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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

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Uninformed
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1551

Post by Uninformed »

I would be interested to read johnpcapitalist’s views, if any, on the real effects of this ruling. I don’t know enough about US financial/business regulations/laws to come to any conclusions, but experience tells me that there are undoubtedly many ways to delay or circumvent its worst effects.
Possibly the best outcome is that it may cause more voters to turn away from tfg, although I am sure there will be many people, beyond the maga base, who will see this as just a case of a rich business person doing what rich business people do.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1552

Post by Mr brolin »

Well if we want to go all Capitalist...... The father of such doth have some pithy and apposite quotes....

"Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent.”
― Adam Smith

"It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”
― Adam Smith

“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.”
― Adam Smith

“The interest of [businessmen] is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order ... ought never to be adopted, till after having been long and carefully examined ... with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men ... who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public”
― Adam Smith
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1553

Post by Kendra »

Fox & friends is going to discuss ruling after the break. Matt Whittaker on board to weigh in with his expert opinion 😊
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1554

Post by Foggy »

Foggy wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:02 pm I would like to say it again:

Eighty three point three million dollars. (E. Jean Carroll's case)

:biggrin:
I would like to say it again:

Four hundred and fifty five million dollars (and interest growing every day).



Yanno, $83.3 million here, $455 million there, pretty soon we're talking about real money. :?
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1555

Post by chancery »

chancery wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:49 pm
SuzieC wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:15 pm I’m seeing reports that there’s also pre-judgement interest accrued on the penalties (NY has a mandated 9% interest rate) that could push the totals up to $450 million or more.
You'd need to get into the details of the various liability findings to be in a position to do a reliable estimate of prejudgment interest, and even then you could be wrong. There's an element of judicial discretion in picking the accrual dates.

Attorney General James has said that the figure is $450 million, and her office knows the record better than anyone. That said, there might be an element of advocacy in that figure; we won't know the final number until the judge issues an order on the subject.
Still only nibbling intermittently at the decision, but I've just found the page where the judge exercised his discretion as to the calculation of prejudgment interest:
Pre-Judgment Interest
Public policy favors awarding interest in equity actions. 5 Weinstein–Korn–Miller, NY Civ Prac ¶ 5001.06, at 50–24.

CPLR 5001(b) directs that:
Interest shall be computed from the earliest ascertainable date the cause of action existed, except that interest upon damages incurred thereafter shall be computed from the date incurred. Where such damages were incurred at various time, interest shall be computed upon each item from the date it was incurred or upon all of the damages from a single reasonable intermediate date.
“Further, a defendant’s ‘corrupt intent or desire for personal profit’ is a factor to be weighed in the court’s exercise of discretion pursuant to CPLR 5001. Hynes v Iadarola, 221 AD2d 131, 135 (2d Dept 1996) (further holding equitable relief favors granting prejudgment interest as “the awards of prejudgment interest on the ground that these awards ‘deprive the defendants of their ill-gotten gains prevent unjust enrichment and accord with the doctrine of fundamental fairness’”) (internal citations omitted).
Weighing these public policy considerations, the Court directs that pre-judgment interest, per CPLR 5004(a),55 shall run from the following dates: (1) March 4, 2019, the date the Attorney General commenced its investigation, for all disgorgement of ill-gotten interest savings on the Doral, Trump Chicago, Old Post Office, and 40 Wall Street loans; (2) June 26, 2023, the date of the sale of the Ferry Point lease, for all ill-gotten profits obtained from the sale; (3) May 11, 2022, the date of the sale of the Old Post Office, for all ill-gotten profits obtained from the sale; and (4) January 9, 2023, the date that Allen Weisselberg entered into his Separation Agreement, for all ill-gotten payments to Weisselberg designed to ensure his continued loyalty to the Trump Organization and his non-cooperation with law enforcement.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1556

Post by Kendra »

Fox is struggling to report this, even on a more serious show with Neil Cavuto. He had several people on trying to help him sort out the facts as Fox sees them. Victimless crimes, banks were paid and no harm, besides these old laws no-one knew of and never before used, so of course it must be political. ;)
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1557

Post by much ado »

Foggy wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 12:36 pm
Foggy wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:02 pm I would like to say it again:

Eighty three point three million dollars. (E. Jean Carroll's case)

:biggrin:
I would like to say it again:

Four hundred and fifty five million dollars (and interest growing every day).



