Fogbow

qbawl wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:27 pm "Assuming tfg has to drop out for court appearances and De Santis has turned off every voter he's met with his charm, who's left?"
Chris Christie?

qbawl wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:27 pm "Assuming tfg has to drop out for court appearances and De Santis has turned off every voter he's met with his charm, who's left?"
Chris Christie?

bob wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 7:05 pm IIRC, the GOP is raising the ante to participate in the next debate, and Pence (among other C-listers) was not on the path to make the cut.

AndyinPA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 28, 2023 7:07 pm H really never had any to begin with.

bill_g wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:41 am The susPence is over.

Speaking with Smith's team, Pence insisted his loyalty to President Trump at the time never faltered -- "My only higher loyalty was to God and the Constitution," sources described Pence as telling them.

Tom Joseph @TomJChicago wrote: What a bombshell ABC report. Pence's Marine son had to school him to do his patriotic duty and not skip the Jan 6 certification, as Trump wanted him to do.

And Grassley... what a traitor.

Speaking with special counsel Jack Smith's team earlier this year, former Vice President Mike Pence offered harrowing details about how, in the wake of the 2020 presidential election, then-President Donald Trump surrounded himself with "crank" attorneys, espoused "un-American" legal theories, and almost pushed the country toward a "constitutional crisis," according to sources familiar with what Pence told investigators.

The sources said Pence also told investigators he's "sure" that -- in the days before Jan. 6, 2021, when a violent mob tried to stop Congress from certifying the election -- he informed Trump he still hadn't seen evidence of significant election fraud, but Trump was unmoved, continuing to claim the election was "stolen" and acting "recklessly" on that "tragic day."

Pence is the highest-ranking current or former government official known to have spoken with the special counsel team investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election. What he allegedly told investigators, described exclusively to ABC News, sheds further light on the evidence Smith's team has amassed as it prosecutes Trump for allegedly trying to unlawfully "remain in power" and "erode public faith" in democratic institutions.

Trygve Olson @trygveolson wrote: Before you attack @Mike_Pence for any past appeasement or enabling remember the seven rules for dealing with autocrats, particularly the Stalin Rule.

Seven Rules for Dealing with Autocrats and their enablers.

I wrote these when working with those worldwide fighting for Democracy in their nations, and they are just as applicable today with what we face in America in the coming months.

- Rule #1: Play the Game You Are in, Not the One You Wish or Want to Play - This means when one side is playing the zero-sum, illiberal game, there is no win-win to be played. You will either win, and democracy survives, or you lose to the autocratic forces.

- Rule #2: Always Speak Truth to Power Because You Never Know the Tipping Point - You must confront the Big Lies of illiberal forces by speaking truth to their base of power -- the people. There is a tipping point where your Truth or the Big Lies prevail.

- Rule #3: Don't Hand the Autocrats Battering Rams with Which to Beat You - The game you are in, the battle you are fighting, isn't about policy or ideology. They will use what you say to divide you from your allies, who you need to win the battle for democracy.

- Rule #4: Understand Authoritarians Must Live in a Truth-Free Present - The past presents truths about the big lies and fear the illiberal forces use. The future for autocratic forces only matters for maintaining power at the moment. They only care about keeping/gaining power.

- Rule #5: Practice Zero-Sum Judo - Use their tactics against them -- Big Truths, Marginalization, make them dependent, mock the disinformation, divide and conquer their power structure. Use their desire for the legitimacy of democracy against them.

- Rule #6: The Stalin Rule: Stand Together with Anyone Who Will Join You to Disturb, Disrupt, and Diminish the Illiberal Structures. Even if you share nothing in common beyond a love of democracy and how much you loathe their politics in normal times, you fight side-by-side with them.

- Rule #7: Wake Up Every Day Thinking Where Can the Vertical Power Structure Be Exposed, Confronted, and Destabilized - Each of us and all of us on Team Democracy must wake up every day and ask what can I do to be on the side of restoring faith and confront the fear they use.

Ultimately, I am an optimist. When the fear of the illiberal autocrat erodes because people show they are not afraid, faith takes hold, and others want and will join the fight. It is one we must win in America. It is one we will win because more Americans stand for Democracy that has made us great than Autocrat who is constantly tearing us apart and down.

Acyn @Acyn wrote: Pence: I will not be endorsing Donald Trump