Greg Abbott - Gregory Wayne Abbott, former TX AG, now 48th Governor of Texas

[Dave from down under]

What a load of… balls..

[Azastan]

Why is he calling it a marine barrier?

Should be "riverine speed bump", I think.

I think you have a perfectly valid description of the project, thank you!

[keith]

Just asking here... isn't this a 'navigable river'?

Seems to me that blocking such a river would be a Federal crime, not to mention an International scandal since it also serves as a border.

[Dave from down under]

Interference with free navigation..

[much ado]

From Wikipedia...

Navigation. Although the river's greatest depth is 60 feet (18 m), the Rio Grande generally cannot be navigated by passenger riverboats or by cargo barges. Navigation is only possible near the mouth of the river, in rare circumstances up to Laredo, Texas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Grande

[keith]

IANAL, of course, but it is my understanding that 'navigable' doesn't just mean that you can get a commercial barge up it.

[keith]

From Wikipedia...

Navigation. Although the river's greatest depth is 60 feet (18 m), the Rio Grande generally cannot be navigated by passenger riverboats or by cargo barges. Navigation is only possible near the mouth of the river, in rare circumstances up to Laredo, Texas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Grande

Next Paragraph:

Navigation was active during much of the 19th century,[14] with over 200 different steamboats operating between the river's mouth close to Brownsville and Rio Grande City, Texas. Many steamboats from the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers were requisitioned by the U.S. government and moved to the Rio Grande during the Mexican–American War in 1846. They provided transport for the U.S. Army, under General Zachary Taylor, to invade Monterrey, Nuevo León, via Camargo Municipality, Tamaulipas. Army engineers recommended that with small improvements, the river could easily be made navigable as far north as El Paso.[citation needed] Those recommendations were never acted upon.

Wikipedia: Navigability

...
In The United States

What constitutes 'navigable' waters can not be separated from the context in which the question is asked. Numerous federal agencies define jurisdiction based on navigable waters, including admiralty jurisdiction, pollution control, to the licensing of dams, and even property boundaries.
...
Navigable waters, as defined by the US Army Corps of Engineers as codified under 33 CFR 329, are those waters that are subject to the ebb and flow of the tide, and those inland waters that are presently used, or have been used in the past, or may be susceptible for use to transport interstate or foreign commerce while the waterway is in its ordinary condition at the time of statehood. Section 10 of the Rivers and Harbors Act of 1899 (33 U.S.C. 403), approved 3 March 1899, prohibits the unauthorized obstruction of a navigable water of the U.S. This statute also requires a permit from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for any construction in or over any navigable water, or the excavation or discharge of material into such water, or the accomplishment of any other work affecting the course, location, condition, or capacity of such waters. However, the ACOE recognizes that only the judiciary can make a definitive ruling as to which are navigable waters.
...
Also, the Clean Water Act has introduced the terms "traditional navigable waters," and "waters of the United States" to define the scope of Federal jurisdiction under the Clean Water Act. Here, "Waters of the United States" include not only navigable waters, but also tributaries of navigable waters and nearby wetlands with "a significant nexus to navigable waters"; both are covered under the Clean Water Act. Therefore, the Clean Water Act establishes Federal jurisdiction beyond "navigable waters" extending a more limited federal jurisdiction under the Act over private property which may at times be submerged by waters.

I'm emphasizing the "at the time of statehood' thing. Today, only 20% of the river's flow reaches the mouth - so the 60 foot depth doesn't play into it - at statehood a whole lot more water was flowing, and the Corps of Engineers wanted to make "small improvements" to make it navigable as far as El Paso/Ciuadad Juarez. Also, irrigation dams are licensed under the navigation authority of the Corps of Engineers and, of course, International Treaty.

So we know that at the time of statehood the river was navigable by steamboat at least as far as Laredo, and very little work would be needed to make it navigable to El Paso. These floatie things are going in at Eagle Pass which is above Laredo by about half again the distance from Brownsville to Laredo.

Again IANAL, but my conclusion is that the United States would have a good argument if they decided to push the matter, and so would Mexico.

[tek]

What's with all this maritime law?
Next thing you know we'll be talking about fringy flags!

[keith]

What's with all this maritime law?
Next thing you know we'll be talking about fringy flags!

[neeneko]

Again IANAL, but my conclusion is that the United States would have a good argument if they decided to push the matter, and so would Mexico.

Heh. I was popping into this thread just to see if someone with more domain knowledge than myself had weighed in on this.

When this barrier made the news again this morning, my first though was 'wait, what does thar army corp of engineers have to say about this?' since it seems like a navigation hazzard...

[raison de arizona]

Texas sued over plan to deploy floating barrier on Rio Grande to curb border crossings

The owner of a Texas canoe and kayaking company filed a lawsuit on Friday seeking to stop the installation of a marine floating barrier on the Rio Grande, claiming Gov. Greg Abbott has no right to regulate the border.

The lawsuit was filed on the same day that Texas started deploying buoys for the barrier in an attempt to deter migrant crossings on the river along the US-Mexico border.

The suit lists the state of Texas and Abbott, as well as the Texas Department of Public Safety and the Texas National Guard. CNN has reached out to Abbott’s office for comment.

The lawsuit alleges the buoys will prevent Epi’s and Fuentes, the company’s owner-operator, from conducting tours and canoe and kayak sessions in the border town Eagle Pass, causing “imminent and irreparable harm to EPI.”

