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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Highlands wrote:
A Legal Lohengrin wrote:
These boards exist to protect doctors at all costs, and to maintain our illusion that there really are professional standards to which doctors are held.


Yep.


Has it always been thus or has the stench of semi-competence permeated everything? When the top clearly doesn't care about reforming processes that aren't fair for everybody but only the appearance of fairness for everybody, the bottom begins to think that way, too.

Is it really only in my imagination that things like the Bar Associations and doctor boards once worked?

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:44 pm 
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As soon as politicians had the first idea to set up a watchdog agency to protect the people -- in response to massive wailing from the people -- the other politicians and their lobbyists figured out that you stack the new watchdog group with your people and you're doing even bettah than before. You gots yourself a fig leaf that don't cover much of anything but to which black hole all massive wailing must be addressed to.

That and the omnipresent committee (and "super" committees) to "resolve" all issues.

There is NO substitute, EVAH for People Power. [-(

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:01 pm 
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ZorbasLeGreque wrote:
Plutodog wrote:
As soon as politicians had the first idea to set up a watchdog agency to protect the people -- in response to massive wailing from the people -- the other politicians and their lobbyists figured out that you stack the new watchdog group with your people and you're doing even bettah than before. You gots yourself a fig leaf that don't cover much of anything but to which black hole all massive wailing must be addressed to.

That and the omnipresent committee (and "super" committees) to "resolve" all issues.

There is NO substitute, EVAH for People Power. [-(


I disagree. People are too easily manipulated. Ask the Californians how good "Direct Democracy" works.


As this California voter said before, Direct Democracy is a good tool to have when the elected officials go rogue. Just because it is sometimes misused does not mean it is not a good tool.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:14 pm 
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kate520 wrote:
Highlands wrote:
A Legal Lohengrin wrote:
These boards exist to protect doctors at all costs, and to maintain our illusion that there really are professional standards to which doctors are held.


Yep.


Has it always been thus or has the stench of semi-competence permeated everything? When the top clearly doesn't care about reforming processes that aren't fair for everybody but only the appearance of fairness for everybody, the bottom begins to think that way, too.

Is it really only in my imagination that things like the Bar Associations and doctor boards once worked?


We had a medmal case once, involved a urologist. I cannot remember the details but it ended up with the client having to rely on depends for the rest of her life. We filed the lawsuit (after going through all the bullshit of Rule 9(j) which means you have to find an "expert" who will testify that the care received was below the normal standard of care before you can even file the lawsuit) we got to mediation. We actually settled at mediation cause the chances of prevailing at trial were pretty slim (we have a very conservative jury pool around here). After it was all done I was cleaning out the conference room and I found a memorandum that opposing counsel had left behind during the mediation. It was very detailed, setting out all of the ways that the doctor had screwed up with the surgery and explaining to the insurance company the basics of the case. The bottom line was they valued the case at FOUR TIMES what we settled it for. I have never felt so sick. These people are simply evil, they are willing to low ball an injured patient (or client) for the sake of winning. It is sickening.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Litlebritdifrnt2 wrote:
kate520 wrote:
Highlands wrote:
A Legal Lohengrin wrote:
These boards exist to protect doctors at all costs, and to maintain our illusion that there really are professional standards to which doctors are held.


Yep.


Has it always been thus or has the stench of semi-competence permeated everything? When the top clearly doesn't care about reforming processes that aren't fair for everybody but only the appearance of fairness for everybody, the bottom begins to think that way, too.

Is it really only in my imagination that things like the Bar Associations and doctor boards once worked?


We had a medmal case once, involved a urologist. I cannot remember the details but it ended up with the client having to rely on depends for the rest of her life. We filed the lawsuit (after going through all the bullshit of Rule 9(j) which means you have to find an "expert" who will testify that the care received was below the normal standard of care before you can even file the lawsuit) we got to mediation.


In Jersey, we have that, and it is called an affidavit of merit. Supplying one is an element of the case, so failure to submit timely means your case is dismissed with prejudice forever, and your only recourse a malpractice lawsuit against your attorney.

It is a very stupid and useless statute. It was meant to reduce frivolous litigation. After all, if you can't get anyone even to say you have a case, you probably don't have a case. In actual practice, though, it has just spawned more litigation about the statute itself, because its harsh operation is often inequitable, with lawyers placing stupid little gotcha games like lulling someone into a sense of false security about the absence of the statute, or its defects, then jumping on it the moment the time expires.

It is the sort of stupid law you get in the name of "tort reform."

