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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Loren wrote:

Remember, the claim all along has been that Obama stole Virginia's birth registration number. If they get their hands on the long-form, and it's not Obama's number, then you think that would disprove their hypothesis, right? NO! They simply claim that Hawaii has inexplicably forged a fake birth certificate with a fake number for a girl who lived to be a day old.

In other words:

- Finding #1: Virginia's long-form has the same number as Obama's.
- Probability: Very low.
- Interpretation: Obama's certificate is forged from Virginia's.
- Outcome if Finding #1 is true: BIRTHERS WIN!

- Finding #2: Virginia's long-form does NOT have the same number as Obama's.
- Probability: Very high.
- Interpretation: Obama's certificate is forged, but not from Virginia's original BC. Also Therefore, Virginia's current one is forged.
- Outcome if Finding #2 is true: BIRTHERS WIN!


I think this is where they're going, Loren. They're not gonna' get there, but this is their latest moment of OMG. Any. Day. Now.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:51 pm 
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PatGund wrote:
Not even that much. Virginia Sunahara was born at Wahiawa General. Obama was born at Kapi'olani Medical Center


Sweet zombie Jesus.

So Dean's masterstroke is built around a girl who was born the same day as Obama, but in a different hospital, and in a different city?

This is getting to be insulting to other conspiracy theorists.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Mikedunford wrote:

I'm not sure that a microfilm version does exist, or if it ever existed.

I think that people are convinced that the records were microfilmed because one or more of the old Hawaii long forms that have turned up as white text on black background. Talking to friends, that seems to have been the standard for the copies given to the parents around that time. White text on black background is something you get when printing off microfilm. Thing is, it's also something you used to get when documents were reproduced with a photostat machine - which was, I believe, still pretty much the state of the art in 1961.


Are you referring to the Nordyke twins BC?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:55 pm 
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Piffle wrote:
However, a relative wanting a copy of a LFBC for the purposes of genealogical research, or some archane detail about a deceased sibling, may have additional disclosure rights to data in the original record and not on the COLB. But that wouldn't get them a "key to the vault". That ain't gonna happen.


I agree. From a genealogical point of view, I rather support relatives being able to see familial documentation.

I kinda hope he *does* get his sister's long-form. I think it's a waste to litigate it, and I know the Birthers aren't going to be happy with the result, but I have little reason to keep his sister's document from him.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:55 pm 
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BFB wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:

I'm not sure that a microfilm version does exist, or if it ever existed.

I think that people are convinced that the records were microfilmed because one or more of the old Hawaii long forms that have turned up as white text on black background. Talking to friends, that seems to have been the standard for the copies given to the parents around that time. White text on black background is something you get when printing off microfilm. Thing is, it's also something you used to get when documents were reproduced with a photostat machine - which was, I believe, still pretty much the state of the art in 1961.


Are you referring to the Nordyke twins BC?


Yes. And while talking about this with friends here I've learned that their own original birth certificates (from about that time, +/- a few years either way) are also white print on black paper documents.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:58 pm 
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Mikedunford wrote:
BFB wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:

I'm not sure that a microfilm version does exist, or if it ever existed.

I think that people are convinced that the records were microfilmed because one or more of the old Hawaii long forms that have turned up as white text on black background. Talking to friends, that seems to have been the standard for the copies given to the parents around that time. White text on black background is something you get when printing off microfilm. Thing is, it's also something you used to get when documents were reproduced with a photostat machine - which was, I believe, still pretty much the state of the art in 1961.


Are you referring to the Nordyke twins BC?


Yes. And while talking about this with friends here I've learned that their own original birth certificates (from about that time, +/- a few years either way) are also white print on black paper documents.


Well, you are correct, sir, because there's a 2009 WND article written by that blowhard Corsi which refers to the copies of the Nordyke twins' BC, obtained by their mom, as photostats. So that's that, I'd say.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Mikedunford wrote:
But I do think the key to what Haskins wants falls into where they are asking for the remedy to include having Sunahara "and/or his representative" be present at the copying of the records. They don't give a shit about the Sunahara BC. They want to get into the vault.

Agreed. If someone, for whatever reason, wanted access to all of the department's records, anyone but a birther would be content with a certified copy, and not demand to witness the department locate and copy the records.