Yanno, $83.3 million here, $455 million there, pretty soon we're talking about real money. :?
I calculated the interest to be a bit over $114k per day.

ETA:

9% annual interest is 0.0246% a day, times $455 million, equals $112,191.78 a day.
I must have used a different base number.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1558

Post by MN-Skeptic »

It's amusing to see FoxNews' take on these cases -

Trump's penalty could cause NY biz exodus to FL, as New York State becomes 'legal banana republic': experts
Legal experts analyzed what they called "breathtaking" civil penalties against former President Donald Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump, former Trump Organization Comptroller Jeffrey McConney and ex-CFO Allen Weisselberg – warning other corporations based in the Empire State may realize they could suddenly be put out of business by the state on a political whim.
In that regard, former Bush White House press secretary Ari Fleischer told Fox News the ban may spur Trump to relocate his entire business empire to Florida, just as he has his primary residence.

"If you're Eric [or] Donald Junior, what are you going to do?" he asked.

"[Y]ou just say goodbye to New York, which fits a pattern that many successful people have been doing and leaving New York because New York is just too political, too blue and too punitive – you're seeing that in the business community and among upper income New Yorkers already," he said – adding the state's crime wave accentuates the issue.

George Washington University Law Prof. Jonathan Turley further commented to Fox News that Engoron appeared to compound the highest fine figures in most of the areas adjudicated – noting that New York's civil law in this area is unique because the proverbial crime can essentially be victimless.

"[It's] an odd one because it does not require that anyone actually lose money. And so James was able to come in here with this [fraud] figure, and she kept on going up."

Turley said the public and other legal officials may indeed take note of Trump world's penalty, because, "when you're imposing fines larger than the budget of some countries, you really have to wonder whether you've allowed your thoughts to run away with your judgment."

"It's one of the greatest ironies of this case: In the name of protecting businesses in New York, you probably just led to hundreds of businesses looking at potential rentals in Florida because they look and they go, ‘wow, if we fall on the wrong side of the politics in New York, they could sell us off for spare parts’."
:roll:
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1559

Post by Slim Cognito »

Or they could, you know, not break the law.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1560

Post by much ado »

A more likely effect, rather than leaving NY, is that NY businesses will double-check to make sure that they are in compliance with the law.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1561

Post by RTH10260 »

Question about the Old Post Office Hotel sale: how did they determine there was ill-gotten gains on that, cause iirc the T clan did not get the price they wanted from the new owners.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1562

Post by jcolvin2 »

Kendra wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 1:44 pm Fox is struggling to report this, even on a more serious show with Neil Cavuto. He had several people on trying to help him sort out the facts as Fox sees them. Victimless crimes, banks were paid and no harm, besides these old laws no-one knew of and never before used, so of course it must be political. ;)
There are federal civil penalties for submitting false financial statements to banks. More than 20 years ago, the local US Attorney' Office had a program whereby it would bring civil actions against borrowers for the fraud even when the loans had been fully repaid and the financial institution had not lost any money. For settlement purposes, the standard penalty amount was 10% of the amount of the loan. If the case went to trial, a larger penalty would be sought. Bringing civil penalty actions against borrowers for false financial statements - even when there is no dollar loss - is hardly a novel proposition.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1563

Post by Slim Cognito »

I wondered that, too. I do remember there being about $4 million in contractor liens cuz...trump.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1564

