Religious Threadjacks

[RTH10260]

James Talarico Exposes The Billionaire Christian Nationalist Pastors In Texas

OuttFoxed
3 Aug 2024

Uncover the truth about the two billionaire mega donors, Tim Dunn and Ferris Wilkes, who are driving the defunding and privatization of public schools in Texas. Discover their ties to far-right churches and their goal of replacing public education with private "Christian" schooling.

[RVInit]

Um, using science to search is using faith, because you are using your faith in science to trust it will reveal the truth at some point. If you don't have faith you wont commence a search for anything.

... because you are using your faith in that the scientific method is getting a correct representation of aspects of nature, better than some two thousand year (and more in the OT) old fabulation.

One of my favorite Tim Minchin poems:

...
Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved

...

[zekeb]

Yup. U.S. Christianity. It's unlike any other.

[roadscholar]

Science is not faith, dogma, or opinion. At the core of science is evidence based on reproducible results.

A scientist in Moscow or Chicago doing the same experiment, or if it’s done by a robot on Mars, now and again in a thousand years, the results will be the same all else being equal.

Reproducibility. Not belief.

And the institution of science is self-policing. A scientific author can garner acclaim by proving a theory wrong. So they are always trying to. If the theory is correct, it will withstand any test.

Fortunately, the Biblical principle “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s” can be applied: Faith, spirituality, belief, belong in the realm of things which cannot be verified by science. And Science should only apply in the realm of things which can be proven or disproven.

This is why Science is actually no threat to Religion whatsoever. I will never understand why anyone thinks it is.

[johnpcapitalist]

This is why Science is actually no threat to Religion whatsoever. I will never understand why anyone thinks it is.

To you, the first sentence is self-evident. But not to Christian evangelicals.

Fundamentalist and literalist faiths are always fragile, whether Christian, Zoroastrian or anything else. They're built on the lazy man's idea that every single word in the holy book is infallible and correct. That's laziness because it excuses one from the need to think critically in grappling with any of the contradictions in the holy text. As a side effect, people who start with the belief in literal and infallible truth have to give up on trying to sort things out and then end up relying on preachers who can only skirt the contradictions by "prooftexting," quoting stuff out of context and not dealing with any sort of nuance. In that morass, anything that disproves even one thing in the book is a threat to the whole edifice of faith that they have constructed.

If the book says "God made the world in seven days" and you come along with repeatable science experiments that prove that the Earth evolved over billions of years and they are threatened. When we discovered that the sun is one of billions of average stars in the Milky Way and that the Milky Way is one of trillions of galaxies in the universe, the proposition that the Earth is the center of the universe is fatally wounded. That one is hard to unsee and to deny.

[roadscholar]

This is why Science is actually no threat to Religion whatsoever. I will never understand why anyone thinks it is.

To you, the first sentence is self-evident. But not to Christian evangelicals.

Fundamentalist and literalist faiths are always fragile, whether Christian, Zoroastrian or anything else. They're built on the lazy man's idea that every single word in the holy book is infallible and correct. That's laziness because it excuses one from the need to think critically in grappling with any of the contradictions in the holy text. As a side effect, people who start with the belief in literal and infallible truth have to give up on trying to sort things out and then end up relying on preachers who can only skirt the contradictions by "prooftexting," quoting stuff out of context and not dealing with any sort of nuance. In that morass, anything that disproves even one thing in the book is a threat to the whole edifice of faith that they have constructed.

If the book says "God made the world in seven days" and you come along with repeatable science experiments that prove that the Earth evolved over billions of years and they are threatened. When we discovered that the sun is one of billions of average stars in the Milky Way and that the Milky Way is one of trillions of galaxies in the universe, the proposition that the Earth is the center of the universe is fatally wounded. That one is hard to unsee and to deny.

To me, the tragedy of literalist idiocy is that it means they are missing the tremendously valuable stuff in the Bible that is couched in metaphor & allegory. It is mythic, in the best sense.

The seven days of Genesis, now that you mention it... the book is fascinating to me (as are the ideas in the ancient Vedas) because seen metaphorically, a bit loosely, they are pretty impressively insightful. The World (the neonatal universe) was without form and void. Inchoate space, the dark Waters. And Light didn't happen at first; how interesting, considering what the current thinking is about the earliest moments of Creation.

My friends who have studied ancient Hindu and later Taoist thought, a lot more than I have, tell me they at times seem to suggest a basis of the material world that resembles quantum mechanics. But only if you dig for treasure in metaphors.

Take "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Yes, they're literally stoning a 'harlot' but that is just the dry bones of the allegory. Obviously. And this misprision handily blinds many American evangelicals to the damn message: that the only sins that are your business are your own. Judge not, lest ye be judged? Not so fast. They can be horribly, toxically judgmental in their daily lives because they don't understand, or ignore, the meaning of their own Book.

