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INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:14 pm
by Kendra
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/19/politics ... index.html
The legal team representing former President Donald Trump is taking issue with special counsel Jack Smith’s office providing him evidence for his federal criminal trial for election interference in the latest spat over a potential delay of the March 4 trial date.

On Monday, prosecutors turned over an exhibit list and batch of evidence to the defense team. Prosecutor Tom Windom told the court the move will “help ensure that trial proceeds promptly if and when the mandate [putting the case back in the trial court] returns,” according to one filing.

But Trump’s legal team shot back late Monday in court and in a letter to Smith’s office, saying that the activity in the case “pose a significant and prohibited burden on President Trump.”
:snippity:
“Although the prosecution may wish to rush this case to an early and unconstitutional trial in hopes of undermining President Trump’s commanding lead in the upcoming Presidential election, it must nonetheless abide by the Stay Order,” Trump’s lawyers wrote in a court filing. “As such, we will not accept or review the present production, or any additional productions.”

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:17 pm
by raison de arizona
Well that really seems like shooting oneself in the foot. But by all means, make it so that you have to scramble when the stay is lifted.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 2:00 pm
by Slim Cognito
Then when the stay is lifted, and they’re looking at a looming court date, they start crying, but, but, but, we haven’t had time to look over the materials sent to us several months ago because we were too busy having a hissy fit.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:10 pm
by bob
The defendant's response to the SCOTUS cert. petition is still due December 20 (next Wednesday).
The defendant filed with SCOTUS his opposition to the government's Rule 11 cert. petition.

Executive summary: Haste makes waste. :yawn: He dutifully notes the D.C. Cir. already has scheduled oral argument on these issues for January 9.

As others have predicted, when he inevitably appeals SCoCO's ruling, he'll likely argue for haste.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:15 pm
by RTH10260
looks like the filing was submitted.

Ben Meiselas comments for those who can endure him
► Show Spoiler

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:48 pm
by realist
RTH10260 wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:15 pm looks like the filing was submitted.

Ben Meiselas comments for those who can endure him
► Show Spoiler
Overall I like Meidas Touch, but yeah, can't endure Ben's delivery, and have told him so on many occasions, but I suppose it'll never change.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:05 pm
by Volkonski
Donald Trump Asks the Supreme Court to Sit on His Coup Case

https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-tr ... etter%20PM
Donald Trump’s lawyers made their first argument before the Supreme Court on Wednesday about the former president's pending immunity claims, asking the nation’s highest court to delay the D.C. case about Trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election—a clear attempt to hold up a much-anticipated election coup trial that could brand him a felon during the 2024 midterm elections.

Last week, the Supreme Court agreed to consider whether Trump could continue hiding behind the presidential seal by claiming himself to be essentially impervious to criminal charges because he was once the president of the United States. This issue could delay the upcoming criminal trial in Washington, D.C. scheduled to start in March.

This pretrial legal battle would have normally been sorted out in the secondary appellate level, but at the Justice Department’s behest, the Supreme Court accepted the opportunity to address this question immediately.

In their court filing Wednesday, the former president’s attorneys accused Justice Department Special Counsel Jack Smith of pursuing this historic prosecution with “reckless abandon” by trying to ram this through the courts “at breakneck speed.”

“The question stands among the most complex, intricate, and momentous issues that this Court will be called on to decide,” Trump’s lawyers wrote, deriding the special counsel of harboring “the manifest partisan interest in ensuring that President Trump will be subjected to a months-long criminal trial at the height of a presidential campaign where he is the leading candidate and the only serious opponent of the current Administration.”

The Trump legal team—made up of Todd Blanche, John F. Lauro, and D. John Sauer—are hoping to delay the case as much as possible. But in Smith, they face a DOJ special counsel who’s determined to put Trump on trial early next year.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 9:23 pm
by chancery
Volkonski wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:05 pm
This pretrial legal battle would have normally been sorted out in the secondary appellate level, but at the Justice Department’s behest, the Supreme Court accepted the opportunity to address consider whether to address this question immediately.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:04 pm
by RVInit
realist wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:48 pm
RTH10260 wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:15 pm looks like the filing was submitted.

Ben Meiselas comments for those who can endure him
► Show Spoiler
Overall I like Meidas Touch, but yeah, can't endure Ben's delivery, and have told him so on many occasions, but I suppose it'll never change.
Off Topic
To me he has the same delivery style as one of the YouTube lawyers that has the largest following. I don't know if he got it from her, but it's the same style, putting emphasis on every two or three words with long(ish) and unnatural pauses between every few words. Not sure if he got it from her, but it seems to have some kind of effect on the majority of listeners. They both have a massive following. Although I have sampled many of the YouTube lawyers, the only ones I listen to with any regularity are Legal Eagle and Bruce Rivers. Rivers is a hoot.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:26 pm
by bob
The federal government filed its reply in SCOTUS:

The Rule 11 petition is now fully briefed and awaits SCOTUS' vote.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:34 pm
by chancery
https://twitter.com/AnnaBower/status/17 ... 7707639882
Anna Bower
@AnnaBower
BREAKING: Supreme Court of the United States DENIES request by special counsel to jump ahead of the DC circuit and decide whether former President Donald Trump can claim immunity from criminal charges stemming from his alleged interference in the 2020 election.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:38 pm
by much ado
So how long is the DC Circuit likely to require to issue a ruling?

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:41 pm
by sterngard friegen
Denied, as I predicted in the 14/3 thread. This court is rotten. Clearly Alito and Thomas are working for their other employers. And the three klowns appointed by Trump are little better.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:53 pm
by chancery
Does granting a petition for certiorari before judgment require only four votes, as with an ordinary petition for certiorari, or does it require five votes?