Post by W. Kevin Vicklund »

RTH10260 wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 2:21 pm Question about the Old Post Office Hotel sale: how did they determine there was ill-gotten gains on that, cause iirc the T clan did not get the price they wanted from the new owners.
There's an entire section on that, starting on page 83:
As with so many Trump real estate deals, the Old Post Office contract was obtained through the use of false SFCs (no false SFCs, no deal). Thus, the net profits received on its sale were illgotten gains, subject to disgorgement, which is meant to deny defendants “the ability to profit from ill-gotten gain.” Hynes v Iadarola, 221 AD2d 131, 135 (2d Dept 1996).

Plaintiff has also argued that without the ill-gotten savings on interest rates, defendants would not even have been able to invest in the Old Post Office and/or other projects. To that end, plaintiff asserts that the interest rate savings from defendants’ use of the fraudulent SFCs also allowed them to preserve capital to invest in other projects that they would not have been able to otherwise. 54 Plaintiff asserts that by 2017, after deducting the $16,500,0000 Vornado partnership interest, fraudulently labeled as cash, Trump would have been in a negative cash position (without the $73,811,815 saved through reduced interest payments). Plaintiff further asserts that without the interest savings from the use of the fraudulent SFCs, Donald Trump would have been in a negative cash position in every year from 2017-2020 (which would have violated his loan covenants).

Plaintiff also argues that the Old Post Office loan itself was a construction loan, and its proceeds were necessary to the construction and renovation of the hotel, which enabled the 2022 sale and resulting profits.

Of the three theories advanced by plaintiff, the first is by far the strongest; but all three, viewed collectively, support disgorgement of the profits defendants received from the sale of the Old Post Office as ill-gotten gains.
ETA additional paragraphs
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1565

Post by sterngard friegen »

Jonathan Turley's best and favorite student was . . . . . Michael Avenatti.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1566

Post by RTH10260 »

MTN Ben Meiselas elaborates at length (and stretches the spacetime continuum)

At issue is his take on the modification re suspension of the NY business license in the summary judgment. It seems that Engoron now makes the suspension dependant on good business behavior in the near future and the observations of the court appointed monitor.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1567

Post by johnpcapitalist »

Uninformed wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 2:48 am I would be interested to read johnpcapitalist’s views, if any, on the real effects of this ruling. I don’t know enough about US financial/business regulations/laws to come to any conclusions, but experience tells me that there are undoubtedly many ways to delay or circumvent its worst effects.
Possibly the best outcome is that it may cause more voters to turn away from tfg, although I am sure there will be many people, beyond the maga base, who will see this as just a case of a rich business person doing what rich business people do.
My experience has been with publicly traded stocks, not nests of private entities like the Trump empire. About all I can say is pretty obvious: damned if you do, damned if you don't regarding the appeal. If he walks away from the appeal, he's going to be branded as a loser, folding in two out of two embarrassing and expensive court losses (I don't know how many days are left on the 30-day clock for appealing in the E. Jean Carroll case). But then he's got the monitor running the piggy bank for the next three years, so he probably can't keep stiffing the plaintiffs per usual practice.

If he wants to appeal, he's got to put up that massive bond, which he probably doesn't have in cash lying around. If he says he's going to appeal but can't come up with the $$, he's going to look like a failure. In the past, he probably would have cranked up another shell game to get a loan to cover the appeal bond. But the monitor is certainly not going to allow that.

The speculation that the Saudis or other questionable foreign entity is going to bail him out seems a little panicky. I think the Saudis have to realize that Biden could in fact win the election, and if they attempted to bail out Trump, Biden would come down on them pretty hard. Recall that we're actually oil exporters now, thanks to fracking, and we don't need Saudi oil. So the consequences to us of pulling out of mutual defense treaties when they're increasingly worried about Iranian aggression would backfire badly on the Saudis. So while it's possible, it's not at all certain that they would play sugar daddy, even after a (hypothetical) Trump victory. I'm sure that such a quid pro quo would ultimately be breaking some sort of law, though I don't know what it would be... FARA, perhaps?
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1568

Post by Uninformed »

Thanks :thumbsup:
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1569

Post by GlimDropper »

Massive Scientologist and Conman Grant Cardone is crowd funding for Trump's judgment. He's already raised over a half a million.