Quote:
We actually settled at mediation cause the chances of prevailing at trial were pretty slim (we have a very conservative jury pool around here). After it was all done I was cleaning out the conference room and I found a memorandum that opposing counsel had left behind during the mediation. It was very detailed, setting out all of the ways that the doctor had screwed up with the surgery and explaining to the insurance company the basics of the case. The bottom line was they valued the case at FOUR TIMES what we settled it for. I have never felt so sick. These people are simply evil, they are willing to low ball an injured patient (or client) for the sake of winning. It is sickening.


To play Devil's advocate, and insurance lawyers are somewhere on the level of the Devil's taint, it's their job to get the best result for their clients as possible, and they'd be breaching legal ethics not to do it. It may be amoral, but it's not necessarily immoral or unethical. My gripe with insurance lawyers is when they file every possible motion regardless of merit or even when patently lacking merit, and get away with it. That's worse than Orly, because they know what they're doing.

I'm not talking about all insurance lawyers.

If for whatever reason I had to pay off my gargantuan student loans by doing insurance lawyer work, I have to admit I would do the hell out of it and would be proud of that result, even as my soul died a little.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:20 pm 
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ZorbasLeGreque wrote:
Plutodog wrote:
As soon as politicians had the first idea to set up a watchdog agency to protect the people -- in response to massive wailing from the people -- the other politicians and their lobbyists figured out that you stack the new watchdog group with your people and you're doing even bettah than before. You gots yourself a fig leaf that don't cover much of anything but to which black hole all massive wailing must be addressed to.

That and the omnipresent committee (and "super" committees) to "resolve" all issues.

There is NO substitute, EVAH for People Power. [-(


I disagree. People are too easily manipulated. Ask the Californians how good "Direct Democracy" works.

Who said direct democracy? I din't. I'm talking about people in force insisting that their representatives do what they want, and those folks doing it within the constitution and the laws. And while people can run amok, that's no excuse for disempowering them, IMO.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:50 am 
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Edit:
Offtopic :
The baggerz are doing what is legal in our country. That is not the problem. The problem is that they are not adequately countered. And we can and do counter with better facts, better philosophy, better humanity in enough instances to retain hope. At least for me. And when that fades, sticking to the path with heart and doing what can be done no matter the odds keeps me ticking, out of depression.

Throwing what happened or happens in Germany is beside any point I'm trying to make.

We've made much progress in this country through the active participation of the public influencing legislators who must be elected and re-elected. That's been damaged greatly where money is considered free speech and corporations are considered people. But the people (the majority of a non-homogenous whole) have great power if/when they stand up and demand certain actions...eventually, the politicians listen and the BS that a nasty minority holds gets scuttled or muted or just goes away in disgust to fight another day. It's a never-ending process, a battle for each generation. But that's life.

That's the way it's worked in this country, through much of our history. I don't know what land you're talking about.

Edited to add the off-topic and to add that a good part of people power in the street is to educate and influence other citizens in order to increase the pressure on our elected leadership. Hopefully, we can outdo the nutjobs in that regard.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Jon Streeter will become the new president of The State Bar of California in September.
Quote:
“I will work hard to reestablish a sense of unity and [highlight]restore the effectiveness and integrity of the discipline system[/highlight],” Streeter said after the vote was announced. He called the discipline system dysfunctional and said, “It is about the backlog, the backlog, the backlog. Finding the right person instead of micromanaging our relationship with that person” is key.

http://www.calbarjournal.com/August2011 ... s/TH3.aspx
Orly Taitz is the poster child for the CA Bar's dysfunctional discipline system.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:06 pm 
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Joseph Robidoux III wrote:
Jon Streeter will become the new president of The State Bar of California in September.
Quote:
“I will work hard to reestablish a sense of unity and [highlight]restore the effectiveness and integrity of the discipline system[/highlight],” Streeter said after the vote was announced. He called the discipline system dysfunctional and said, “It is about the backlog, the backlog, the backlog. Finding the right person instead of micromanaging our relationship with that person” is key.

http://www.calbarjournal.com/August2011 ... s/TH3.aspx
Orly Taitz is the poster child for the CA Bar's dysfunctional discipline system.


I wish I knew the man. I'd be on the horn with him right now.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:06 pm 
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A Legal Lohengrin wrote:
Boris Nudelmann wrote:
Looks like the California Medical Board is as bad as the California State Bar:

Quote:
California medical board fails to discipline 710 troubled doctors

"If the hospital or HMO has taken action, why hasn't the board?" asked Dr. Sidney Wolfe, director of Public Citizen's health research group. "That's something that as a physician or a patient I would be worried about. Hospitals rarely discipline doctors. When they do, it's usually for very serious infractions."


