The Weight-Management Thread

[Dan1100]

Dan1100, I’m a klutz at the gym. I’ve fallen off the treadmill. Twice. It’s my own personal nightmare; you obviously have mastered it.

You jinxed me. The electricity flashed on and off tonight and I got pitched ass over teakettle over a chair and on to the floor.



I am fine though. It is better to be sturdy than to be good.

[Lani]

A Potential Hidden Factor in Why People Have So Much Trouble Losing Weight
https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/594073/

In 1992, Schmidt was studying the complications of diabetes when she and her team made what she calls a startling discovery: Humans and other mammals have a protein on the surface of fat cells called the receptor for advanced glycation end products, or RAGE, which appeared to play previously unobserved roles in a host of the body’s metabolic and inflammatory responses. Eventually, it became clear that the protein was also present in nondiabetic tissues, which suggested RAGE had consequences far beyond just a few chronic diseases.

Schmidt’s latest study found an enormous difference in weight gain between two test groups: conventional mice and mice whose RAGE pathway had been deleted. The latter group gained 70 percent less weight than conventional mice, had lower glucose levels, and expended more energy while eating the same high-fat diet and doing the same amount of physical activity. The conventional mice’s bodies hit the metabolism brakes, making it impossible for them to burn as much energy as their RAGE-deleted counterparts.

Schmidt posits that RAGE might have evolved to protect mammals, including humans, when another meal might not be predictably forthcoming and the body’s ability to retain its resources would be a boon. “However, in time of plenty, when there is no shortage of nutrients, the receptor is still present and is able to continue to exert that unfortunate role of hoarding the energy and not allowing it to be expended,” she explains. It makes sense that the body would conserve resources when it detects a potential need, but it feels particularly cruel, at least in modern times, that humans might experience the same metabolic slowdown after a hearty meal.

With the qualification that the study’s findings are in mice and its exact translation to humans is not yet known, Utpal Pajvani, a professor and an endocrinologist at Columbia University, expressed similar optimism about the new RAGE findings. “These data are quite interesting, and are consistent with the hypothesis that the obesity epidemic is in part due to evolutionary pressures to prevent starvation in stress,” he told me via email. “The current study adds to [Schmidt’s] impressive body of work, and suggest that methods to reduce RAGE signaling in fat may have benefit in people.”

[DrIrvingFinegarten]

Three different times in my adult life I've lost at least 40 pounds. The methods I used didn't seem too extreme at the time, a balanced diet, nothing crazy, and exercise (though in retrospect, the 90 minutes of cardio I did most days of the week when I was 23, a year out of college and losing my pizza and beer weight was not sustainable).

Each time, I thought I could keep it off. Each time, it came back on, gradually at first, then suddenly. The bad habits came back without even knowing it. Cheat days took on a life of their own.

Now, it seems like I can eat one good meal a day, but tend to sabotage myself on others. I lift weights maybe 2-3 times a week, mostly big moves, squats, presses, deadlifts, and some walking. I've lost 10 pounds in the last three months just by cutting back on between-meal snacks though.

I'm working on trying to do better at the other meals, but I work a third-shift job, which makes sleep tough, and emotionally it's been a tough year. Within 2 1/2 months between February and mid-April, I lost my job of 19 years and my mom died of cancer and for various reasons, I'm facing a very uncertain future. I'm amazed I haven't been stress eating more.

[Danraft]

Losing your circadian rhythm while fasting would be more likely depending on many factors including the amount of light hitting your retina during a small window in the morning. I would bet, that when you lose the circadian and are dysfunctional, that your time precesses, that is, the non-circadian clock is on a 21 hour cycle, so each day you would be 3 hours earlier and in a week, you would be back to normal time.

but, more important is if you are a Per3 variant of circadian gene sets. This means that the "Diet" reset, or mealtimes, is the only functioning reset. So, yes, losing time is pretty likely if that is the case. I was just telling Slarti, who, like me, is a night owl and odd hour person, that he needs to stay strict to the rules and force the system to reset.

The dysfunctional circadian is hugely destructive. Entire supergene sets are supposed to work together with synchronized loops unfolding in the same 3D space and the 4th dimension matters. If they are unwound together, then the trans chromosomal interactions fall apart. This is not a small thing.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07957-4
That's a decent overview of Per3. there are numerous personality traits associated with it, as well. But, those are chicken-and-egg type things... Do you become a night owl and cut off from normal society and then develop these traits, or, are they from the same causative root?

