Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#276

Post by GreatGrey » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:19 pm

There was an INS agent in the birthing room who administered an oath to a newborn?


I am not "someone upthread".
Trump needs to be smashed into some kind of inedible orange pâté.

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bob
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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#277

Post by bob » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:32 pm

Donofrio [/break1]wordpress.com/2011/12/01/debunking-the-new-natural-born-citizen-congressional-research-propaganda/#comment-20165]comment:


He added that the father of [Kwock Jan Fat] [highlight]was native born[/highlight] and was a voter in that community.I smell desperation. If I ever tried to cut up quotes like this… and re-assemble them in such a recklessly cavalier manner, the Court would thrash me. It would be ugly as all hell. Nobody is submitting Frankenstein’s monster to the SCOTUS, not unless they want to be reemed out in oral argument.





The CRS memo is so full of holes… swiss cheese of the rotten variety. I would take a sledgehammer to it, but all I need is a xylophone mallet. Coming soon…I am reconsidering; Maskell may have overstated this case. SCOTUS did say that Kwock Jan Fat's father was born in the United States. (I suspect Donofrio added the above comment in response to my question.) SCOTUS does not refer to the parents as U.S. citizens. (Donofrio assumes Kwock Jan Fat's mother became a U.S. citizen upon marriage, but that isn't necessarily correct.)





The government's pre-1898 view, of course, was someone with foreign allegiances was not "subject to" U.S. jurisdiction, and thus not a U.S. citizen under the 14th Amendment. Under that rationale, Kwock Jan Fat's father's birth in the United States did not grant him U.S. citizenship (as his parents were Chinese immigrants and therefore had allegiance to China). As such, Kwock Jan Fat' was not a citizen, and his birth in the United States also did not grant him U.S. citizenship.





So SCOTUS may have been characterizing Kwock Jan Fat's parents' citizenship in the terms it would have been presumed and understood at the time of Kwock Jan Fat's birth. Or Maskell may have read too much into SCOTUS's omission regarding the parents' citizenship.





Regardless, it is clearly dicta; the case is actually about a due process violation alleged during the hearing in which Kwock Jan Fat tried to demonstrate his U.S. citizenship. Nonetheless, birthers now will cite this case as "proof" two citizen parents (and birth in the United States) is required for natural-born citizenship.





Thanks, Jack.


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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#278

Post by Epectitus » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:39 pm

Leo's bullshit lying "analysis" is posted at ORYR.And bullshit it is.





Here is Leo's spin:





When you look carefully at Maskell’s creative use of quotation marks, you’ll see that the statement is NOT a quote from the case, but rather a Frankenstein inspired patchwork. He starts the reversed vivisection off with the following:





“(i)t is not disputed that if petitioner is the son…”





These are the first few words of a genuine quote from the Court’s opinion. Then Maskell goes way out of context for the next two body parts. The first is not in quotation marks:





of two Chinese national citizens who were physically in the United States when petitioner was born, then he is





And finally, an unrelated quote from elsewhere in the Court’s opinion:





“a natural born American citizen ….”





Put it all together and you get the following monstrosity:





…the Supreme Court of the United States explained that “(i)t is not disputed that if petitioner is the son” of two Chinese national citizens who were physically in the United States when petitioner was born, then he is “a natural born American citizen ….”The worst part about this furious parsing is the assertion that the label of "natural born citizen" was from "an unrelated quote from elsewhere in the Court’s opinion."





In fact, here is the relevant paragraph from the decision (completely unedited except for color):





It is not disputed that if petitioner is the son of Kwock Tuck Lee and his wife, Tom Ying Shee, he was born to them when they were permanently domiciled in the United States, is a citizen thereof, and is entitled to admission to the country. United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649. But, while it is conceded that he is certainly the same person who, upon full investigation, was found, in March, 1915, by the then Commissioner of Immigration, to be a natural born American citizen, the claim is that that Commissioner was deceived, and that petitioner is really Lew Suey Chong, who was admitted to this country in 1909 as a son of a Chinese merchant, Lew Wing Tong, of Oakland, California.In Leo's dishonest world, the very next sentence in the same paragraph is "an unrelated quote from elsewhere in the Court’s opinion."