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 2694.story


Medical Boards generally are. Look at Dr. Harold Shipman. It took him murdering 218 people just that we know for sure he murdered. He may have murdered hundreds more. Nobody even looked into him, even after hundreds of people dying in exactly the same way. A simple tox screen would have turned up the heroin he used to murder his patients. These boards exist to protect doctors at all costs, and to maintain our illusion that there really are professional standards to which doctors are held.

Doctors often complain about the costs of malpractice insurance, but still, it is a tiny fraction of the real quacks out there who commit the vast majority of malpractice, while not even getting a slap on the wrist. I will note that by comparison, legal malpractice insurance is inexpensive. However, to some extent, the same situation prevails in at least some if not most bars.


Hold on a second. I have to take some umbrage with this. First, Harold Shipman was a British Doctor. Different country, different regulatory practices. There are certainly professional standards to which Doctors are held. Physicians lose their licenses all the time. Usually it's for something that shocks the conscious. Since the term "Standard of Practice" is somewhat vague, there is a lot of latitude for physicians to work. There are no cookie cutter solutions to medicine and by virtue of having a license, you have a lot of leeway. Keep in mind that physicians have completed at least seven years of post-graduate work before they can operate independently. For example, I would never give methadone to anyone. You have to have a special license to use it to manage addiction to heroin. However, any doctor can use it to manage pain control. Some physicians use it to control pain because they are comfortable with it. Some physicians prescribe Vicodin for menstrual cramps. Not exactly the route I would take, but you need to allow for some practice leeway. To make the profession draconian with uber-strict regulations would end up harming patients. All of this ignores medical urgency and emergency situations. I know of a story where an EM physician did a borehole procedure on a patient (drilling a hole in the skull of a patient with a head bleed to relieve the pressure and prevent the patient from dying). That is a neurosurgical case. In an ideal situation, that procedure would have been done in the OR by someone who had done a 9 year residency. However, as it would have taken several hours to get to the nearest neurosurgeon (they are, needless to say, hard to come by), the patient would have been dead before he would have gotten the "standard of care". In this instance was there a breach? Hell no. The patient lived and did well. Would there have been a breach if the patient would have died? Hell no. Would a court or regulatory board felt that way? It depends. The Doctor still did the right thing.

My wife did med mal for a while, so I certainly respect that there are bad actors out there (i.e. practitioners routinely doing non-emergent procedures they are unqualified for with poor outcomes). However, state medical boards don't exist to protect doctors. I just don't think people have a good understanding of why it is tough to second guess the decisions made by physicians. I also don't exactly buy the notion that, simply because a physician has had a lot of mal-practice cases against them, they should have their license yanked. If that were the case, then we are allowing tort lawyers to influence the scope of practice. Do you know what the number one factor is behind Doctors not getting sued is? It has nothing to do with competence. It's amount of time spent at the bedside (the reference for this can be found in Malcolm McDowell's "Blink"). Some of the biggest dick head doctors are brilliant and will give you the best care possible. Some of the most incompetent doctors are gregarious and the patients love them. It doesn't translate to professional competence.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Orly Taitz is not going to get disbarred. Instead she's going to be awarded Lawyer of the Year by the California State Bar. She is, after all, a political decedent* who has risked it all for the Konstitooshun.

*Her word.
Not a death threat.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:39 pm 
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TexasFilly wrote:
Joseph Robidoux III wrote:
Jon Streeter will become the new president of The State Bar of California in September.
Quote:
“I will work hard to reestablish a sense of unity and restore the effectiveness and integrity of the discipline system,” Streeter said after the vote was announced. He called the discipline system dysfunctional and said, “It is about the backlog, the backlog, the backlog. Finding the right person instead of micromanaging our relationship with that person” is key.

http://www.calbarjournal.com/August2011 ... s/TH3.aspx
Orly Taitz is the poster child for the CA Bar's dysfunctional discipline system.


I wish I knew the man. I'd be on the horn with him right now.



Whining about not having bodies is no excuse - He could commission a Citizens' Posse just like Sheriff Jow

They could clear up the backlog toot-sweet.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:50 pm 
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[Note: I wrote the quoted post months ago, so will only respond briefly to what I assume is inadvertent thread necromancy. I will also note, to link this to the actual thread topic, that the problem with self-regulation is also demonstrated by such entities in other contexts, such as the abjectly useless California Bar Association, which has not yet disbarred Orly Taitz.]