On a quick scan of the Court's rules I didn't see any discussion of this. In fact the string "vote" doesn't appear in the rules.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:03 pm
by bob
chancery wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:53 pm Does granting a petition for certiorari before judgment require only four votes, as with an ordinary petition for certiorari, or does it require five votes?
I believe it is just four, as it still is just a petition (and not a motion or application). Of course, there's no written rule that four justices are necessary to grant cert.
Five, per internal court policy.

This denial was boilerplate, with no written dissent.

My WAG is practicality reigned (at the conference discussion): It is unlikely SCOTUS would have heard argument on this case before January 9 (the date the D.C. Circuit will hear arguments). SCOTUS could grant an expeditious review of the cert. petition following the D.C. Circuit's ruling. And Rule 11 grants are extremely rare.

But delay clearly won this battle.
Edit: Updated!

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:16 pm
by much ado
bob wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:03 pm But delay clearly won this battle.
How much of a delay will it likely be?

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:41 pm
by bob
much ado wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:16 pm
bob wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:03 pm But delay clearly won this battle.
How much of a delay will it likely be?
Hard to say, as bad-faith actors could slow walk when it is advantageous to do so.

The D.C. Circuit will hear arguments on the 9th. It, recognizing the urgency, likely will issue a ruling sometime during the following week. My WAG is the panel will affirm the denial, but continue to stay while setting up an expedited schedule for further review.

So the defendant could seek en banc review. Not necessarily to win, but just to create delay. My WAG is the D.C. Cir. will deny a PREB (it won't rehear the case), but again continue to stay while setting up an expedited schedule for further review.

So then the president slow walks the cert. petition, with the federal government quickly agreeing there should be further review,* but on an expedited basis.

SCOTUS likely will take up the case. But whether it will then act urgently is an altogether different matter. Meanwhile, the stay continues to be in effect.

Recall that Bush v. Gore went through SCOTUS in, like, five (calendar, not court) days. From the original application to a ruling on the merits. But that's because there was a hard deadline. In this case, there's a deadline, but it could be moved for many reasons. So (this) SCOTUS will not be constrained by such calls for urgency.

Bottom line, I wouldn't expect a decision from SCOTUS until at least February. I could also see SCOTUS not caring about the district court's deadline and blow off making its decision until June.

And, regardless of when SCOTUS rules, the defendant almost certainly will say once the case is returned to the district court, due to the stay (that he engineered), he'll need more time to prepare for trial.


* This is the cost of taking the Rule 11 gamble.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:56 pm
by much ado
Thanks much, Bob!

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:08 pm
by chancery
https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/statu ... 4424023479
Steve Vladeck
@steve_vladeck
FWIW, it would have taken five votes to grant here because Smith was seeking certiorari “before judgment.” That said, I *do* think the absence of any public dissent is a sign of some strategic behavior behind the scenes.
Vladeck cites no authority, but he probably knows what he's talking about.*

_______
* Charles Alan Wright Chair in Federal Courts at the University of Texas is a significant credential, and he has devoted considerable attention to the Supreme Court in his career. That said, he never clerked for the Court, and I suspect that only former clerks and career lawyers in the office of the Solicitor General truly understand the unwritten rules of Supreme Court practice.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:11 pm
by p0rtia
Thanks!

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:20 pm
by bob
chancery wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:08 pmVladeck cites no authority, but he probably knows what he's talking about.
Vladeck provided the homework elsewhere:

Answer: Because SCOTUS made an internal policy decades ago. (Or, perhaps more accurately, Rehnquist believed there was an internal policy, ergo, there now was one.)

This is not surprising: Courts (and other institutions) often have internal written rules.

And I'm also not surprised that Rule 11's "showing" was the determinative factor.

For court nerds :whistle: , the memoranda (in Vladeck's link) are interesting. In a death penalty case, five justices basically accused the other four justices of abusing the Rule of Four to delay an execution. So it would appear the solution was to adopt a Rule of Five for Pre-Judgment petitions. (One could argue this new rule was limited to only death-penalty cases.)

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:07 pm
by chancery
Ha! Was just about to post this myself.

Some mildly interesting comments in the thread, including this:

https://twitter.com/SnarkierE/status/17 ... 2508626129
SnarkierAlterEgo
@SnarkierE
Of course, Rehnquist has a reputation for dishonesty that may since have been overshadowed by Thomas but which was quite remarkable for his time. Recall, for example, his blaming Justice Jackson for Rehnquist's pro-segregation memo.
Edit: I knew that a good deal of Supreme Court procedure is based on unwritten practices, but didn't realize how much of the really basic stuff falls into that category. That strikes me as not a good thing.

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:02 am
by bob

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:14 am
by much ado

INDICTED (INDICATED) #3 USA v Donald Trump - Judge Tanya Chutkan - #J6 Election Interference, Fake Electors - Jack Smith

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:14 am
by MN-Skeptic
Since IANAL, I like to see what the knowledgeable folks online are saying about this filing. Here's Kyle Cheney's 3-tweet thread -


Kyle Cheney
@kyledcheney

JUST IN: Trump has filed his opening brief at the appeals court in support of his claim for presidential immunity from prosecution.

The arguments are familiar; The bigger question is whether the D.C. treats it as urgently as Smith wants them to.

Trump says Smiths' charges against him are all about his official duties in 2020 -- calls to state officials, tweets, stuff presidents are supposed to do.

Smith says this is nonsense; nothing permitted Trump to lie in order to disenfranchise millions and seize a second term.

Smith will reply next week, and oral arguments are set for Jan. 9. The timing of the appeals court panel's ruling is as important to the case as the content. The panel:

-Karen Henderson (George H.W. Bush)
-Michelle Childs (Biden)
-Florence Pan (Biden)