Bernie Sanders 2020

Jeffrey
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#176

Post by Jeffrey »

Why didn’t Sanders just get a small million dollar loan from his father instead of stealing electricity?

If you’re Hispanic or black or working class white, you probably know someone who’s done the same. If anything it makes him relatable.

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Suranis
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#177

Post by Suranis »

voxpopuluxe wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:53 pm
Orlylicious wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:32 pm
Why Vox? You hope he stole cable? Do you think all that Suranis just posted doesn't matter? It's really hard to understand where you are coming from but know you love America like we all do and am trying to figure out how you see Bernie being elected.
sure i hope he stole cable! look mike bloomberg's a wall street billionaire—christ knows how much he and his companies have stolen from people over the years. pete buttigieg consulted for a company he didn't even know (to give him the benefit of the doubt) was fixing bread prices for over a decade. donald trump has raped and pillaged his entire goddamned life. but shit an unemployed man stealing electricity for some period of his life. that's real fucking crime right there! which is why i say that if you're going to be a criminal, then you might as well have hbo
This is the Logical fallacy of focusing on the least objectionable thing on a list, attacking it and refusing to talk about anything else, and pretending that means everything else is just as silly. Which it isnt.

AND then bringing in a list of what other people have done which is all horrible compared with the one thing you want to talk about.

Well I'm sorry, even if it WAS the only thing on the list, there was only one minor thing they had on Hillary as well AND the GOP as a whole had done worse and they made it into BUTTER EMAILS!! and the fact that there were really complicated reasons why that was ok didn't matter a damn.

The fact is Sanders is vulnerable, and right now the GOP are actively helping him. They have to have a reason for that. And if you cant bear the fact that the reason could very well be that they have 200 tons of shit ready to dump on his ass the second he gets the nom, then you have a real problem.
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NotaPerson
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#178

Post by NotaPerson »

We all know the Republicans are going to do everything they can to tear down the Democratic nominee. It's going to be absolutely awful, no matter who it is.

Even if Biden gets the nomination, they'll scream he's a radical socialist. Have you not heard Trump refer to the Dems in Congress in this way? Yeah, apparently Nancy Pelosi is a radical socialist.

If Pete gets the nomination, can you imagine the wonderful time the Trump-loving Evangelicals will have with his sexual orientation? After all, how can parents be expected to explain a U.S. president being married to a man? The horrors! Pete will be portrayed as Lucifer, just as Obama was.

Plus, there will be tons of disinformation thrown around, perhaps courtesy of our good friends, the Russians. And spread by social media.

But ya know what? I'm not all that concerned by any of that. Because all the opposition research and disinformation in the world doesn't change the fact that Trump has been an utterly awful president, and MOST of the American people recognize this. No one is going to give a fuck about Bernie's erotic fiction writing (or whatever it was) from decades ago. What most of us anywhere left of center care about in this election is getting Trump out of office. Period.

We're pissed off and that's good. Because it means we'll be motivated to vote. At least that's what I tell myself to keep myself from going nuts.

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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#179

Post by Clairez »

NotaPerson wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:54 pm
We all know the Republicans are going to do everything they can to tear down the Democratic nominee. It's going to be absolutely awful, no matter who it is.

Even if Biden gets the nomination, they'll scream he's a radical socialist. Have you not heard Trump refer to the Dems in Congress in this way? Yeah, apparently Nancy Pelosi is a radical socialist.

If Pete gets the nomination, can you imagine the wonderful time the Trump-loving Evangelicals will have with his sexual orientation? After all, how can parents be expected to explain a U.S. president being married to a man? The horrors! Pete will be portrayed as Lucifer, just as Obama was.

Plus, there will be tons of disinformation thrown around, perhaps courtesy of our good friends, the Russians. And spread by social media.

But ya know what? I'm not all that concerned by any of that. Because all the opposition research and disinformation in the world doesn't change the fact that Trump has been an utterly awful president, and MOST of the American people recognize this. No one is going to give a fuck about Bernie's erotic fiction writing (or whatever it was) from decades ago. What most of us anywhere left of center care about in this election is getting Trump out of office. Period.

We're pissed off and that's good. Because it means we'll be motivated to vote. At least that's what I tell myself to keep myself from going nuts.

Sekrit Stuffs!
I confess that for a brief time in college my roommate and I stole cable. :-D
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Correct! None of the Democratic candidates have anywhere near the amount of crap against them as Donald Trump. No matter who we put up they will put out lies and misinformation about them.

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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#180

Post by Addie »

Politico: De Blasio to endorse Bernie Sanders

The New York City mayor’s move is also about advancing his own political interests.
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#181

Post by TexasFilly »

I love the poorly educated!!!