HRS 92F-11 (UIPA), which is cited in the prayer for relief, provides for inspection and copying of the records; it does not require the copying to be witnessed.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:01 pm 
BFB wrote:
which refers to the copies of the Nordyke twins' BC, obtained by their mom, as photostats. So that's that, I'd say.

The black background ones are negative photostats.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Loren wrote:
Piffle wrote:
However, a relative wanting a copy of a LFBC for the purposes of genealogical research, or some archane detail about a deceased sibling, may have additional disclosure rights to data in the original record and not on the COLB. But that wouldn't get them a "key to the vault". That ain't gonna happen.


I agree. From a genealogical point of view, I rather support relatives being able to see familial documentation.

I kinda hope he *does* get his sister's long-form. I think it's a waste to litigate it, and I know the Birthers aren't going to be happy with the result, but I have little reason to keep his sister's document from him.


I just looked at the policy memo that's available on the Hawaii DoH website, and which details the change in policy for issuing copies of records.
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/ ... 5_2001.PDF

I think the key phrase in that memo is probably:
"This change in Department of Health policy is made pursuant to statutory restrictions on the disclosure of certain items of information contained in vital records..."
Given that the policy was changed in mid-May, 2001, I'm guessing that the "statutory restrictions" in question are probably related to HIPAA. Didn't the privacy rules go into effect right around then?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Ironic URL: xxx-http://cdrkerchner.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/was-baby-virginia-sunaharas-identity-stolen-by-dean-haskins-birtherreport-com/

Haskins stole Virginia's identity?

:o

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Loren wrote:
Piffle wrote:
However, a relative wanting a copy of a LFBC for the purposes of genealogical research, or some archane detail about a deceased sibling, may have additional disclosure rights to data in the original record and not on the COLB. But that wouldn't get them a "key to the vault". That ain't gonna happen.


I agree. From a genealogical point of view, I rather support relatives being able to see familial documentation.

I kinda hope he *does* get his sister's long-form. I think it's a waste to litigate it, and I know the Birthers aren't going to be happy with the result, but I have little reason to keep his sister's document from him.

I'm of two minds about this. While I agree that it's nice to be able to provide relatives with the original information, besides HIPPA, there's also a financial reason that states have gone to COLBs and/or paperless records. Given current and future budget problems facing states, I'm not sure that I favor a complete open door policy for original documentation (absent a more compelling reason than mere curiosity to see every detail).

Maybe I'm straining at gnats and there would never be that much demand, but I see little purpose in a policy that specifies one document but allows for more or less everyday exceptions.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:10 pm 
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ORYR comment:
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From what I remember, Obama's BC was processed at a center on the outer edge of the island in an area used by Native Hawaiians and foreigners to apply for citizenship. His BC was NOT processed at a center in the city used by the 2 main hospitals at the time, Queens and Kapi'olani.

Whhaaa??

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:11 pm 
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bob wrote:
ORYR comment:
Quote:
From what I remember, Obama's BC was processed at a center on the outer edge of the island in an area used by Native Hawaiians and foreigners to apply for citizenship. His BC was NOT processed at a center in the city used by the 2 main hospitals at the time, Queens and Kapi'olani.

Whhaaa??



??? There is only one Department of Health in all of Honolulu. Why would Honolulu Hospitals send their records to somewhere "outside" Honolulu?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:13 pm 
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FWIW, what's the origin of the Birther mythology surrounding Virginia?

A couple of significant dates:

May 13, 2011 - P&E posts summary from "Researcher," likely Ladysforest
http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/05/13/ ... 61-010641/

May 17, 2011 - Corsi writes WND article, citing P&E
http://www.wnd.com/2011/05/300201/

More from Ladysforest
http://myveryownpointofview.wordpress.c ... h-results/

Quote:
I can reply to most of your questions here.

I did not reveal who “spilled”. We did find out, and he did apologize. I suspect that Polland person would have “released” something soon if this hadn’t happened. But our investigator is the only one who went to HI and the only one who investigated in person. She had the best and most complete, REAL, info.

To my knowledge, our investigator has not tried to contact the family in quite a long time. After WND (bad timing) got involved, we knew the family would not likely respond to anyone again.

We have no idea of Virginia’s BC number. Without the family requesting it, and authorizing a release, it appears that it can not be uncovered.

One avenue remains……..

ladysforest said this on November 7, 2011


Quote:
I am nearly certain that the DOH would not let Virginia’s brother apply for the COLB, but would require Virginia’s mother to apply in person.

