly spoof my mac addr. FWIW.

I think that the Cyber Ninjas and other conspiracy theorists are claiming that the Dominion machines were connected to the internet, contrary to statements released by the Maricopa County Board of Elections. If they were connected, it seems unlikely that the county would spoof their own MAC addresses to fool their own routers. But, perhaps I just don't appreciate the depth of the conspiracy to steal the election from Donald Trump.

The MAC addresses of servers or computers outside the county network would not be available to the county routers.

Just as a note: the MAC addresses are the only thing I really expect to see in some log, as part of the MAC to IP address assignment it may be kept to trace assumed conspiratorial IP addresses back to the assumed origin. But then again, those networklogs are offloaded to a log server. The mental ninjas never asked for network logs... IIRC ISPs are required to keep the IP assignment logs for several months (one year?), but does that regulation also apply to state networks?

noblepa wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:10 am
I think that the Cyber Ninjas and other conspiracy theorists are claiming that the Dominion machines were connected to the internet, contrary to statements released by the Maricopa County Board of Elections. If they were connected, it seems unlikely that the county would spoof their own MAC addresses to fool their own routers. But, perhaps I just don't appreciate the depth of the conspiracy to steal the election from Donald Trump.

The MAC addresses of servers or computers outside the county network would not be available to the county routers.

Cyber Ninjas agreed that the dominion machines were never connected to the internet.

RTH10260 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:37 am Just as a note: the MAC addresses are the only thing I really expect to see in some log, as part of the MAC to IP address assignment it may be kept to trace assumed conspiratorial IP addresses back to the assumed origin. But then again, those networklogs are offloaded to a log server. The mental ninjas never asked for network logs... IIRC ISPs are required to keep the IP assignment logs for several months (one year?), but does that regulation also apply to state networks?

MAC addresses are not sent past the first router they encounter. Therefore, the Maricopa county routers would never see the MAC addresses of the Chinese or Italian (or whoever the crazies are blaming today). IOW, my desktop PC sends its MAC address to my organization's router, which store it, along with my IP address in its ARP (address resolution procotol) cache. The router never, ever sends the MAC address to the next router in the path to where I'm trying to go.

MAC addresses operate at level 1 of the ISO seven layer stack. This is the hardware layer. This is the actual wire over which the data is being transmitted. Routers operate at layer 2 or 3.

The only thing that MAC addresses might conceivably show is whether or not the Dominion machines where connected to the internet. Without knowing the exact topology of Maricopa's network, it is difficult to speculate.

Which routers are the frauditors asking for? In my last organization, the county government of the county where I live, we had a complex network design. At the connection to the internet, the point at which we no longer had control, where what were referred to as edge routers, as they sat at the edge of our network.

Internally, each agency, such as the Sheriff's office, the Fiscal Office, and each separate building there were routers. It was a tree structure. The internal routers communicated to the edge routers on the upstream side and to the desktop PC's and servers on the downstream side. In reality, it is even more complex than that. By the time you get from the outside world to my desktop PC, a packet may have traversed four or five routers. The reverse is true for packets going from my PC to an outside site, such as Microsoft. Those packets will traverse those same four or five routers before they escape into the cloud.

All that is simply a prelude to say that the MAC address of my PC is known only to the fifth-level router, but not the fourth or beyond. If someone were to subpoena our edge routers, my MAC address would be nowhere to be found.

Plus, it may not be possible to see a MAC address and immediately positively identify it as a Dominion machine. The MAC address does contain a code which identifies the manufacturer of the network interface card (NIC) to which the address belongs. But Dominion probably does not make their own NICs. They almost certainly use NICs made by Intel or someone else. So, the MAC addresses would be indistinguishable from those of desktop PC"s or internal servers that happened to have NIC's made by the same company that made the NICs in the Dominion machines. Even if Dominion makes the motherboard of their machines (which I doubt), they almost certainly use chipsets made by others, and which would have MAC addresses of that subcontractor.

