Fire!

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Volkonski
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Re: Fire!

#1651

Post by Volkonski »

The spire has collapsed into the main building. :(
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Re: Fire!

#1652

Post by fierceredpanda »

Volkonski wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:24 pm
Don't know if it is related but the cathedral has been undergoing renovations.
It started right below the scaffolding. I'm pretty sure some construction worker dropped a torch or otherwise screwed up. It's a real bad day to be the insurance carrier for a construction subcontractor. "Bon jour! I'm calling on behalf of Jacque's Le Super Discount Priceless Cathedral Repair and Restoration Company. Um, we're going to need to make a claim on our CGL policy...Yeah, you should probably just send over a check for the per-occurrence maximum."
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Re: Fire!

#1653

Post by Whatever4 »

Horrible. Horrible. Horrible.
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Re: Fire!

#1654

Post by Volkonski »

The fire has almost reached the bell towers.
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Re: Fire!

#1655

Post by much ado »

Sickening.

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Re: Fire!

#1656

Post by fierceredpanda »

From where I sit, the fewer pretty buildings are in the possession of the Catholic Church, the fewer shiny objects it has to distract people from the undeniable fact that the Church is, in the main, a cabal for the protection of child molesters. I feel about as bad about this as most of Paris would have felt upon seeing the Bastille be demolished. Beautiful building concealing inner depravity.

I realize that's a callous thing to say, but nowhere near as callous as letting the Church off the hook for victimizing countless children around the world.
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Re: Fire!

#1657

Post by AndyinPA »

So sad.
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Re: Fire!

#1658

Post by Whatever4 »

fierceredpanda wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:06 pm
From where I sit, the fewer pretty buildings are in the possession of the Catholic Church, the fewer shiny objects it has to distract people from the undeniable fact that the Church is, in the main, a cabal for the protection of child molesters. I feel about as bad about this as most of Paris would have felt upon seeing the Bastille be demolished. Beautiful building concealing inner depravity.

I realize that's a callous thing to say, but nowhere near as callous as letting the Church off the hook for victimizing countless children around the world.
That’s a pretty repellent thing to say. Notre Dame Cathedral is a huge cultural and historical icon. Shirley we can separate that from the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
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Re: Fire!

#1659

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

fierceredpanda wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:06 pm
From where I sit, the fewer pretty buildings are in the possession of the Catholic Church, the fewer shiny objects it has to distract people from the undeniable fact that the Church is, in the main, a cabal for the protection of child molesters. I feel about as bad about this as most of Paris would have felt upon seeing the Bastille be demolished. Beautiful building concealing inner depravity.

I realize that's a callous thing to say, but nowhere near as callous as letting the Church off the hook for victimizing countless children around the world.
:like:
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Re: Fire!

#1660

Post by Volkonski »

The entire inside of the building is on fire. The bell towers might fall onto nearby buildings if they collapse. Evacuations underway. Firefighters now spraying water into the fire from tall bucket lifts.
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Re: Fire!

#1661

Post by realist »

Whatever4 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:16 pm
fierceredpanda wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:06 pm
From where I sit, the fewer pretty buildings are in the possession of the Catholic Church, the fewer shiny objects it has to distract people from the undeniable fact that the Church is, in the main, a cabal for the protection of child molesters. I feel about as bad about this as most of Paris would have felt upon seeing the Bastille be demolished. Beautiful building concealing inner depravity.

I realize that's a callous thing to say, but nowhere near as callous as letting the Church off the hook for victimizing countless children around the world.
That’s a pretty repellent thing to say. Notre Dame Cathedral is a huge cultural and historical icon. Shirley we can separate that from the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
One would certainly hope so, but apparently not.
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Re: Fire!

#1662

Post by fierceredpanda »

Whatever4 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:16 pm
That’s a pretty repellent thing to say. Notre Dame Cathedral is a huge cultural and historical icon. Shirley we can separate that from the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
I agree, it's a repellant thought, but separating the Church as an institution from the pretty architecture is exactly what the Church has been banking on as an implicit defense against its crimes. "Sure, we've facilitated thousands upon thousand of child rapes on every continent, but look at our Sistine Chapel! If you come for the Church, what will the world do without our contributions from 800 years ago?"

I was in Milwaukee just after the scandal there unfolded. The Milwaukee Archdiocese quickly stuffed as much money as possible into the fund for maintaining Catholic cemeteries, and then declared bankruptcy to try to defeat any efforts by victims to get any compensation for the unspeakable violations inflicted upon them. And then the Archdiocese basically held the graves of dead Catholics hostage by saying, "Well, if we pay these judgments, we won't have any money to maintain these cemeteries!"