That name is VERY well known to them, so they will block every attempt
, except that they could not block the mothers if she went in person. The thing is that the mother is very elderly, in poor health, and seemed very unlikely to agree to such a trip to the HI DOH.

To send another person to HI, after all the attention from WND, etc., would almost certainly be a waste of money. And perhaps dangerous at this point. We counted on trying to be very quiet about going, and what would be done while she was there. In fact, the VS topic really wasn’t even part of the plan in the beginning. Difficult to say what the action should be now.

ladysforest said this on November 8, 2011


Quote:
WOW! Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I’ve been ill the past few days, so haven’t done much other than check for waiting comments.

If in fact Duncan had gone to the DOH, I am surprised that they gave him even that short version. They had to expect something would eventually move with Virginia’s BC, but without the mother going in person, they will never release the LFBC. The death certificate had to be issued within 72 hours of death, so her BC form and other official info (sorry, can’t think at the moment) would likely all arrive on the same day – and may have been processed together. That is what we have always thought to have happened. That’s why the date accepted may be more important than most think.

ladysforest said this on November 15, 2011


'Oh, my first theory was completely wrong? Here, let me move those goalposts...'

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:21 pm 
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June bug wrote:
Given current and future budget problems facing states, I'm not sure that I favor a complete open door policy for original documentation (absent a more compelling reason than mere curiosity to see every detail).


I'm not saying they shouldn't CHARGE for it. Make it $5 or $10 per request. Ten bucks certainly covers the expense of photocopying a piece of paper, and avoids people who are merely curious.

Remember, Obama's birth certificate gave his parents' ages, their birthplaces, his mom's address, and their jobs. None of that is on a COLB. And that's information that a genealogist would legitimately like to have.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Mikedunford wrote:
I just looked at the policy memo that's available on the Hawaii DoH website, and which details the change in policy for issuing copies of records.
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/ ... 5_2001.PDF

I think the key phrase in that memo is probably:
"This change in Department of Health policy is made pursuant to statutory restrictions on the disclosure of certain items of information contained in vital records..."
Given that the policy was changed in mid-May, 2001, I'm guessing that the "statutory restrictions" in question are probably related to HIPAA. Didn't the privacy rules go into effect right around then?


Yes and yes. I think you may be spot-on, Mike. Going forward from about that time, HIPAA definitely added health care privacy requirements. As a general proposition, privacy rights concerning patient records extend past death.

Specifically within the HIPAA context, rights of access to the medical records of a decedent are subject to the contours of health care privacy (e.g., authorizing access by health care personal representatives) and probate law (e.g., generally authorizing access by the personal representative of the decedent's estate).

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Kerchner the Traitor wrote:
Imo, something very suspicious is going on in the Hawaii Health Department. In their efforts to help cover-up for Obama, they may be revealing the tip of a much more extensive history of fraud and criminal activities, past and/or present.

That "Imo" means "in my opinion," doesn't it, Charles?

Well sir, your opinion isn't worth a pile of flea dirt half the size of the period at the end of this sentence. Take your lunatic birther opinion and stick it where the sun don't shine, pal. [-X

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Loren wrote:
June bug wrote:
Given current and future budget problems facing states, I'm not sure that I favor a complete open door policy for original documentation (absent a more compelling reason than mere curiosity to see every detail).


I'm not saying they shouldn't CHARGE for it. Make it $5 or $10 per request. Ten bucks certainly covers the expense of photocopying a piece of paper, and avoids people who are merely curious.

Remember, Obama's birth certificate gave his parents' ages, their birthplaces, his mom's address, and their jobs. None of that is on a COLB. And that's information that a genealogist would legitimately like to have.



I don;t think it really has to do with cost of doing so, I think it more has to do with TIME and STAFF to process these types of requests. Its now been 10 years that Hawaii has gone computerized, so all records are now in a DB. Its much easier to press a few keys and have a printer do the work now.

the Paper copies as we have seen and heard are stored in BOUND books and in a vault on the property. That means it could take anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour for a staffer to :
1) take the request
2) go to the vault (of which she may not even have access to and have to rely on the director to open)
3) Director then has to go through the bound book to locate said record.
4) take the book to a photocopy machine and then make a photocopy

And seeing as these are paper original records (some may be as old as a hundred years), they may need to be handled with great care and can cost even more time.