I was actually seeking out this thread because I just came across a "leptin" link that is intriguing. What we are discovering is that associated gene sets are far more inclusive than previously considered. I would say that the epigenome is finally putting meaning to how the system operates. Realize that we didn't really understand any of this.. only the basics of transcription, not the vast system integrating what gets transcribed when, how it is suppressed or modified, or what sets these off. I had been on the trail of particular hypoxia triggers and ended up in the midst of the most fascinating subject.

On the leptin subject, I found this link following a viral protein's effect on the temporoammonic calcium modified synapse integration center that is involved in other work I am doing of fibromyalgia and schizophrenia. The leptin article is here, there are bunch of these coming in the next year or so. (Most are "embargoed" right now.. and can't be read until the middle of next year-- usually, I can find back door access but not on these).
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0165891

Re: Why isn't the keto diet recommended more? I'm not a nutritionist and don't know for sure what the emphasis is in today's curriculum, but, I took my courses and I read current research. These are my contemplative thoughts, and, while I have seen some supported in the literature, it wasn't my focus and I have a full plate.

I find it potentially dangerous. As others have mentioned, evolution is a good basis to consider implications ( it is my goto method).
It is "hacking the system" that is meant to respond to stressful situations and maintain balance in the organism. The very old roots of these "stress response" still exist and many "extra" ones are built on the same motifs. The response in the archaic system was dramatic-- a change in proteins to a more heat-stable version, or to shut down, or to do any number of cataclysmic metabolic responses...

Which goes back to Dan-ism "A diseased/stressed system does not respond the same way as a healthy system." The ancient system has roots in nutrient sensing (TOR) and to keep the system in a state of "special" nutrient needs is foolhardy. Unfortunately, and this is my guess, the stress-response systems only "feels" evolutionary selective pressure at rare times and may be more prone to accumulated errors. Being in this Keto state is hard on the organism. It uses a less efficient pathway, that by its very nature, is going to produce more reactive oxygen that causes more mutations.

I mentioned by-products-- burning carbohydrates, as the name suggests, produces CO2 and H20 and energy. That is pure. There isn't any dark smoke coming from that chimney ( if I may use that analogy) whereas burning proteins and fat for energy is akin to burning carpet in the wood stove. Yes, it burns, but the smoke is black and sooty with various byproducts that can clog up the works. The body has systems that counter this, in the liver and kidneys especially, but it is hard work and requires even more calories and invokes even more problems.

Autophagy, in the keto circles, means fasting until the cells have a product shortage and start processing all the items marked for recycling and those items in the recycling centers ( lysosomes) and this can be healthy. It also causes the number of mitochondria per cell to be decreased-- benefits depend on the specific situation. But, the act of fasting also activates systems that are less ideal. And, if done too often, can be detrimental. (In some types of cancer, say the estrogen sensitive ones, it is important to note that even though a receptor has been moved from the cell membrane, that doesn't mean it stops signaling. If, for instance, the sorting mechanisms are not functioning (common in disease state), it may not make it to the lysosome where it would be broken down( and it just keeps signaling). This simple error is made by almost every cell modeling program I have examined.)

Mitochondria are exposed to more reactants and have high mutation rates because of this. There error correcting mechanisms are only so-so and. a primary means of checking (and eliminating bad copies), is for two mitochondria to fuse and the bad copy is eliminated. Great. But, if done too often, this is also a problem. How often is too often? Dunno. The lifespan of mitochondria is about 30 days.
To be honest, I have stayed away from Keto as a research topic because I have close friends who are strong advocates, and I just don't want the friction.

I will say, that there are better hacks. Inducing autophagy or mitochondrial fusion doesn't require fasting. And, much of the "benefits" of keto could be obtained by using a different stimulus which is the presence of specific types of digested fiber in the colon.

Then there is the "lack of nutrients". So many plant products offer incredible health benefits and they are not present.
"Sustainable"? Yes, if the individual is able to afford to eat higher priced food. And, from a global environment viewpoint, it would lead to massive food shortages.