This Church, as a whole, treats its most vulnerable members with utter indifference. Why should I treat their churches, handsome though they may be, any differently?
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Re: Fire!

#1663

Post by Maybenaut »

Whatever4 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:16 pm
That’s a pretty repellent thing to say. Notre Dame Cathedral is a huge cultural and historical icon. Shirley we can separate that from the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
:yeah:

I’m an atheist who *loves* architecture. All architecture. Even that built by people who held beliefs I don’t share, and who did awful things in the name of those beliefs, or under the protection of those institutions. Note Dame was very high on my list of places I wanted to see before I die. Clearly not going to happen now. So, for me at least, the Loss of Notre Dame is a cause for sadness, not glee.
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Re: Fire!

#1664

Post by realist »

Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:31 pm
Whatever4 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:16 pm
That’s a pretty repellent thing to say. Notre Dame Cathedral is a huge cultural and historical icon. Shirley we can separate that from the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
:yeah:

I’m an atheist who *loves* architecture. All architecture. Even that built by people who held beliefs I don’t share, and who did awful things in the name of those beliefs, or under the protection of those institutions. Note Dame was very high on my list of places I wanted to see before I die. Clearly not going to happen now. So, for me at least, the Loss of Notre Dame is a cause for sadness, not glee.
Indeed, Maybenaut. An architectural marvel and far more than a religious icon.
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Re: Fire!

#1665

Post by fierceredpanda »

Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:31 pm
Whatever4 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:16 pm
That’s a pretty repellent thing to say. Notre Dame Cathedral is a huge cultural and historical icon. Shirley we can separate that from the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
:yeah:

I’m an atheist who *loves* architecture. All architecture. Even that built by people who held beliefs I don’t share, and who did awful things in the name of those beliefs, or under the protection of those institutions. Note Dame was very high on my list of places I wanted to see before I die. Clearly not going to happen now. So, for me at least, the Loss of Notre Dame is a cause for sadness, not glee.
I'm not gleeful. I'm mostly revolted to see so many people (not here specifically, just generally) expressing more concern for the well-being of a goddamned building than the lives of children victimized by the Church.

It's a building. Buildings can be replaced and repaired, and will inevitably be destroyed. There is no human life on Earth that is worth one building on Earth, nor one victim's childhood. That's the moral context that I'm not seeing anywhere. It's all just endless hand-wringing about how sad it is that a building is on fire.

Besides, no one wrings their hands about the many medieval cathedrals that were destroyed by allied bombing campaigns in World War 2. I can't imagine why not...
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton


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Re: Fire!

#1666

Post by much ado »

Here is a Youtube video of the central spire falling...


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Re: Fire!

#1667

Post by Jeffrey »

no one wrings their hands about the many medieval cathedrals that were destroyed by allied bombing campaigns in World War 2. I can't imagine why not...
I know trolling when I see it.

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Re: Fire!

#1668

Post by fierceredpanda »

Oh good. I get accused of trolling for pointing out the basic moral failing of spending more emotional energy being sad about a building burning down than about children being molested.

I don't understand humanity sometimes.
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Re: Fire!

#1669

Post by AndyinPA »

Any time we lose something so old and iconic as Notre Dame it's sad. It doesn't matter whether it's church related or not to me. I can remember years ago when touring the Vatican Museum being mostly horrified that they held such wealth and there was such poverty in the world. I couldn't look at the treasures it held without being horrified, and it's the way I feel today when I think back on it. I feel something of the same way when touring cathedrals, palaces, and castles. I think they held such wealth because they kept their people enslaved in misery. Sometimes I'm nearly in tears in some of those places, but it is what it is, sadly. I would be just as sad seeing Machu Picchu burning as I am seeing Notre Dame burning. I will always remember the lovely spring day I was there, and I'm sad for those who won't see it.
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Re: Fire!

#1670

Post by Maybenaut »

fierceredpanda wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:41 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:31 pm
Whatever4 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:16 pm
That’s a pretty repellent thing to say. Notre Dame Cathedral is a huge cultural and historical icon. Shirley we can separate that from the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
:yeah:

I’m an atheist who *loves* architecture. All architecture. Even that built by people who held beliefs I don’t share, and who did awful things in the name of those beliefs, or under the protection of those institutions. Note Dame was very high on my list of places I wanted to see before I die. Clearly not going to happen now. So, for me at least, the Loss of Notre Dame is a cause for sadness, not glee.
I'm not gleeful. I'm mostly revolted to see so many people (not here specifically, just generally) expressing more concern for the well-being of a goddamned building than the lives of children victimized by the Church.