As a State, would you want to pay someone to handle these type of requests that would take so long to do (and only processing maybe 10 requests a day), or just pay someone to press a button on a computer, print, sign, stamp. emboss and send the customer on their way in less than 10 minutes (and process more than a 100 records a day)?


we already know that the DOH has reduced their staff and have furlough days to budget concerns. And that birthers have been nothing but money wasters for the already understaffed department.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Loren wrote:
June bug wrote:
Given current and future budget problems facing states, I'm not sure that I favor a complete open door policy for original documentation (absent a more compelling reason than mere curiosity to see every detail).


I'm not saying they shouldn't CHARGE for it. Make it $5 or $10 per request. Ten bucks certainly covers the expense of photocopying a piece of paper, and avoids people who are merely curious.

<snip>


Cost factors, though not insignificant, are not uniquely applicable to vital statistics, which is the topic here. If we're going to argue the economics, we need to revisit the wisdom of sunshine laws in general (e.g., FOIA and state equivalents). Personally, I'm for sunshine.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Kerchner the Traitor wrote:
Imo, something very suspicious is going on in the Hawaii Health Department. In their efforts to help cover-up for Obama, they may be revealing the tip of a much more extensive history of fraud and criminal activities, past and/or present.


I think it is suspicious that a balloon falls slower than a steam iron. I'm a moron.

Can we be friends now, Charlie?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:33 pm 
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I would say for a "genealogical" interest that said records can be changed to be "public" after so many years. Say after 75 years, you can have access to the birth records of an individual as part of the a public open records policy.

But that would take a change in the laws.

I for one would love to see the birth records of my great grandparents, who were the first Japanese/Okinawan children of the first immigrants to Hawaii. My granparents were Nisei, and my parent was Sansei. And of course the records of their brothers and sisters (If I counted it right, my Japanese immigrant side of my family I'm looking at over 10 great grand aunts and uncles and 20 grand uncles and aunts, and not including all of their children)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:40 pm 
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we already know that the DOH has reduced their staff and have furlough days to budget concerns. And that birthers have been nothing but money wasters for the already understaffed department.

Yes; also, it is the Department of HEALTH, not the Department of Satisfying Idle Curiosities. While not discounting the importance of open records or vital statistics research, the department really does have other things to do.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Loren wrote:
PatGund wrote:
Not even that much. Virginia Sunahara was born at Wahiawa General. Obama was born at Kapi'olani Medical Center


Sweet zombie Jesus.

So Dean's masterstroke is built around a girl who was born the same day as Obama, but in a different hospital, and in a different city?

This is getting to be insulting to other conspiracy theorists.


In context

Quote:
Duncan knew that his sister was born in the same hospital that he had been a few years earlier, and that she was transferred to another hospital, but he didn't know which one (and his elderly mother could not remember). He had visited the birth hospital, Wahiawa General, and both Queen's and Kapi'olani Medical Centers, but was not able to obtain any information from them. We were able to help him procure all of the medical records from the day Virginia spent in Wahiawa General, and found that she was transferred to Kapi'olani, but Kapi'olani insists they have no records on file.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Mikedunford wrote:

Talking to friends, that seems to have been the standard for the copies given to the parents around that time. White text on black background is something you get when printing off microfilm. Thing is, it's also something you used to get when documents were reproduced with a photostat machine - which was, I believe, still pretty much the state of the art in 1961.


My Hawai'ian BC, pre-statehood but less than a decade before The President's birth, is a small black square with white type. The one I requested 15 years ago was 8.5x11 but also black background with white type.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:55 pm 
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bob wrote:
Quote:
we already know that the DOH has reduced their staff and have furlough days to budget concerns. And that birthers have been nothing but money wasters for the already understaffed department.

Yes; also, it is the Department of HEALTH, not the Department of Satisfying Idle Curiosities. While not discounting the importance of open records or vital statistics research, the department really does have other things to do.


Health is the policy reason for the existence of the agency, but in return for its services, the agency receives information that is otherwise private and belongs to the individuals who provide it and, to a lesser extent, their families.

I don't see how any expense or time problems that would be caused by transparency aren't easily remedied by charging individuals for the actual cost of acquiring and preserving the original while copying it, with exceptions for records requests that are in the public interest or for people who can't afford it if the records are theirs and the purpose is not vexatious.

FOIA acts along similar lines, with the burden on one seeking free copies to show that it is in the public interest.

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