Old Grunt wrote:
A Legal Lohengrin wrote:
Medical Boards generally are. Look at Dr. Harold Shipman. It took him murdering 218 people just that we know for sure he murdered. He may have murdered hundreds more. Nobody even looked into him, even after hundreds of people dying in exactly the same way. A simple tox screen would have turned up the heroin he used to murder his patients. These boards exist to protect doctors at all costs, and to maintain our illusion that there really are professional standards to which doctors are held.

Doctors often complain about the costs of malpractice insurance, but still, it is a tiny fraction of the real quacks out there who commit the vast majority of malpractice, while not even getting a slap on the wrist. I will note that by comparison, legal malpractice insurance is inexpensive. However, to some extent, the same situation prevails in at least some if not most bars.


Hold on a second. I have to take some umbrage with this. First, Harold Shipman was a British Doctor. Different country, different regulatory practices.


Note, I said "generally." I'd really want some specifics as to how our practices differ, such that a Harold Shipman or anyone like that is impossible here. I don't see anything substantively different, except reforms that occurred here as well as in the UK in response to various death doctors.

While I don't think Dr. Harold Shipman changes everything, if it makes you better, I'll offer Dr. Michael Swango instead, an American serial killer doctor who murdered a relatively modest 60 known people.

Wikipedia on Swango wrote:
Despite a very poor evaluation in his dean's letter from SIU, Swango got a surgical internship at Ohio State University Medical Center in 1983, to be followed by a residency in neurosurgery. While he worked at the Rhodes Hall wing, nurses began noticing that apparently healthy patients began dying mysteriously with alarming frequency. Each time, Swango had been the floor intern. One nurse caught him injecting some "medicine" into a patient who later became strangely ill. The nurses reported their concerns to administrators, but were met with accusations of paranoia. Swango was cleared by a cursory investigation in 1984. His time as a resident included a month rotation at Columbus Children's Hospital. There were suspicions at this point and he was required to have someone else with him at all times while at Children's. Nurses were instructed not to call him even if he was listed as the doctor on call. He was not hired as a resident physician after his internship ended in June.


Needless to say, it goes on and on. At least some of this activity was outside the country.

Old Grunt wrote:
To make the profession draconian with uber-strict regulations would end up harming patients.


I'm not sure what is "draconian" about actually doing an investigation when multiple nurses report a mentally disturbed doctor who is beginning his career as a serial killer, and instead brushing it under the carpet, when an even minimally competent investigation would have had him drummed out of the profession. Both Shipman and Swango exhibited bizarre behavior, but Swango was considered disturbed for most of his career by his colleagues.

I pick these examples because they are particularly egregious, not because they are common. My point is that Shipman and Swango are both examples of the level of absolutely egregious behavior, that stuck out like a sore thumb, that slips right past medical boards. While I could come up with example after example of actual serial killer doctors who went under the radar, the more common example is the flat-out incompetent doctor allowed to make mistake after mistake for years or decades. The nurses at any hospital seem always to have a "that guy" in mind if you discuss the staff at their hospital. I've rarely seen anything happen to those "that guys" other than losing privileges.

Old Grunt wrote:
However, state medical boards don't exist to protect doctors.


That may not be their express purpose, but just like any self-regulating profession, whether it's the practice of law or medicine or anything else requiring a license, the regulators are generally going to be people within that profession. They tend to protect their own, just as police officers or clergy or any other group with some kind of specialty that stick together.

This isn't a criticism of doctors as such, but of regulatory bodies.

Old Grunt wrote:
I just don't think people have a good understanding of why it is tough to second guess the decisions made by physicians.

That's why you need a professional witness, such as a doctor or a lawyer, preferably in the same field of specialty, to give competent evidence on whether a professional's behavior fell below an objective professional standard, in order to prove malpractice.

Old Grunt wrote:
I also don't exactly buy the notion that, simply because a physician has had a lot of mal-practice cases against them, they should have their license yanked. If that were the case, then we are allowing tort lawyers to influence the scope of practice. Do you know what the number one factor is behind Doctors not getting sued is? It has nothing to do with competence. It's amount of time spent at the bedside (the reference for this can be found in Malcolm McDowell's "Blink"). Some of the biggest dick head doctors are brilliant and will give you the best care possible. Some of the most incompetent doctors are gregarious and the patients love them. It doesn't translate to professional competence.


I'm not talking about allowing (especially unfounded) malpractice claims to decide, by themselves, whether licenses should be yanked. I am well aware that there are kinds of doctors and specialties where malpractice claims are more likely, and good reasons why some doctors, despite being exemplary physicians, would have an unusual number of deaths among their patients, such as specializing in particularly difficult cases or particularly high-risk procedures.