It's a building. Buildings can be replaced and repaired, and will inevitably be destroyed. There is no human life on Earth that is worth one building on Earth, nor one victim's childhood. That's the moral context that I'm not seeing anywhere. It's all just endless hand-wringing about how sad it is that a building is on fire.

Besides, no one wrings their hands about the many medieval cathedrals that were destroyed by allied bombing campaigns in World War 2. I can't imagine why not...
So the fact that I’m sad about the loss of a building necessarily means that I (and I must say, I’m having a hard time separating myself from the people “just generally” that you’re talking about) don’t care about Catholic priests molesting children, and that the church covered it up, didn’t do anything about it, or whatever? That’s such bullshit.

I don’t have to like the Catholic Church, or support everything (or anything) it stands for, or agree with its handling of abuse issues, to believe that the loss of the structure is an unfortunate incident in world history, given its importance to the fields of architecture and construction.

The reason you’re not seeing the “moral context” of the value of the building versus the value of a person’s childhood is because it’s a false equivalency. Nobody is saying that the Cathedral of Notre Dame (or any structure) is “more important” than any child. I’m certainly not saying that, and to the extent that your comments suggested that I am, I find it a little offensive.

I am under no false illusions about the Catholic Church, or the horrors that it has inflicted on its members throughout the ages. I personally have been victimized by the church plenty. But I’m more than capable of feeling outrage about that on the one hand, and sadness at the loss of what was an architectural marvel at the time and is perhaps the best example of Gothic architecture still in existence on the other. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Fire!

#1671

Post by Jeffrey »

I’d like to see the math on how you quantified how much emotional energy was spent. You can be upset about child rape and all the other crimes of the church and also be upset about the destruction of a cultural landmark. It’s a bad take and an immature thing to post while the thing is still aflame. Or wait we can’t be upset about 9/11 because the financial companies in the twin towers did bad things.

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Re: Fire!

#1672

Post by Mikedunford »

Kinda with Jeffery on this one.
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Re: Fire!

#1673

Post by MN-Skeptic »

I know. This is getting off topic.

I don't think that there's anyone who is not horrified by what has happened at the hands of some Catholic clergy. I am appalled at how atrocities were handled.

That said... the Catholic Church has millions of fine believers and has had hundreds of thousands of dedicated, committed clergy over the centuries. The percentage of people in positions of power who should be vilified is a tiny fraction of the whole centuries long membership in the church. Notre Dame Cathedral may be legally owned by the Pope (ok, I know that's not quite right, but it's some legal entity of the Catholic Church), but the Cathedral was built over the decades by ordinary citizens and church members. It's a symbol of what they believe. It's a place to gather and to worship. It may legally belong to the Catholic Church, but it really belongs to all Catholic believers. And because of that, we grieve for them with the loss of their historic Cathedral.
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Re: Fire!

#1674

Post by Whatever4 »

fierceredpanda wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:41 pm

Besides, no one wrings their hands about the many medieval cathedrals that were destroyed by allied bombing campaigns in World War 2. I can't imagine why not...
Yes they do. Some of the British ones have become incorporated into memorials or parks. The bombed Coventry Cathredral is a moving memorial to the destruction of war.

It’s possible to hold more than one view of a complex issue. Yes, the child (and adult) molestations are heinous. So was the Inquisition. So were the other scandals that the Roman Catholic and other churches were involved in. So was the burning of heretics, the Crusades, the Dissolution of the Monasteries under Henry VIII, and all the other atrocities in the name of any religion.

But religion and spirituality have been major drivers of art and expression as long as people have been sentient. The stained glass in ND was amazing, both original Gothic and later contemporary version. Standing in the cathedral, I felt the power of a thousand years of individuals sharing beliefs that were at the center of their every day lives.

I’m not Roman Catholic. I’m barely religious. But Notre Dame Cathedral is a huge loss to Paris and the World.
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Re: Fire!

#1675

Post by Whatever4 »

MN-Skeptic wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:24 pm
I know. This is getting off topic.

I don't think that there's anyone who is not horrified by what has happened at the hands of some Catholic clergy. I am appalled at how atrocities were handled.

That said... the Catholic Church has millions of fine believers and has had hundreds of thousands of dedicated, committed clergy over the centuries. The percentage of people in positions of power who should be vilified is a tiny fraction of the whole centuries long membership in the church. Notre Dame Cathedral may be legally owned by the Pope (ok, I know that's not quite right, but it's some legal entity of the Catholic Church), but the Cathedral was built over the decades by ordinary citizens and church members. It's a symbol of what they believe. It's a place to gather and to worship. It may legally belong to the Catholic Church, but it really belongs to all Catholic believers. And because of that, we grieve for them with the loss of their historic Cathedral.
:yeah:

That’s a bingo there. Well put.
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