So, in my view, without bothering to confirm hunches or debunk myself or seek true expertise, there are easier and less stressful ways to cause many of the metabolic benefits. And, a LOT of studies would need to be made into all the "off the cuff" concerns and more. It's like doctors saying supplements are a waste of money ( because there is a dearth of randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind studies) and then advocating the Mediterranean diet( for which, by definition, one can't have placebos) which has few solid studies supporting it that would not be accomplished by large amounts of just the olive oil. Olive oil is pretty damn good and, BTW activates the endocannabinoid system (as does canola).

And, it's possible that the largest "causative" element is a shift in the mix of gut bacteria caused by a change in diet. Just eliminating sugar is tremendous, for example. And, oils and fats have a far better glycemic index than simple sugars, which means spikes and valleys in glucose are less strong. This area is, and always has been, controversial. C'est la vie.

Answering here, since we have the nice new thread.

In the weight-management community, the fact that proteins burn extra carbs is considered a plus. But can you tell me what these by-products of which you speak are? Feel free to use chemical nomenclature. And why would this would be a problem with normally functioning kidneys and liver? And are you Vegan or vegetarian?

Many of your discussion points (fast-mimicking, lack of nutrients, electrolytes, the benefits of olive oil). I am myself currently trying to get a handle on the cortisol issue; I short-term fast a LOT, and find that my sleep is disrupted to greater degrees the longer I fast (fourth night I'm up at 2 or 3 and have a hella hard time getting back to sleep). Which is one of the reasons I'm switching to 44 hour fasts and the occasional OMAD (one meal a day). I have breakfast once in a blue moon.

I'm also slowly moving toward having my supper earlier in the day -- finished by 5, or by 4, or, today, 2. I've read some interesting literature (cohort study results) regarding health concerns that show unpleasant disease recurrence for those who eat in the evening compared to those who don't. Of course, if I don't eat at all, that solves that problem.

It's a puzzle! And thanks for your ongoing input, Danraft. This is the stuff I'm currently interested in. <3

[p0rtia]

Losing your circadian rhythm while fasting would be more likely depending on many factors including the amount of light hitting your retina during a small window in the morning. I would bet, that when you lose the circadian and are dysfunctional, that your time precesses, that is, the non-circadian clock is on a 21 hour cycle, so each day you would be 3 hours earlier and in a week, you would be back to normal time.

Anecdotal, of course, but I have not found that my circadian rhythms, as I understand them, have not changed. I am still pretty much a morning person, I start waking up around 5, and then doze or read for an hour, then get up. I maintain good energy throughout the day. My witching hour (the time of day when I inevitably become hungry) is 4 PM. I like to head to bed around 9 PM, go to sleep around 10. The wakefulness during nights after a day of fasting is a well documented side effect and does not make me sleep longer in the morning or make me tired during the day (indeed, if anything, it makes me get up earlier). If I'm up past midnight I will sleep till seven, but that's about it. I do not have any experience of my daily rhythm seeming to switch to a 21 hour cycle.

That said, I had my morning blood cortisol tested, and fasted for three days before hand to give it a good chance to rise, but it was normal (10 mcg/dL). But neither did I experience any wakefulness during those three nights.

but, more important is if you are a Per3 variant of circadian gene sets. This means that the "Diet" reset, or mealtimes, is the only functioning reset. So, yes, losing time is pretty likely if that is the case. I was just telling Slarti, who, like me, is a night owl and odd hour person, that he needs to stay strict to the rules and force the system to reset.

The dysfunctional circadian is hugely destructive. Entire supergene sets are supposed to work together with synchronized loops unfolding in the same 3D space and the 4th dimension matters. If they are unwound together, then the trans chromosomal interactions fall apart. This is not a small thing.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07957-4

Interesting article, but it seems to focus on chronotype (who knew?) and mood. I have a couple of relatives who suffer greatly from inability to sleep at night, and I have forwarded the article to them.

Anyway, I Googled PER3 and fasting, and got some incredible hits. Thanks for pointing me in this direction! Got some interesting info on PER3 being correlated with FBG (though my FBG is never low, fasting or not).

This study identifying gene expression in response to fasting was interesting: https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/a ... 018-4997-y

They mention this in the background: "Surprisingly, time restricted produces strikingly similar results to calorie-restricted diet [3], despite only restricting the period when meals are consumed and not calorie intake. The reasons behind this have just started to be elucidated, but may involve the circadian rhythm"

And this in the results: "This study robustly implicates circadian rhythm genes in the response to hours fasting independently of time of day, seasonality, age and BMI. "

I was actually seeking out this thread because I just came across a "leptin" link that is intriguing.