And as someone upstream alluded to, MAC addresses can be spoofed. in which case, all bets are off.

LM K wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:41 pm

noblepa wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:10 am
I think that the Cyber Ninjas and other conspiracy theorists are claiming that the Dominion machines were connected to the internet, contrary to statements released by the Maricopa County Board of Elections. If they were connected, it seems unlikely that the county would spoof their own MAC addresses to fool their own routers. But, perhaps I just don't appreciate the depth of the conspiracy to steal the election from Donald Trump.

The MAC addresses of servers or computers outside the county network would not be available to the county routers.

Cyber Ninjas agreed that the dominion machines were never connected to the internet.

So, then why do they want the routers? They may as well subpoena New York City's routers to determine what went on with the Dominion machines. If they were never connected to the internet, the routers would not have any information whatsoever, about the Dominion machines.

In my county, the machines in the Board of Elections counting room were on a separate little network that never left the room. Even the computers that collected and totaled the ballots where not connected. Someone had to, more or less, manually take the numbers to a computer that was connected to the intranet and upload them to the county's publicly accessible web servers. This done, specifically to preclude the kind of outside hacking that is being suggested.

noblepa wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:49 pm So, then why do they want the routers?

Noise generation.

noblepa wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:49 pm

So, then why do they want the routers?

Because they knew they weren't ever going to get them, thus moar proof of the conspiracy to steal the election from Zee Furher, the greatest American that has evah lived...

Frater I*I wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:19 pm Because they knew they weren't ever going to get them, thus moar proof of the conspiracy to steal the election from Zee Furher, the greatest American that has evah lived...

The frauditors is desperate to give reasons to excuse:

*Their unbelievable slow pace
*To give fraudit supporters a reason to "doubt" that the MCBOS is cooperating
*Blame the MCBOS if the fraudit results show no irregularities or fraud
*Feed the conspiracy theories ..."what are they hiding?"

Cyber Ninjas knows exactly how to get the info they want.

A judge ruled that the AZ Senate must subpoena Dominion for the passwords they want. No subpoena has been requested.

Why is Cyber Ninjas saying they need the routers when they've already said that they found no evidence that the machines were connected to the internet?

The AZ Senate hasn't asked a judge to enforce a subpoena from Feb that is vague about the physical routers. Why is that?

At this point, I almost hope they do get the routers. Could you imagine the public backlash if county services shut down for a month or two. Paid vacation for employees, massive inconvenience for everyone else, and senate republicans to thank for it.

noblepa wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:41 pm

RTH10260 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:37 am Just as a note: the MAC addresses are the only thing I really expect to see in some log, as part of the MAC to IP address assignment it may be kept to trace assumed conspiratorial IP addresses back to the assumed origin. But then again, those networklogs are offloaded to a log server. The mental ninjas never asked for network logs... IIRC ISPs are required to keep the IP assignment logs for several months (one year?), but does that regulation also apply to state networks?

snippity

And as someone upstream alluded to, MAC addresses can be spoofed. in which case, all bets are off.

Well, this all just goes to show how ingenious Soros' plot was and how good we were at anticipating just how many votes and where we need to have them -- otherwise why would we have spent the last three decades designing the internet this way. I mean, how much more proof do you need??

RTH10260 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:37 amIIRC ISPs are required to keep the IP assignment logs for several months (one year?), but does that regulation also apply to state networks?

I don't know what the regulations are, or if there any such regs. I don't think that any such address assignment logs would do them any good.

However, an organization as large as Maricopa county almost certainly has a block of static IP addresses assigned by their ISP. A public enterprise, that has a web presence is unlikely to have dynamically assigned IP addresses.

