E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
- raison de arizona
- Posts: 20219
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:21 am
- Location: Nothing, Arizona
- Occupation: bit twiddler
- Verified: ✔️ he/him/his
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Unsealed docs...
Kaplan tried to get the Tim Pool listener booted from the jury: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .162.0.pdf
Xbit A, Tim Pool's podcast topics: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .163.1.pdf
Defense response: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 67.0_3.pdf
Kaplan tried to get the Tim Pool listener booted from the jury: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .162.0.pdf
Xbit A, Tim Pool's podcast topics: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .163.1.pdf
Defense response: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 67.0_3.pdf
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Whether something can be relitigated that has already been litigated is really, really complicated. So, as bob would say, it depends.Ben-Prime wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 2:06 pmFollow-up to the above question: Since he a) is named in a second case by her, and b) is CONTINUING to call her a liar...Ben-Prime wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 4:25 pm Side question, though, for all the lawyers in the house:
A court of competent jurisdiction has now gone on record as finding Trump liable for defamation. This means a court has entered into the record that Trump has uttered publicly and 'loudly' a comment about someone that is, by legal definition, untrue. That means that a court has found Trump has lied.
Does this open any doors to be used elsewere in matters where Trump's probity or mendacity is at issue?
... can she use the liability verdict from the done trial as a weapon in the second trial or sue him a third time for the continuing defamation?Trump added that he would “probably” attend the trial. “It’s a disgrace that it’s allowed to happen,” he ranted. “False accusations against a rich guy, or in my case against a famous, rich and political person that’s leading the polls by 40 points, and I have to go back for a woman who made a false accusation about me.”
“I’m going to go back, and I’m going to confront her because look, this woman is a disgrace and it shouldn’t be allowed to happen in our country,” he continued. It’s totally false, it was fake, she’s a fake. She wrote in her book she’s a Democrat.”)
The basic legal concepts are "issue preclusion" and "claim preclusion."
Issue preclusion is where there is a valid and final judgment; the same issue is being brought in a new lawsuit; the issue is essential to the judgment; and the issue was actually litigated in the previous lawsuit. The issues must have actually been litigated, and the parties must be the same (although there are a number of exceptions that would bind non-parties to the final judgment in a prior lawsuit). My recollection of all of this from law school and studying for the various bar exams I've taken is that these issues are kind of squishy and fact-dependent.
Claim preclusion (sometimes called res judicata) means, essentially, that a losing plaintiff is stuck with the final judgment and can't re-sue. Also, if the plaintiff wins but doesn't like the damages, they can't go back and sue again trying to get more.
But that explanation is basic, basic, basic, and it's what I recall from the last time I took a bar exam, which was a very long time ago. I don't know what any of this means for the other lawsuit, especially since the United States is also a party.
As a criminal defense attorney, the only thing about preclusion that I recall from my own work is that once a defendant is found guilty in a criminal trial, he's not (generally) permitted to relitigate that in a civil trial because the issue has already been adjudicated in a system that imposes a higher burden of proof.
Maybe bob or chancery or sterngard or someone with civil law experience can provide a more detailed (and helpful) explanation.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Oof. Don't have energy right now to dive into issue & claim preclusion. Although I will say that, as best as I can recall, preclusion attaches immediately upon entry of a judgment, even if the judgment is on appeal. This can lead to awkward situations ...
However, the fact that the United States is a party won't matter for issue/claim preclusion.
Either the fact-finder will determine that Trump didn't act within the scope of his federal employment (a tricky, subtle issue, in which the various policy considerations are at war with each other), which means that the Westfall Act doesn't apply and the United States is not a proper party; or, if the fact-finder determines the other way, the Westfall Act _does apply_, the United States will be substituted in place of Trump, and the case will be dismissed on Sovereign Immunity grounds (because the United States has not waived Sovereign Immunity for defamation claims) without any consideration of issue and claim preclusion.
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
But if the fact finder decides that Trump wasn’t acting within the scope of his authority, than it’s over because of issue preclusion, no?