I am also not saying that self-regulation is, itself, a bad thing. The problem is that the very people most competent to judge whether or not a physician is, judging from an objective standard, too incompetent to hold a license are also, by the very nature of them also being in that profession, going to be inclined to be biased in favor of members of that profession. I'm certainly not saying doctors, as a whole, are less competent than any other profession and, in fact, doctors are probably on the whole the most competent professionals.

I am saying, though, that I have seen too many regulatory bodies like medical boards that are basically toothless and do nothing even in the case of the most egregious kinds of incompetence, up to and including outright serial killing. YMMV and probably does.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:14 pm 
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Cross posted from Orly's latest poopies..... after deciding this might be a better location.
Joseph Robidoux III wrote:
Looks like a good place for some California Fogbowers.
California Bar Journal wrote:
State Bar committees need volunteers
The State Bar is recruiting applicants for approximately 200 volunteer positions on more than three dozen committees, boards and commissions. Groups with open positions range from committees dealing with access and fairness issues to section executive committees focused on particular areas of the law to a committee addressing questions of professional responsibility and conduct.

http://www.calbarjournal.com/December20 ... s/TH5.aspx

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:25 am 
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We don’t know whether or not Orly Taitz will in fact be disbarred in 2012, but we do know that she should be disbarred. How the hell she ever passed the bar in the first place is a mystery that we may never answer. But as we wait and watch to see if Orly Taitz does in fact get disbarred I think we should have a thread to discuss all the reasons why Orly Taitz should be disbarred. If she is not disbarred she should at least be sanctioned, fined and declared a vexatious national menace, and then she should be disbarred anyway.

Orly Taitz has proven over and over that she is not only completely incompetent as a lawyer, but that she is a disgrace to the profession. She has also proven that she has no concept of the meaning of the words “evidence, proof, or reality”, and that her delusions are as endless as the universe. She has already been sanctioned and fined $20,250.00 for her legal incompetence and will very likely be sanctioned again very soon in Hawaii.

So the questions are, what are the reasons that Orly Taitz should be disbarred, what will it take to have Orly Taitz disbarred, and how many times will she be sanctioned before she is disbarred?

Response?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:22 am 
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Not to be snarky, but:

viewforum.php?f=24 IS the list. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:04 am 
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Oh, brain fart.... :oops:

Okay can someone move my post and delete this duplicate thread? ?(

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:13 am 
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MsDaisy wrote:
Oh, brain fart.... :oops:

Okay can someone move my post and delete this duplicate thread? ?(

No no no...! I was unclear. My bad. :oops:

What I meant was that when MsDaisy asks "what are the reasons that Orly Taitz should be disbarred," the answer is the entirety of everything ever posted under the Orly Taitz heading in this forum.

It was kind of a joke, but also troof.

Carry on!

Edit: There is a Disbarment Watch thread, but I leave it to others whether we need a new one for 2012. My point above was NOT that this was duplicative (although it may be). ;;)


Edit: That was fast. Thank you, Mr. and/or Ms. Moderator :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:17 am 
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Oops, merged it into this thread before I read Verbie's last post.

Oh well, I don't think we need a new one for 2012. Sterngard has already alerted us that she will be crowned Lawyer of the Year by the California State Bar this year, in honor of her vast accomplishments and fidelity to the lofty principles of the practice of law.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Just to show that the California bar does actually take action against some lawyers for not following the rulz:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

Maybe they will eventually get around to taking notice of O'rly and disbar her for all discredit she has brought to the CA bar.

Some day we may actually see a headline: Orly Taitz has been disbarred. Some day........

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Borrowing a line of OrlyLaw from Taitz v Fuddy :

Quote:
Not one single judge in the nation stated that Orly Taitz has not been disbarred.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Has Obly Tzitz been Dzitzbarred yet?

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:29 pm 
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tjh wrote:
Borrowing a line of OrlyLaw from Taitz v Fuddy :

Quote:
Not one single judge in the nation stated that Orly Taitz has not been disbarred.


However, I suspect there are quite a few judges who cannot understand why Orly Taitz has not been disbarred or how she was barred in the first place. One of the great unanswered mysteries is how in the world did she get a license to practice law .....or dentistry, for that matter.

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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:38 pm 
Any federal district court bar can impose discipline if warranted regarding its jurisdiction - California does not have a lock on that and in fact it might be inappropriate for California to take action when the federal bar abstains from doing so.

Or in other words why should the state bar act when the federal district bars don't?


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 Post subject: DISBARMENT WATCH
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:36 pm 
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I don't remember if this has been asked before, and I did read a little back up the thread but couldn't find it: Does anyone know if the California bar entertains complaints about attorneys if they are not submitted by the attorneys' clients?

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