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voxpopuluxe
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#182

Post by voxpopuluxe »

TexasFilly wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:09 am
that's part of a 52 minute press conference*—press conferences! who remembers those!—that also includes sanders advocating for soviet dissidents, acknowledging the undemocratic nature of the soviet union, talking about how russians admire america's openness and superior technology, praising glasnost and perestroika, criticising the state of soviet health care and medical technology, deploring the terrible state of soviet housing, etc. there's no way that anyone could watch this and conclude that sanders belived that the soviet government was anything to aspire to or that he held views that were very different from any other nation-reading left-liberal of 1988.

imagine calling yourself a liberal and applauding a US general's efforts to red-bait a senator over views he did not hold about a government that no longer exists. no one under 30 even remembers the soviet union, but that won't stop the right from trying to scare the boomers with its specter or the center from happily aiding them

*
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#183

Post by TexasFilly »

I would NOT consider Barry McCaffrey part of the "right" and I posted this because it's this kind of stuff that will be flooding the airwaves.

If you have to rely on a paragraph of explanations, that's a problem.
I love the poorly educated!!!

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#184

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

TexasFilly wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:26 pm
I would NOT consider Barry McCaffrey part of the "right" and I posted this because it's this kind of stuff that will be flooding the airwaves.

If you have to rely on a paragraph of explanations, that's a problem.
Or 52 minutes of video.

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voxpopuluxe
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#185

Post by voxpopuluxe »

TexasFilly wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:26 pm
I would NOT consider Barry McCaffrey part of the "right" and I posted this because it's this kind of stuff that will be flooding the airwaves.
check out barry mcaffrey, avowed foe of "socialism," a man who received his education at phillips academy followed by a four-year publicly-funded west point education and who owes his career to the world's largest publicly-supported institution. bet he's rarely ever gone without health care.

and besides a loathing of "socialism," i fail to see the purpose in sharing a deceptively cut clip designed to inaccurately vilify a candidate just because it's the kind of propaganda that trump campaign will inevitably produce themselves. it is an illustration of my point, tho—watch—every time trump rings his little bell that says "socialism," centrists are going to salivate to do his work for him
If you have to rely on a paragraph of explanations, that's a problem.
i honestly don't even understand this objection—you'd prefer candidates to speak in glib, meaningless soundbites?
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p0rtia
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#186

Post by p0rtia »

That's not a loathing of socialism; that's a sick fear of democratic socialism because it means that the oligarchs lose some of their power and utterly useless wealth.
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#187

Post by TexasFilly »

Well, you might not like this but there's many people in this country who despise Trump but simply aren't that far left. Regardless of where they went to school, what their profession is/was. That's an inconvenient fact for Bernie supporters. But hey, what do I know? I only live in a swing state for half the year.
I love the poorly educated!!!

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Addie
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#188

Post by Addie »

I just think we're fucked all around. :blackeye:
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RVInit
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#189

Post by RVInit »

Addie wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:19 pm
I just think we're fucked all around. :blackeye:
:yeah:
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p0rtia
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#190

Post by p0rtia »

TexasFilly wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:43 pm
Well, you might not like this but there's many people in this country who despise Trump but simply aren't that far left. Regardless of where they went to school, what their profession is/was. That's an inconvenient fact for Bernie supporters. But hey, what do I know? I only live in a swing state for half the year.
Of course. I remain interested in distinguishing between those voters who have some idea of what goes on in Republican politics (now or then) and largely approve, and those have been swept up in the massive thirty-year, ongoing anti-Dem propaganda/Fox News disinformation campaign, and have no clue.

I find most voter analysis misleading if it does not take into account the gazillions of dollars and massive efforts of folks with ultra right-wing agendas that are in play -- at least in terms of discussions on how voters are swayed and appealed to.

I remember listening to Bill O'Reilly twenty years ago explaining that the Dems were on the appealing side of all the arguments, so it was necessary to attack the messenger in order to give "the folks" the hard-nosed austerity and limited services that they really needed. Good Times /not.
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voxpopuluxe
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#191

Post by voxpopuluxe »

TexasFilly wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:43 pm
Well, you might not like this but there's many people in this country who despise Trump but simply aren't that far left. Regardless of where they went to school, what their profession is/was. That's an inconvenient fact for Bernie supporters. But hey, what do I know? I only live in a swing state for half the year.
when people call sanders—a man who's current vision of society seems to lie somewhere around FDR liberalism—(he called for the nationalization of industries in the early '70s but if he still thinks that's a desirable or practical goal today then he's been very quiet about it for decades)—"far left," i conclude that they've never encountered any actual socialists, communists, ancoms, stalinists, or maoists. only in a country where most respectable political opinion runs from discreet fascism to DLC centrist liberalism could sanders be "far left."

but you're absolutely right that many americans appear to be more insulted by trump's buffoonery, grotesqueness, and defiant abuse of protocols than anything else. bloomberg demonstrates our appetite—or the appetite of our elites—for a kinder, gentler trump even after four years of the OG. and it is a troubling proposition for any one who wants to make things better and you're right that i don't like it. so, yeah, i guess you pretty much nailed it on all counts
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Mikedunford
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#192

Post by Mikedunford »

I think Bernie - or any of the other candidates - can win. Unless we decide not to let them.
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p0rtia
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#193

Post by p0rtia »

Agree with both the above posts.

Not sure that Sanders is _currently_ as far left as FDR. May be closer to Nixon, actually. Somewhere in there.