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Off the top of my head, pretty much, mostly, but maybe not everything.
Can't deny the sexual assault. And that's most of the ball game.
So long as the gist of the earlier defamatory comments is the same as the 2022 comments at issue in the recent trial, it would make sense that he couldn't relitigate the defamatory nature of the comments.
Willfulness and malice and maybe some other issues (I haven't read the jury form) might get a little tricky, especially if his deposition didn't cover the earlier statement (it might have; I just don't know). It might be a reach to apply jury findings as to Trump's state of mind in 2022 to his state of mind several years earlier, albeit saying similar things.
The thing is, issue and claim preclusion is typically used about the same thing, not as often for a very similar thing done at a different time under possibly different circumstances. I'm not saying that Carroll's lawyers couldn't make a compelling issue preclusion argument, and maybe even claim preclusion as well, just that you'd need to review the record carefully and do the arguments step by step to see how they work.
At a minimum you'd want to study the jury form, compare the two statements, and go over the deposition. I don't have access to the full deposition, and I'm not inclined to study the jury form or compare the statements (sorry).
Can't deny the sexual assault. And that's most of the ball game.
So long as the gist of the earlier defamatory comments is the same as the 2022 comments at issue in the recent trial, it would make sense that he couldn't relitigate the defamatory nature of the comments.
Willfulness and malice and maybe some other issues (I haven't read the jury form) might get a little tricky, especially if his deposition didn't cover the earlier statement (it might have; I just don't know). It might be a reach to apply jury findings as to Trump's state of mind in 2022 to his state of mind several years earlier, albeit saying similar things.
The thing is, issue and claim preclusion is typically used about the same thing, not as often for a very similar thing done at a different time under possibly different circumstances. I'm not saying that Carroll's lawyers couldn't make a compelling issue preclusion argument, and maybe even claim preclusion as well, just that you'd need to review the record carefully and do the arguments step by step to see how they work.
At a minimum you'd want to study the jury form, compare the two statements, and go over the deposition. I don't have access to the full deposition, and I'm not inclined to study the jury form or compare the statements (sorry).
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Also, damages. Different time frame, and do you have to calculate whether the earlier judgment fully compensated for some elements? Or are you allowed to pretend to the jury that there was no other damages award, and maybe the judge sorts it out post-trial. I have no idea.
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 327
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Apart from punitive damages, which are to make an example and serve as a deterrent, damages are either economic or noneconomic. Sometimes noneconomic damages can be very high, such as in the lawsuits against Alex Jones. In each case, however, these damages serve a compensatory purpose.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Actually, I think it would be a bad idea to pursue the original complaint. A whole lot of downsides for no significant upside. Crazy.
- Slim Cognito
- Posts: 7277
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:15 am
- Location: Too close to trump
- Occupation: Hats. I do hats.
- Verified: ✅
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Heckuva week for Hollywood writers to be on strike. I'm jonesing for some Colbert so bad right now.
x5
- Ben-Prime
- Posts: 3076
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:29 pm
- Location: Worldwide Availability
- Occupation: Managing People Who Manage Machines
- Verified: ✅MamaSaysI'mBonaFide
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Wow. Thank you for the very informative response chain on my question. Maybenaut, you're my hero of the day.
I always joke that I come here for the wit and snark, but stay for the knowledge and wisdom. It's not as pithy as 'Falsehoods Unchallenged Only Fester and Grow', but it's as true.
I always joke that I come here for the wit and snark, but stay for the knowledge and wisdom. It's not as pithy as 'Falsehoods Unchallenged Only Fester and Grow', but it's as true.
But the sunshine aye shall light the sky,
As round and round we run;
And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
And justice shall be done.
- Charles Mackay, "Eternal Justice"
As round and round we run;
And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
And justice shall be done.