The literalists, ironically, have no apprehension of literature. They have neutered and dishonored their Scriptures. They argue about cubits and floods and where Mt. Ararat is, while the message of the story of Noah is neglected... and it shouldn't be, for people of Faith. They suggest that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs. Good grief!

The Prodigal Son. Death and Rebirth. Bread on the Waters. Pearls before Swine.... Unless the Text is interpreted like a poem is, the reader is bogged down in literal minutiae, and its value is forfeit.

[roadscholar]

This is why Science is actually no threat to Religion whatsoever. I will never understand why anyone thinks it is.

To you, the first sentence is self-evident. But not to Christian evangelicals.

Fundamentalist and literalist faiths are always fragile, whether Christian, Zoroastrian or anything else. They're built on the lazy man's idea that every single word in the holy book is infallible and correct. That's laziness because it excuses one from the need to think critically in grappling with any of the contradictions in the holy text. As a side effect, people who start with the belief in literal and infallible truth have to give up on trying to sort things out and then end up relying on preachers who can only skirt the contradictions by "prooftexting," quoting stuff out of context and not dealing with any sort of nuance. In that morass, anything that disproves even one thing in the book is a threat to the whole edifice of faith that they have constructed.

If the book says "God made the world in seven days" and you come along with repeatable science experiments that prove that the Earth evolved over billions of years and they are threatened. When we discovered that the sun is one of billions of average stars in the Milky Way and that the Milky Way is one of trillions of galaxies in the universe, the proposition that the Earth is the center of the universe is fatally wounded. That one is hard to unsee and to deny.

To me, the tragedy of literalist idiocy is that it means they are missing the tremendously valuable stuff in the Bible that is couched in metaphor & allegory. It is mythic, in the best sense.

The seven days of Genesis, now that you mention it... the book is fascinating to me (as are the ideas in the ancient Vedas) because seen metaphorically, a bit loosely, they are pretty impressively insightful. The World (the neonatal universe) was without form and void. Inchoate space, the dark Waters. And Light didn't happen at first; how interesting, considering what the current thinking is about the earliest moments of Creation.

My friends who have studied ancient Hindu and later Taoist thought, a lot more than I have, tell me they at times seem to suggest a basis of the material world that resembles quantum mechanics. But only if you dig for treasure in metaphors.

Take "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Yes, they're literally stoning a 'harlot' but that is just the dry bones of the allegory. Obviously. And this misprision handily blinds many American evangelicals to the damn message: that the only sins that are your business are your own. Judge not, lest ye be judged? Not so fast. They can be horribly, toxically judgmental in their daily lives because they don't understand, or ignore, the meaning of their own Book.

The literalists, ironically, have no apprehension of literature. They have neutered and dishonored their Scriptures. They argue about cubits and floods and where Mt. Ararat is, while the message of the story of Noah is neglected... and it shouldn't be, for people of Faith. They suggest that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs. Good grief!

The Prodigal Son. Death and Rebirth. Bread on the Waters. Pearls before Swine.... Unless the Text is interpreted like a poem is, the reader is bogged down in literal minutiae, and its value is forfeit.

[neonzx]

[Suranis]

Uh... healing Miracles (for example) don't depend on cameras. And the whole thing about "miracles needed for being declared a Saint" hasn't slowed down any. And there are photos of the crowd during the Miracle of Fatima floating around. Examples are on the wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

It looks like someone took a graph about UFO sightings and transplanted Miracles into it. And the resulting graph makes no sense at all when you think about it.

Edit: And since I know people are going to change the subject away from the Graph being bollox by saying "Huh bet you believe that something happened at Fatima therefore you stoopid" or some such, I have to admit I that dunno if the the Miracle of the Sun happened or not.

I mean the rational side of me says that if you look at the sun for any lenght of time you are going to see it doing something, and hallucinate.

But on the other side of it, this Miracle had been prophesied Months in advance. The Anti-clerical papers in Portugal were up in arms laughing about it, predicting that this would be the downfall of the Church. They were all there ready to tear the Visionaries a new one. And then were embarrassed as fuck when they had to admit that their Reporters saw something happen, though they tried to minimise it by saying the Sun just seemed to move around a bit.

And there were a lot of people there who said they saw something so you have to give their witness credit. And others who said they saw nothing, and their witness should be taken into account too.

So, I dunno. But, ya photos of the crowd at Fatima show that Miracles didn't stop with Cameras.

[pipistrelle]

Seen at a church:
Sin burn is prevented by Son screen.

[Rolodex]

Not really a religious story but couldn't find a better place.

So this is the story of a Baptist minister in Tennessee. Afaik, based on the churches he was affiliated with, I would guess that he was probably not a seminary-trained MDiv-type. But whatever.