On the leptin subject, I found this link following a viral protein's effect on the temporoammonic calcium modified synapse integration center that is involved in other work I am doing of fibromyalgia and schizophrenia. The leptin article is here, there are bunch of these coming in the next year or so. (Most are "embargoed" right now.. and can't be read until the middle of next year-- usually, I can find back door access but not on these).

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0165891

It that the correct article? Doesn't mention leptin.

BTW, in addition to the cortisol, the rest of my labs were insanely good. Definitely low sample size, but the only difference from the last set is me doing IF/short-term fasting and losing a modest 12 lb. Moreover, I feel insanely good.

Yes, I have read the material on the double-edged sword of autophagy and mitochondria, and it concerns me, but it is, frankly, too abstract at this point to make me shift my current weight management direction.

Another point, when I talk about a weight-management strategy being sustainable, I am usually specifically talking about whether or not a protocol leads to increasing hunger, which is the primary negative in straight forward calorie restriction. Lack of variety/sense of deprivation is a distant second. Cost of nutrient-rich foods compared to carbohydrates is no doubt a concern in some places, but in the States, at least, you have to take into account the fact that if one is overeating every day on simple carbs and being hungry all the time, it costs as much or more than if one is eating high fat, moderate protein every other day, and experiencing satiety.

[p0rtia]

Doing a five or six day zero-calorie fast this week as a corrective. I'm in hour 64 and enjoying it immensely. I know that sounds weird, but fasting loves me so I love it back.

Maintenance is a funny thing. I used to think the goal of maintenance was to stay at a certain scale weight day in and day out. Y'know, without gaining scale weight.

My scale weight fluctuates a lot. So my goal in maintenance is to stay within a range of 10 lb. or so. Actually I don't weigh; I measure with clothes.

The last month consisted of ten days in Nova Scotia followed by three weeks of high stress (death in family, loss of connectivity, caught a wicked cold). Lot's of overeating in those four weeks, and my clothes showed where it was going.

So I was looking for a clear stretch of days post-cold when I knew I would have enough focus to have a nice fast. This should get me back into my desired range (even after three days, the clothes are already MUCH happier). After that, I plan to do a month of less strenuous weight-loss mode to get me back to the bottom of my range.

[Foggy]

I'm down from 235 to 192 now.

'Course, my tan weighs a couple of pounds, so it's really 190.

[p0rtia]

I love to read your posts about your ongoing health improvements, including the weight loss. Though I am jealous of your BP. I was hoping mine would come down with my weight loss, but alas, no. I take a couple of meds for that.

My current weight-management protocols have shifted to encompass my general health. I do moderate low carb, so that has led me to increasing my leafy greens and reducing dairy. And to work on ending my artificial sweeteners crutch. Still working on that one.

[Flatpointhigh]

Currently doing the Atkins 20 - 22g of carbs/day is really tough and I go over that, but I'm down 4 lbs. no complaints. I should be at 125 by the end of the year if I have a 12lb/month weight loss. (I'm currently @ 162)

[Orlylicious]

My Dad at 85 still swears by Atkins, we love bread and pasta so when he goes too far it's cottage cheese and lean meat.

Personal Trainer Food is still my best friend, food is delicious and in microwave steamer bags so it couldn't be easier, grab a protein and veggie and in 4 minutes we're eating.

Their system doesn't allow beans but so many things are unlimited, all meats, veggies, eggs, even 6 ounces of hard cheese (like cheddar, that's a lot of cheese).

They agree about fasting, I'm like you p0rtia, never really ate till afternoon, now it's trendy Why eat if you're not hungry?

Guidelines are at https://www.personaltrainerfood.com/guidelines/

Fasting.JPG

Dos and Donts.JPG

Donts.JPG

We also find watching a few episodes of "My 600lb Life" does the trick, often don't eat for a day after seeing that show.

[Dolly]

Off Topic

I'm working on trying to do better at the other meals, but I work a third-shift job, which makes sleep tough, and emotionally it's been a tough year. Within 2 1/2 months between February and mid-April, I lost my job of 19 years and my mom died of cancer and for various reasons, I'm facing a very uncertain future. I'm amazed I haven't been stress eating more.

I am just now catching up on this thread and read your post.

Sorry about the loss of your Mom. I hope other things are working out for you.