The rest is spin (to paraphrase Shakespeare).
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Addie
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#194

Post by Addie »

I believe Bernie can beat Trump. I'm not sure if Bernie can beat Bloomberg to the nomination. I don't know if Bloomberg can beat Trump. Fucked up all around.
Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:53 am
I think Bernie - or any of the other candidates - can win. Unless we decide not to let them.
Don't do stupid shit. -Barack Obama

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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#195

Post by ZekeB »

I'm the opposite. Even though many know that Bernie is making promises that he'll never be able to keep, I don't think he stands a chance against Trump. Bloomberg has a lot of baggage, but compare it to Trump's baggage. Apparently the voters don't weigh that like they use to. Twenty years ago Trump's baggage wouldn't have gotten him through the primaries.
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p0rtia
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#196

Post by p0rtia »

ZekeB wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:52 pm
I'm the opposite. Even though many know that Bernie is making promises that he'll never be able to keep, I don't think he stands a chance against Trump. Bloomberg has a lot of baggage, but compare it to Trump's baggage. Apparently the voters don't weigh that like they use to. Twenty years ago Trump's baggage wouldn't have gotten him through the primaries.
Do you accept that every candidate is making promises they will never be able to keep?
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#197

Post by ZekeB »

p0rtia wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:58 pm
ZekeB wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:52 pm
I'm the opposite. Even though many know that Bernie is making promises that he'll never be able to keep, I don't think he stands a chance against Trump. Bloomberg has a lot of baggage, but compare it to Trump's baggage. Apparently the voters don't weigh that like they use to. Twenty years ago Trump's baggage wouldn't have gotten him through the primaries.
Do you accept that every candidate is making promises they will never be able to keep?
Point taken, but Bernie’s entire campaign is built on promises that he will not be able to keep. Furthermore, his promises are too extreme for the middle of the road voter.
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p0rtia
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#198

Post by p0rtia »

ZekeB wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:27 pm
p0rtia wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:58 pm
ZekeB wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:52 pm
I'm the opposite. Even though many know that Bernie is making promises that he'll never be able to keep, I don't think he stands a chance against Trump. Bloomberg has a lot of baggage, but compare it to Trump's baggage. Apparently the voters don't weigh that like they use to. Twenty years ago Trump's baggage wouldn't have gotten him through the primaries.
Do you accept that every candidate is making promises they will never be able to keep?
Point taken, but Bernie’s entire campaign is built on promises that he will not be able to keep. Furthermore, his promises are too extreme for the middle of the road voter.
It wasn't me making a point, actually. I truly wanted to know. I always read your posts with interest, because they represent a point of view I hear often, and I keep trying to figure out what positions like this are based on. Taking advantage of the generosity of the Fogbow member so learn, you know. :bighug:

As I've said previously when you have made categorical statements about Bernie not being about to win, or Bernie not being able to keep his promises, I don't see what you're basing these statements on. I can say "X can't win" and "X will never be able to keep a single promise" about any of the Democratic candidates. It sounds to me that this is what you fear of what might happen (understandably), rather than what you have evidence for.

Your "Furthermore" is more in line, though I think you mean "positions" rather than "promises." I hear many people hear saying that self-identified* moderates will not vote for self-identified progressives. No one counts in the backlash from Dear Leader. I keep pointing to current polls that show Bernie beating Dear Leader. So it seems to me that what folks are afraid of is what Dear Leader and the propaganda machine are going to do, rather than what Bernie is doing. And the belief that he will do it more effectively against Bernie than against anybody else (except the vile Bloomberg, since we already know how vile he is?)?

Bernie's positions, stated and reported honestly, are not particularly radical. Universal health care (duh), fighting back against corporatocracy, (duh), minimum wage, affordable education, LGBTQ rights, minority rights, an end to the culture of violence. ??? Leaders set goals that we aspire to. I blame the corporate media for incredible shallowness in focusing on idiot "How's he gonna pay for THAT?" questions, when we are a gazillion dollars in debt under Dear Leader. I don't blame Bernie for trying to establish principles. I like that. Which is why he's my number two choice after Warren. She does it even better.

*I say self-identified because historically, the self-identified moderates are way to the right of center, and the self-identified progressives are pretty much moderates.
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ZekeB
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#199

Post by ZekeB »

I’m not saying that Bernie won’t keep his promises, I’m saying that Bernie will not be able to keep his promises. I’m being a realist, not an idealist. The Republicans hold the senate and I’m not seeing any indication that this will change. In fact the Republicans may pick up a seat via Alabama. Meanwhile, Bernie isn’t endearing himself to the center. I’m not anti Bernie, I’m anti Trump. I’ll vote for any Dem who runs against Trump. (Please dawg, don’t make me vote for Tulsi). I want a candidate who stands the best chance of booting Trump out of office. I don’t feel that Bernie is the person to do it.
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Jeffrey
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Re: Bernie Sanders 2020

#200

Post by Jeffrey »

I don’t think any Bernie supporter thinks he will turn the United States into a Nordic socialist state in 4 years.

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