► Show Spoiler

I'm snobby that way.

A few years ago, he filed for bankruptcy for the church he led.

He also, a few years ago, ran for mayor, lost and then sued the winner for defamation (thrown out of court).

Yesterday, he was arraigned for sexual battery, out on bail.

Today, he went to a hospital and shot himself to death in a bathroom.

https://mainstreetmediatn.com/articles/ ... l-battery/

[Frater I*I]

Yesterday, he was arraigned for sexual battery, out on bail.

Today, he went to a hospital and shot himself to death in a bathroom.

https://mainstreetmediatn.com/articles/ ... l-battery/

I consider that happy ending....

[Rolodex]

I just hope some kid didn't go in there and find him.

[Foggy]

I consider that happy ending....

Gotta disagree on behalf of the hospital staff who had to deal with it. I'd be much happier if he had poisoned himself (without vomiting) and did it privately. It's terribly inconsiderate to leave a big public mess. I feel sorry for the poor employee who discovered the body. If'n you're going to kill yourself, do it with a little class.

I am only partially being facetious. Suicide is stupid, period. Life is good.

[Rolodex]

Yeah, the article says he shot himself in the chest - twice.

[sugar magnolia]

I consider that happy ending....

Gotta disagree on behalf of the hospital staff who had to deal with it. I'd be much happier if he had poisoned himself (without vomiting) and did it privately. It's terribly inconsiderate to leave a big public mess. I feel sorry for the poor employee who discovered the body. If'n you're going to kill yourself, do it with a little class.

I am only partially being facetious. Suicide is stupid, period. Life is good.

A bloody mess is probably much less stressful to hospital staff than pretty much any other single group of people. Handling bloody messes is pretty much their job description. Gunshot wounds are not exactly out of their wheelhouse either.

Suicide is stupid.

[Foggy]

Oh, y'know I just had all those surgeries, and the only people who saw a bloody mess were in the OR itself. My nurses never saw a drop of blood. Not everyone sees blood.

In the Emergency Room, yeah. I had a buddy whose mom worked the ER in our nation's capital, and the stories ...

But lots of hospital employees never see untreated gunshot wounds. I guess I hope this one was inured to the sight.

Edit: Spellchecker did NOT want me to use the word 'inured'. It tried insured. It tried injured. I had to train it.

[pipistrelle]

They don't say whether it was a room bathroom or a public one. As a frequent flyer at the local hospital, I wouldn't want to walk into a suicide by gunshot. But having been a pastor who'd been outed as a sex offender, he may not have seen any other options he could live with.

Might the second shot have been a reflex?

[northland10]

Not really a religious story but couldn't find a better place.

So this is the story of a Baptist minister in Tennessee. Afaik, based on the churches he was affiliated with, I would guess that he was probably not a seminary-trained MDiv-type. But whatever.

► Show Spoiler

I'm snobby that way.

A few years ago, he filed for bankruptcy for the church he led.

He also, a few years ago, ran for mayor, lost and then sued the winner for defamation (thrown out of court).

Yesterday, he was arraigned for sexual battery, out on bail.

Today, he went to a hospital and shot himself to death in a bathroom.

https://mainstreetmediatn.com/articles/ ... l-battery/

It would appear he was part of the independent Fundamentalist Baptist movement (many flavors of this out there) and the First Baptist Church of Hammond, and the Fallen in Grace group started by David Hyles (son of the founder of FBC, Hammond).
https://www.yahoo.com/news/columbia-pas ... 17522.html

So, what about Hyles, and FBC Hammond? I had forgotten about them. I read through a few things and really need a shower. This guy from Tennessee seems to have continued to tradition of many of the leaders of this group/cult.

https://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Maga ... st-Church/

The following article mentions a larger investigation done by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. They listed the churches investigated by the Star-Telegram, and Baker's Family Baptist was on the list, and this was in 2018.
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/r ... 257095002/

ETA: He had 11 children.

[northland10]

So this is the story of a Baptist minister in Tennessee. Afaik, based on the churches he was affiliated with, I would guess that he was probably not a seminary-trained MDiv-type. But whatever.

► Show Spoiler

I'm snobby that way.

He received a Bachelor’s Degree in Pastoral Theology and a Master’s Degree in Education from Hyles-Anderson College in Crown Point, Indiana and a Doctorate in Divinity from Texas Baptist College in Longview, Texas.

Well, he did do a DD from an accredited school (attached to the SBC), but his other degrees were from unaccredited Hyles-Anderson which is affiliated with First Baptist, Hammond, iN (see above).

[northland10]

There was also an Investigative Discovery show "Let Us Prey" on MAX last year. I don't think I watched it and would need to prep my emotions beforehand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_Us_Pr ... f_Scandals

[Rolodex]

Thanks for diving into that nasty rabbit hole. Pretty much what I figured.