The suit accuses the Republican governor of misapplying the Texas Disaster Act of 1975 to justify the buoy system – which “has no logical connection to the purpose of the Disaster Act, which is to respond to ‘the occurrence or imminent threat of widespread or severe damage, injury, or loss of life or property resulting from any natural or man-made cause.’ “

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/08/us/texas ... index.html

[tek]

The suit accuses the Republican governor of misapplying the Texas Disaster Act of 1975 to justify the buoy system – which “has no logical connection to the purpose of the Disaster Act, which is to respond to ‘the occurrence or imminent threat of widespread or severe damage, injury, or loss of life or property resulting from any natural or man-made cause.’ “

Oh, I could easily see a RWNJ judge disagreeing with that.

[Ben-Prime]

The suit accuses the Republican governor of misapplying the Texas Disaster Act of 1975 to justify the buoy system – which “has no logical connection to the purpose of the Disaster Act, which is to respond to ‘the occurrence or imminent threat of widespread or severe damage, injury, or loss of life or property resulting from any natural or man-made cause.’ “

Oh, I could easily see a RWNJ judge disagreeing with that.

The trick would be in disagreeing in a way that wouldn't bite them on the butt when a certain Democratic administration makes similar use of emergency powers.

[neeneko]

The trick would be in disagreeing in a way that wouldn't bite them on the butt when a certain Democratic administration makes similar use of emergency powers.

Yeah, but then they can fall back on 'is this an emergency in line with our traditional american values?'. So environment? Nah, America never cared about that.... health crisis? Nope, not an American crisis.. student loans ruining lives and dragging the economy down? Nah, we've never cared about that! too many immigrants?? Well, that is a traditional American emergency!

[raison de arizona]

Note the barefoot child who looks to be about 5 y/o, running through the Rio Grande alongside the razor-wire where Texas is deploying Gov. Abbott’s “floating wall.”

This diabolical project is intended to trap & drown migrants. “Deterrence,” they call it…

► Show Spoiler

[RTH10260]

https://twitter.com/LaikenJordahl/statu ... 61808?s=20

Note the barefoot child who looks to be about 5 y/o, running through the Rio Grande alongside the razor-wire where Texas is deploying Gov. Abbott’s “floating wall.”

This diabolical project is intended to trap & drown migrants. “Deterrence,” they call it…

► Show Spoiler

OMFSM - there is nothing diabolic, the barbed wire is the standard border protection along the river preventing immigrants from crossing into the sacred land. The kid will not get entangled in it, either he is American and knows to return up the construction slipway, or he came over from the Mexican side and is a good swimmer.

Nothing to be seen --- move on ....

[RTH10260]

As we discussed before, now that I have seen a closeup view of the contraption: bring along a yard of strong rope, get to the barrier, throw half of the rope over the connecting rod between two floats, hold the ends together, take a deep breath and while holding on the rope to guide you, dive under the barrier, appear happily at the American side, make your way towards the river bank.

[Gregg]

Get 5 lbs of tannerite, swim out and affix to barrier. Go back to shore and "barrier go boom" tannerite/barrier. Swim happily to Texas.

[raison de arizona]

As we discussed before, now that I have seen a closeup view of the contraption: bring along a yard of strong rope, get to the barrier, throw half of the rope over the connecting rod between two floats, hold the ends together, take a deep breath and while holding on the rope to guide you, dive under the barrier, appear happily at the American side, make your way towards the river bank.

I don't see anything in the pictures, so perhaps they decided against it, but originally they said they were going to attach netting to the bottom of the, uh, floaty thingies to deter swimming underneath them. If one tried, they would presumably get entrapped in the netting and drown.

[neeneko]

Get 5 lbs of tannerite, swim out and affix to barrier. Go back to shore and "barrier go boom" tannerite/barrier. Swim happily to Texas.

Given the quality of the contractors you tend to see enriched by these red meat projects,.. all you really have to do is wait a few months and it will fall apart on its own. It only needs to last long enough for a photo op and lawsuits.

[raison de arizona]

[AndyinPA]

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politi ... 205076.php

WASHINGTON — Officers working for Gov. Greg Abbott’s border security initiative have been ordered to push small children and nursing babies back into the Rio Grande, and have been told not to give water to asylum seekers even in extreme heat, according to an email from a Department of Public Safety trooper who described the actions as “inhumane.”

The July 3 account, reviewed by Hearst Newspapers, discloses several previously unreported incidents the trooper witnessed in Eagle Pass, where the state of Texas has strung miles of razor wire and deployed a wall of buoys in the Rio Grande.

According to the email, a pregnant woman having a miscarriage was found late last month caught in the wire, doubled over in pain. A four-year-old girl passed out from heat exhaustion after she tried to go through it and was pushed back by Texas National Guard soldiers. A teenager broke his leg trying to navigate the water around the wire and had to be carried by his father.

The email, which the trooper sent to a superior, suggests that Texas has set “traps” of razor wire-wrapped barrels in parts of the river with high water and low visibility. And it says the wire has increased the risk of drownings by forcing migrants into deeper stretches of the river.

How do these people look at themselves in the mirror or sleep at night?

[raison de arizona]

If there is a hell, they will be burning in it. Inhuman MFers.

[Slim Cognito]

I don't to wait. I want them to burn now!

[neeneko]

How do these people look at themselves in the mirror or sleep at night?

Really shows the arbitrary power of ethical and philosophical systems. In their minds they are doing a good thing, and it is the migrants who are causing their own suffering.