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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1570

Post by RTH10260 »

GoFundMe Addresses Calls To Halt Donald Trump Fundraiser Launched To Pay $355M Fine

Favour Adegoke
Tue, February 20, 2024 at 12:58 AM GMT+1

GoFundMe has an answer for those who have asked if Donald Trump's fundraiser on their site goes against their policy.

The page has so far raised over $500k since being launched to help the billionaire mogul pay off the $355 million fine from his New York fraud trial.

In the aftermath of Trump being slammed with a whopping $355 million fine for fraudulently inflating his assets in financial documents by a New York court, MAGA supporters started raising funds via GoFundMe to offset the fine for the billionaire mogul.

The page, launched by Elena Cardone, the wife of real estate mogul Grant Cardone, has since raised over $500,000 and counting. However, several individuals took to social media to call out GoFundMe, saying that the fundraiser violates their policy. Some even put up screenshots of the company's terms of service in a bid to draw their attention to their complaints.

In response to the callouts, Jalen Drummond, the director of public affairs at the company, told Newsweek, "This fundraiser is currently within our terms of service."

This means that the fundraiser would be allowed to continue, allowing more MAGA supporters to pool their funds for the embattled billionaire and business mogul.




https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/gof ... 45264.html
(original: theblast)
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1571

Post by Rolodex »

People donating are the same folks griping about high inflation and how they can't afford anything.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1572

Post by raison de arizona »

It's within their terms of service because it is raising for a civil judgment, is my understanding. If it were for a criminal fine or lawyer costs, they would pull the plug. But it is expressly for the civil judgment, so I guess it is ok. It's up to nearly $700k. Only $354.3M left to go.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1573

Post by much ado »

I kind of like it how Trump has turned into a blood-sucking parasite on conservative fund-raising. There's less money to go to Republican candidates or conservative causes in general. And the RNC seems to be morphing into parasitic mouth parts for Trump's insatiable appetite. I hope he sucks them dry.
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1574

Post by Reality Check »

Of course the fact that GoFundMe gets a cut of the money played no part in their decision. :nope:
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State of New York vs Trump, et al - the civil fraud case against the Trump Organization

#1575

Post by RTH10260 »

NY AG says she may seize Trump assets if he doesn’t pay $355 million fine

by Nick Robertson -
02/20/24 6:33 PM ET

New York Attorney General Letitia James (D) is prepared to seize former President Trump’s assets if he does not pay the nearly $355 million verdict levied against him in a civil business fraud trial last week, she told ABC News on Tuesday.

“If he does not have funds to pay off the judgment, then we will seek judgment enforcement mechanisms in court, and we will ask the judge to seize his assets,” she told ABC News.

The $355 million verdict and additional $100 million in prejudgment interest handed down Friday are the largest financial penalty levied against Trump and his companies amid his various legal cases. Legal experts have speculated that the massive penalty could require Trump to sell some of his real estate empire.

Trump’s attorneys have vowed to appeal the case, accusing Judge Arthur Engoron of judicial malpractice and labeling the case politically motivated. Trump attorney Alina Habba called the verdict “manifest injustice” and the culmination of a “multi-year, politically fueled witch hunt that was designed to ‘take down Donald Trump.’”

James said she is confident that she will succeed in appeal, and listed Trump’s 40 Wall Street tower by name as one asset that could be taken.

“We are prepared to make sure that the judgment is paid to New Yorkers, and yes, I look at 40 Wall Street each and every day,” she said.



https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... lion-fine/
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