The county I worked for has something on the order of 20,000 devices connected to our private internal network. I think that we have twenty (maybe less) public addresses. All outgoing traffic uses those twenty IP addresses, via the magic of PAT (port address translation). When my PC sends a packet to the edge router, destined for a public website, such as Microsoft.com, the router remembers my private internal address (10.xx.xx.xx) and assigns one of those 20 addresses as the return address for my outgoing packet. But, it also assigns one of almost 64K random port numbers. So, my PC sends a packet to Microsoft.com on port 80 (www) and the router assigns a return address of 64.233.214.xx:12345. This means that microsoft's web server receives the packet on port 80 and responds to 24.233.214.xx:12345. It never sees my private internal address (10.xx.xx.xx). On the way out, our edge router created an entry in a table that tells it that any incoming traffic addressed to 64.233.214.xx:12345 is to be forwarded to my PC at 10.xx.xx.xx. When my conversation with Microsoft ends, the entry is deleted from the table.

There is another block of static addresses for constantly available outward-facing servers, such as our website and email, but again, this block is rather small and never changes.

All that our ISP knows is that we are sending/receiving traffic on those twenty IP addresses. They have no way of knowing that it is my PC that is talking to Microsoft. So,

In short, I am becoming more and more convinced that the routers are of absolutely no use to Cyber Ninjas. I am not a certified network engineer, so perhaps I am missing something.

BTW, even if Maricopa county does log traffic through their routers, it is almost certainly ephemeral. That is, the logs are only kept for a very short period of time, perhaps as little as an hour or two. When router logs are kept at all, it is usually so that they can do a post-mortem on a system crash. When a system crashes, it may be helpful to know what happened in the last 30 seconds. If the system is running normally, the logs serve no purpose. They are not kept as long-term business records. There may not be enough disk space in the world to keep permanent and complete logs of all incoming and outgoing traffic. So, any logs that might have existed on election day, are long, long gone.

neeneko wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:07 pm At this point, I almost hope they do get the routers. Could you imagine the public backlash if county services shut down for a month or two. Paid vacation for employees, massive inconvenience for everyone else, and senate republicans to thank for it.

That's was Hunter Biden's fault.

I'm just a one armed transmission mechanic from Argillite Kentucky, but all this router, and address and logs and needing to know the present state of the (entire?) internet on a day 8 months ago etc... sounds very much like trying to index the grains of sand on a beach during a hurricane.

In my naivety I assume the design of the relevant voting devices is approved / certified by some part of the electoral administration (federal / State, or both?). If so, I also assume any internet connectivity would be forbidden. Are individual devices checked?

Also, as Gregg and others have suggested even if the relevant logs existed it would be impossible to piece together exactly what went where when.

This truly is a farce. I know “State’s rights” are a minefield but this sorry saga shows that National / federal oversight of ballot processing needs reviewing. That a State can task a private company with “auditing” (ha!) an election with their obvious conflicts of interest and so many flaws in their processes is ridiculous. The root cause is obviously the highly partisan state of politics and the associated staggeringly mind-boggling willingness of people to believe whatever fits their desired outcome(s). (Sadly it is also obvious that there is nothing capable of making many of these people accept anything other than their desired result).

neeneko wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:07 pm At this point, I almost hope they do get the routers. Could you imagine the public backlash if county services shut down for a month or two. Paid vacation for employees, massive inconvenience for everyone else, and senate republicans to thank for it.

The public backlash would not be from the Maricopa republicans that support the fraudit. They still adore Arpaio even while they pay millions for his antics. A shut down of the government, which is something they like, would just be another chance to own the libs and RINOs. If the government shuts down, no taxes. When it hurts one of their own, they will blame the libs and RINOs for this.

RINO previously meant, Republican in Name Only, though even before Trump I noticed it was used more by the Republicans Come Lately (RCLs) and other RWNJs to push out the long-lived moderate, country club, wing which, of course, breaks Reagan's 11th commandment. Now RINO has moderated to not even bother with extreme conservative positions but only means anybody who is not a Trump sycophant.

Oh the irony that to not support Trump, who is an RCL, makes you a RINO.

northland10 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:45 am

neeneko wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:07 pm At this point, I almost hope they do get the routers. Could you imagine the public backlash if county services shut down for a month or two. Paid vacation for employees, massive inconvenience for everyone else, and senate republicans to thank for it.