- Charles Mackay, "Eternal Justice"
- shannon
- Posts: 216
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:46 pm
- Location: Mountlake Terrace, WA
- Occupation: Geology Graduate Student
- Verified: ✅
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Basically most MAGA women are stereotypical "Mean Girls" who are fine until the leopards start eating their very own personal face.Phoenix520 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 4:54 pmEnough women will believe it, though. There was a lot of “Boys will be boys, silly. He didn’t mean nuthin’ by it ” about the p**** tape from MAGA women at the time. After 5 years they no longer believe that. Doesn’t mean they won’t vote for him.
What has gotten into Republican women?
Mad Geoscientist GRADUATE STUDENT in Training
(she/her)
(she/her)
- raison de arizona
- Posts: 20219
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:21 am
- Location: Nothing, Arizona
- Occupation: bit twiddler
- Verified: ✔️ he/him/his
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Great article, thanks for sharing!patgund wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 3:32 pm Basically most MAGA women are stereotypical "Mean Girls" who are fine until the leopards start eating their very own personal face.
What has gotten into Republican women?
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
- Phoenix520
- Posts: 4151
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:20 pm
- Verified: ✅
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Yep which is why it was left to White Men to turn against that Blob of shit in 2020, and who got 0% of the credit.
Hic sunt dracones
- raison de arizona
- Posts: 20219
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:21 am
- Location: Nothing, Arizona
- Occupation: bit twiddler
- Verified: ✔️ he/him/his
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
White male support of tfg did drop (62% -> 58%), but it remained higher than white female support (55%) which actually rose (was 52-53%). So kinda.
https://www.essence.com/news/politics/5 ... tion-2020/
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
What's the Frequency, Kenneth?
- Tiredretiredlawyer
- Posts: 8056
- Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:07 pm
- Location: Rescue Pets Land
- Occupation: 21st Century Suffragist
- Verified: ✅🐴🐎🦄🌻5000 posts and counting
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
"Mickey Mouse and I grew up together." - Ruthie Tompson, Disney animation checker and scene planner and one of the first women to become a member of the International Photographers Union in 1952.
-
- Posts: 1059
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:12 am
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Tfg will have to pay the $5 million plus interest up front before he can appeal it, won’t he? His MAGAts better start checking the couch cushions for change.
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
I think he can ask for a stay, and pay some kind of surety bond to the court. I think.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
-
- Posts: 4418
- Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:50 pm
- Location: Down here!
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
A $5M surety bond is the only amount that would ensure the money is paid when his appeal fails.
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
FRCP 62 provides for an automatic stay of judgment enforcement if the judgment debtor provides an appeal bond or other security acceptable to the district court. In SDNY the done thing is to use the agency founded by the legendary Elmer Hyde, in which case approval is pro forma.
It would be _really_ interesting to find out what premium Trump will be charged, but we'll never know.
It would be _really_ interesting to find out what premium Trump will be charged, but we'll never know.
- Volkonski
- Posts: 12357
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:06 am
- Location: Texoma and North Fork of Long Island
- Occupation: Retired mechanical engineer
- Verified: ✅
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
New York Times
E. Jean Carroll is weighing whether to file a new defamation lawsuit against Donald Trump in the wake of his comments against her during a CNN town hall Wednesday night, her lawyer said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/11/nyre ... tw-nytimes
E. Jean Carroll is weighing whether to file a new defamation lawsuit against Donald Trump in the wake of his comments against her during a CNN town hall Wednesday night, her lawyer said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/11/nyre ... tw-nytimes
“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
- John Thomas8
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:42 pm
- Location: Central NC
- Occupation: Tech Support
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
KEEP POUNDING!!!!!!Volkonski wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:21 pm New York Times
E. Jean Carroll is weighing whether to file a new defamation lawsuit against Donald Trump in the wake of his comments against her during a CNN town hall Wednesday night, her lawyer said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/11/nyre ... tw-nytimes
Like she'll ever see a dime, but I like the thought.
- Phoenix520
- Posts: 4151
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:20 pm
- Verified: ✅
E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)
Will his disgusting performance last night be a factor in the appeal?