[DrIrvingFinegarten]

Off Topic

I'm working on trying to do better at the other meals, but I work a third-shift job, which makes sleep tough, and emotionally it's been a tough year. Within 2 1/2 months between February and mid-April, I lost my job of 19 years and my mom died of cancer and for various reasons, I'm facing a very uncertain future. I'm amazed I haven't been stress eating more.

I am just now catching up on this thread and read your post.

Sorry about the loss of your Mom. I hope other things are working out for you.

Thank you. It's a struggle. I'm working an overnight job and I'm not very good at it. I'm trying to find a job that uses the skills I have and not having any luck. I'm seeing a psychiatrist and trying to get into a grief support group.

[p0rtia]

Currently doing the Atkins 20 - 22g of carbs/day is really tough and I go over that, but I'm down 4 lbs. no complaints. I should be at 125 by the end of the year if I have a 12lb/month weight loss. (I'm currently @ 162)

Sweet. I wish you lots of luck. And lots of focus!

Love me some Atkins. The OG LC weight-loss plan. Was very successful with it for weight lose once upon a time, though I couldn't sustain the very low carb after a few years. Let me know if you need a weigh-loss buddy. I'm always looking for support.

I'm in hour 83 of my fast. Sucking salt

[Flatpointhigh]

Currently doing the Atkins 20 - 22g of carbs/day is really tough and I go over that, but I'm down 4 lbs. no complaints. I should be at 125 by the end of the year if I have a 12lb/month weight loss. (I'm currently @ 162)

Sweet. I wish you lots of luck. And lots of focus!

Love me some Atkins. The OG LC weight-loss plan. Was very successful with it for weight lose once upon a time, though I couldn't sustain the very low carb after a few years. Let me know if you need a weigh-loss buddy. I'm always looking for support.

I'm in hour 83 of my fast. Sucking salt

Thanks. the 20g is the starting point. I'll be able to add carbs back, but never to the extent I used to consume. Let's do this!!!!

[p0rtia]

[Lani]

Atkins is my go-to diet if I gain too much. The protocol has changed from 20 grams the first week or more to 40 grams as the starting goal. Either way, usually about a week into very low carbs, I have a huge sugar feast day. Sigh. But that's ok, because I go back to lower carbs and over a short period of time I don't crave them as much. I also found some ice cream brands that offer their products with 1/3rd the usual sugar, tastes great and has little impact on the Atkins diet. I also like stevia and splenda products to deal with sugar cravings during the early stage of the diet.

Mostly now I just limit starchy and sugary foods and maintain weight well (except maybe over the winter holidays). I do eat eggs, shrimp, sushi, chicken and to a lesser extent red meat. My cholesterol ratio is always around 2.5, so no problem there!

I've been reading up on the MIND diet and increasing some food and reducing others. The MIND diet takes the best aspects of the Mediterranean and DASH diets. Not a lot of changes involved.

[p0rtia]

Regarding low-carb ice-cream -- I'm a big fan of Enlightened.

I stay moderate carb most of the time (50 to 70 net carbs), whether in maintenance or weight-loss mode. I am never hungry (after 20 or so years of being hungry all the time). I schedule carb weekends every couple of months. August was rough, and I went off the rails for three weeks--an extended and unscheduled carb holiday!

[Sluffy1]

Why people gain weight as they get older

Summary:
Many people struggle to keep their weight in check as they get older. Now new research has uncovered why that is: lipid turnover in the fat tissue decreases during aging and makes it easier to gain weight.
The scientists studied the fat cells in 54 men and women over an average period of 13 years. In that time, all subjects, regardless of whether they gained or lost weight, showed decreases in lipid turnover in the fat tissue, that is the rate at which lipid (or fat) in the fat cells is removed and stored.
Those who didn't compensate for that by eating less calories gained weight by an average of 20 percent
Prior studies have shown that one way to speed up the lipid turnover in the fat tissue is to exercise more.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 193211.htm
Eat less and exersize more... calories in/calories out... seems so simple.