I would slap the man, were I not afraid of pissing off the other two members of The Trinity.


"Hell, I would wear a dress and ruby red slippers all year if we can prove this" - Mike Zullo

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Slarti the White
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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#279

Post by Slarti the White » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:43 pm

I would slap the man, were I not afraid of pissing off the other two members of The Trinity.I don't know, if Leo is the best they can do for the Holy Spirit, then I wouldn't worry about the other two...


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#280

Post by mimi » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:16 pm

Doc C uploaded the document to scribd for use on his blog. Chris Strunk left several comments. I think it boils down to this one for him:JACK MASKELL another JESUIT co-adjutor working the CIA's extirpation program!He also asked:What is a rating below zero stars?To which SDB responded:one strunk :lol:



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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#281

Post by bob » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:29 am

I wrote to Maskell about the Kwock cite; he kindly responded:I agree that case cite needs clarification to emphasize that Kwock and one witness did aver that his father was born in the United States. It is important, I think, that the Court only mentioned that the parents were permanently "domiciled" in the United States, and thus did not appear to rely on citizenship status, when they accepted the characterization of the Commissioner of Immigration that he was a natural born citizen.


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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#282

Post by bob » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:35 pm

A [/break1]blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7466841558189356289&postID=8404387115940856376]comment at Apuzzo's:If Roger Clemens had lied to Congress as boldly as Jack Maskell, he would be in prison and they would have thrown away the key. If only the Constitution were as important as baseball to our Congress. Let your Congressman know that Mr. Maskell's open deceit will not serve as an acceptable excuse for their own behavior. They have all been fully and accurately informed. They all know that Obama is ineligible. Like the Obama birth certificates, the Maskell notice is not worth the paper it's written on. [highlight]They need to find another researcher and send this one to jail[/highlight].This isn't the first comment I've seen demanding that Maskell be jailed for lying.If giving bad legal advice to public officials was a crime.... :-


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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#283

Post by mimi » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:17 am

squeeky wrote a few posts recently. You might wanna make a visit.[/break1]wordpress.com/]http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/I saw that one of the links in one of squeeky's posts led back to jonathan turley's blog. a few fogbowers are there.[/break1]org/2011/10/23/holdings-dicta-and-stare-decisis/#comment-296985]http://jonathanturley.org/2011/10/23/ho ... ent-296985just thought you might wanna take a look.



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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#284

Post by Slarti the White » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:59 am

squeeky wrote a few posts recently. You might wanna make a visit.[/break1]wordpress.com/]http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/I saw that one of the links in one of squeeky's posts led back to jonathan turley's blog. a few fogbowers are there.[/break1]org/2011/10/23/holdings-dicta-and-stare-decisis/#comment-296985]http://jonathanturley.org/2011/10/23/ho ... ent-296985just thought you might wanna take a look.Squeeky has her own thread, you know... :- http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopi ... 889There's been a lot of discussion about Squeeky on a variety of threads that would probably be better collected there. Just sayin'...


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#285

Post by raicha » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:01 pm

I believe the point of Mimi's post is not about Squeeky, but to get us to take a look at Jonathan Turley's musings on the law contained the CRS memo...



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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#286

Post by Slarti the White » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:18 pm

Raicha,





The point of my post was about Squeeky, though--I think she's interesting...





I would also note that the thread at Professor Turley's blog was started by one of his guest bloggers (David Drum aka "Nal") and that Professor Turley has not commented on it at all (as is his custom). What you'll find there is a bunch of lawyers (primarily Nal and Ballantine) patiently explaining to Leo (before he bravely ran away to preserve his birther ranking...) and his birther chorus that they are full of shit (I [/break1]org/2011/10/23/holdings-dicta-and-stare-decisis/#comment-292845]proved that Minor v. Happerset doesn't say what Leo says it does, by the way...).