RINO previously meant, Republican in Name Only, though even before Trump I noticed it was used more by the Republicans Come Lately (RCLs) and other RWNJs to push out the long-lived moderate, country club, wing which, of course, breaks Reagan's 11th commandment. Now RINO has moderated to not even bother with extreme conservative positions but only means anybody who is not a Trump sycophant.

Oh the irony that to not support Trump, who is an RCL, makes you a RINO.

But infighting is funny..

Uninformed wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:21 am In my naivety I assume the design of the relevant voting devices is approved / certified by some part of the electoral administration (federal / State, or both?). If so, I also assume any internet connectivity would be forbidden. Are individual devices checked?

Also, as Gregg and others have suggested even if the relevant logs existed it would be impossible to piece together exactly what went where when.

This truly is a farce. I know “State’s rights” are a minefield but this sorry saga shows that National / federal oversight of ballot processing needs reviewing. That a State can task a private company with “auditing” (ha!) an election with their obvious conflicts of interest and so many flaws in their processes is ridiculous. The root cause is obviously the highly partisan state of politics and the associated staggeringly mind-boggling willingness of people to believe whatever fits their desired outcome(s). (Sadly it is also obvious that there is nothing capable of making many of these people accept anything other than their desired result).

If the federal government were to control elections wouldn't that likely fall under the administrative branch? It's chilling to think what would have happened had the Trump administration actually been able to control the 2020 election. No, thanks. At least we have a few states that are controlled by Democrats, who, so far have not tried to steal an election yet.

neonzx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:55 am

northland10 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:45 am

neeneko wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:07 pm At this point, I almost hope they do get the routers. Could you imagine the public backlash if county services shut down for a month or two. Paid vacation for employees, massive inconvenience for everyone else, and senate republicans to thank for it.

RINO previously meant, Republican in Name Only, though even before Trump I noticed it was used more by the Republicans Come Lately (RCLs) and other RWNJs to push out the long-lived moderate, country club, wing which, of course, breaks Reagan's 11th commandment. Now RINO has moderated to not even bother with extreme conservative positions but only means anybody who is not a Trump sycophant.

Oh the irony that to not support Trump, who is an RCL, makes you a RINO.

But infighting is funny..

I say toss 'em in a dark room full of guns and don't open the door until the shooting stops.

RVInit wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:42 pm

Uninformed wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:21 am In my naivety I assume the design of the relevant voting devices is approved / certified by some part of the electoral administration (federal / State, or both?). If so, I also assume any internet connectivity would be forbidden. Are individual devices checked?

Also, as Gregg and others have suggested even if the relevant logs existed it would be impossible to piece together exactly what went where when.

This truly is a farce. I know “State’s rights” are a minefield but this sorry saga shows that National / federal oversight of ballot processing needs reviewing. That a State can task a private company with “auditing” (ha!) an election with their obvious conflicts of interest and so many flaws in their processes is ridiculous. The root cause is obviously the highly partisan state of politics and the associated staggeringly mind-boggling willingness of people to believe whatever fits their desired outcome(s). (Sadly it is also obvious that there is nothing capable of making many of these people accept anything other than their desired result).

If the federal government were to control elections wouldn't that likely fall under the administrative branch? It's chilling to think what would have happened had the Trump administration actually been able to control the 2020 election. No, thanks. At least we have a few states that are controlled by Democrats, who, so far have not tried to steal an election yet.

The theory, for the past 245 years anyhow, has been its not Democrats or Republicans, its the Law, which should apply to all. The problem here lately is Republican's toss out, ignore, bend or if they can, change the law to something that restricts anyone but them having any reliable access to it. The Rule of Law is what used to separate the USA and other Western Liberal Democracies from third rate dictatorships. U[until about 5 years ago it kind of worked, sometimes better than others but progress was made and it was working.

And then Trump....