[p0rtia]

Why people gain weight as they get older

Summary:
Many people struggle to keep their weight in check as they get older. Now new research has uncovered why that is: lipid turnover in the fat tissue decreases during aging and makes it easier to gain weight.
The scientists studied the fat cells in 54 men and women over an average period of 13 years. In that time, all subjects, regardless of whether they gained or lost weight, showed decreases in lipid turnover in the fat tissue, that is the rate at which lipid (or fat) in the fat cells is removed and stored.
Those who didn't compensate for that by eating less calories gained weight by an average of 20 percent
Prior studies have shown that one way to speed up the lipid turnover in the fat tissue is to exercise more.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 193211.htm
Eat less and exersize more... calories in/calories out... seems so simple.

Cool, thanks!

The reference to exercise is particularly interesting (to me, at least). There is a great myth in weight-loss management that the calories you are said to burn when exercises translate immediately into lipid-mass loss. Not remotely true, not to mention that your body gets more efficient the more you exercise (or if you reduce calories). But my experience has been that exercise in nonetheless key to both health (duh) and weight-loss; my sense has been that it sort of activates the weight-loss engine. This theory fits in with my anecdotal experience, so I love it!

[Slim Cognito]

[DrIrvingFinegarten]

This guy used to work at my gym. What he's doing has been done but it's still worth your while to watch it.

[Panch Villlain]

You surely follow strange people.

[DrIrvingFinegarten]

You surely follow strange people.

So what's strange about this?

[Orlylicious]

SAVEBIG45 -- PTF is having a 45% off sale until 3:30pm CST 11/14, it's a great deal. Promo Code is SAVEBIG45 or BIG45 works too I think (better than what's on the site). You can order up to a month in advance, and with this, no reorder required. Comes in a huge insulated box with dry ice )shipped free). We use a box for 2-3 months so it works out great.

https://www.personaltrainerfood.com/index.php


For the You Choose, with discount it's $345 vs. $629 for 140 items, meats, veggies, breakfasts and snacks (can get snacks anywhere, Mario Olives has a foil pack with a serving, works out great). There's a core program that's less expensive with just lunches and dinners and a REV for rapid results with 2 veggies for dinner and coaching. Have lost 20+ pounds a month on the PTF plan, strict on what you can't have but very generous with what you can have.

Just ordered, we love the sticks, there are two sticks and do not taste low carb/paleo/diet at all with the light breading. They have spicy ones including a new Buffalo. They add new items often, looking forward to the country ham. PTF really works, 4 minutes in the microwave and you're eating. The food is all in microwave steamer bags and lasts a long time. Even the garlic butter sauce is yummy, we order an extra.

PTF Order 11-10.JPG

Lots of snacks are allowed because meat and veggies are unlimited. They sell (at too high a price) meat bars.. just looked on Amazon and they have a meat sampler pack for $23.95. 6oz a day of hard cheese (like Cheddar) is permitted too so meat and cheese bars are a great and pretty filling alternative.

Mission Meats Sugar Free Sampler Pack Grass Fed Beef Sticks & Bars & Healthy Free Range Turkey Sticks Gluten MSG Nitrate & Nitrite Free Paleo Friendly Snacks by Mission Meats
Price: $23.95 ($2.00 / Count) FREE One-Day
Flavor: Keto Sampler
Size: 12 Count
The ultimate sample pack! 3 Tasty Original Grass Fed Beef Sticks, 3 Blazin Pepper Grass Fed Beef Sticks, 3 Scrumptious Free Range Turkey Sticks and 3 Tasty Original Grass Fed Beef Bars! Phew!




Been neglectful the past few months but still have some in the freezer and will get the order later this month. When we heat them up, we realize how much we like them, food quality and nutrition is great (they post all facts for every item). Unlimited salad and full fat dressing is allowed, it's a fun plan that works. Using it around the holidays (knowing some days will be anything goes) at least mitigates those holiday dinners.

[Foggy]

'Course, the meetup didn't help my weight loss. But it was worth every minute of breaking my diet to eat at all the various restaurants with the group.

And then I gained another couple of lbs. at the State Fair, of course. The NC State University ice cream is not to be missed - they raise the cattle, milk them, and make the ice cream from scratch, and they give you a nice BIG cup for $5. The best deal in town.

The Fair was open 11 days, and I had 11 cups of ice cream.

So I'm still hovering around 191 to 193, and trying to get back on track for 185 and eventually 175.

Tried a new product yesterday, Isopure, something ol' Wifehorn got a while back, 40 grams of protein and no carbs in a pint bottle. Orange/banana/pineapple flavor, supposedly. But I didn't like it and won't be drinking that no more.

At least I'm still working out and walking every day ...