Plus me being mean to birthers--ain't I a stinker? :twisted:


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#287

Post by raicha » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:25 pm

Raicha,





The point of my post was about Squeeky, though--I think she's interesting...





I would also note that the thread at Professor Turley's blog was started by one of his guest bloggers (David Drum aka "Nal") and that Professor Turley has not commented on it at all (as is his custom). What you'll find there is a bunch of lawyers (primarily Nal and Ballantine) patiently explaining to Leo (before he bravely ran away to preserve his birther ranking...) and his birther chorus that they are full of shit (I [/break1]org/2011/10/23/holdings-dicta-and-stare-decisis/#comment-292845]proved that Minor v. Happerset doesn't say what Leo says it does, by the way...).





Plus me being mean to birthers--ain't I a stinker? :twisted:Whatever.





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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#288

Post by mimi » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:37 pm

slarti, i posted it here cuz it's what came to mind. if you think it should go elsewhere, that's fine with me.either PM me (cuz I can't move it once someone posts after me) or copy/paste it to another topic (like you did).the copy/paste thing is better cuz i might not pay attention to the other. it happens.



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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#289

Post by Slarti the White » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:54 pm

slarti, i posted it here cuz it's what came to mind. if you think it should go elsewhere, that's fine with me.either PM me (cuz I can't move it once someone posts after me) or copy/paste it to another topic (like you did).the copy/paste thing is better cuz i might not pay attention to the other. it happens.Mimi,I didn't PM you because I didn't want to bother you, I just think that there has been interesting discussion about (and many interesting posts by) Squeeky lately and wanted to make the suggestion that people use the existing thread about her (should anyone else be interested in discussing this). I felt that cross-posting on the two threads was sufficient (and wouldn't bother anyone)--I didn't mean to make a big deal out of it... :oops:


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#290

Post by bob » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:13 pm

I was rereading Maskell's report, and I found footnote 100 (on page 22) to be interesting:The English phrase “natural born citizen” in early French translations of the U.S. Constitution’s Article II, §1, cl. 5, however, was interpreted as either “[hlyellow]citoyen-né[/hlyellow]” ([a “born citizen”] John Stevens or Warren Livingston, EXAMEN DU GOUVERNEMENT D’ANGLETERRE, COMPARE AUX CONSTITUTIONS DES ÉTAT-UNIS,” at 257 (Paris 1789)), or “[hlyellow]citoyen né dans les États-Unis[/hlyellow],” ([a “citizen born in the United States”], L.-P. Conseil, MÉLANGES POLITIQUES ET PHILOSPHIQUES, “Constitution Des États-Unis,” at 160 (Paris 1833), and M. Du Ponceau, EXPOSÉ SOMMAIRE DE LA CONSTITUTION DES ÉTATS-UNIS D’AMÉRIQUE, at 45 (Paris 1837)), or in more recent French translations, “[hlyellow]citoyen de naissance[/hlyellow]” (“citizen at birth”). [hlyellow]None of these French expressions for the English term “natural born citizen” were used by Vattel[/hlyellow].That bears repeating: In [hlyellow]1789[/hlyellow], the French translated "natural-born citizen" into "citoyen-né."


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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#291

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:52 pm

Makes sense. And Vattel wasn't French.



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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#292

Post by Slarti the White » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:59 pm

Great find Bob!



Someone should tell Mario.


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#293

Post by Foggy » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:13 am

You were re-reading the footnotes1 in a report written so long ago, we hadn't even discussed it for almost 40 months ... :-?





1Seek professional help, bob. :lol:





Yes, I think someone should tell Mario. He has so much respect for Jack Maskell, I'm sure this will brighten his day! :banana:


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Congressional Research Service debunking of Birtherism (2nd CRS memo found)

#294

Post by bob » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:28 pm



Washington Monthly: Why I Quit the Congressional Research Service. An interesting read; too much to summarize, but:  Political paralysis has reduced the once vaunted think tank to trivial constituant servicing for those who don't know how to use the Internet.


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