Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

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Chilidog
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Chilidog »

RVInit wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:42 pm Good thing they just happened to have a bone saw handy when the attempt to arrest him and bring him back to Saudi Arabia went awry.
Doesn't every consulate have one?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

fierceredpanda wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:59 pm Bold strategy. Admitting you murdered someone in a diplomatic consulate, but it was total accident!

Even Vladmir Putin has never been so contemptuous of the rest of the world as to try that one. He always at least has the courtesy to deny that the assassinations of his enemies had anything to do with his government at all. But then, Putin doesn't have people offed inside a fucking consulate.
And to prove that it was an accident, they say their plan was to abduct him, not kill him.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Mr Pfister »

Chilidog wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:46 pm
RVInit wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:42 pm Good thing they just happened to have a bone saw handy when the attempt to arrest him and bring him back to Saudi Arabia went awry.
Doesn't every consulate have one?
Only Saudi Consulates
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Dan1100 »

Mr Pfister wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:51 pm
Chilidog wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:46 pm
RVInit wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:42 pm Good thing they just happened to have a bone saw handy when the attempt to arrest him and bring him back to Saudi Arabia went awry.
Doesn't every consulate have one?
Only Saudi Consulates
Using a real surgeon's bone saw to chop up bodies is like driving a Rolls Royce. A very Saudi move.

Most murderers opt for the standard sawzall for sale at any Walmart.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Mr Pfister »

Dan1100 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:59 pm
Mr Pfister wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:51 pm
Chilidog wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:46 pm

Doesn't every consulate have one?
Only Saudi Consulates
Using a real surgeon's bone saw to chop up bodies is like driving a Rolls Royce. A very Saudi move.

Most murderers opt for the standard sawzall for sale at any Walmart.
I use only Dewalt sawzalls for cutting up bodies.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by BBFlatt »

Is the consulate considered Saudi sovereign territory? Does Turkey have jurisdiction for crimes committed there?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by maydijo »

BBFlatt wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:10 pm Is the consulate considered Saudi sovereign territory? Does Turkey have jurisdiction for crimes committed there?
I thought (but could be wrong) that only embassies were considered sovereign territory, not consulates.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Kendra »

Maybe dumb question, but the news has been flying the last week. How do we know there was a bone saw with one of the men? Did someone report seeing it, or was he known to carry one everywhere? Or something else.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by HST's Ghost »

Not sure where the bone-saw news came from but apparently SA's top forensic's expert was also in tow...Which I guess they could justify that he was needed to make sure he didn't die during torture, but I think it is fairly obvious that no matter what now, they are going to push the "rogue" narrative. Hopefully the WaPo and others will doggedly pursue SA, especially with the report of all the evidence tying them to 911 and the tragic attacks on Yemen to push for some much needed light on what is really going on in the region...

Maybe I am so interested in this case because I live in the consulate neighborhood of Saigon. I walk Ginger (my avatar) past the Kuwaiti consulate everyday, and now have to look for out dark vans and ditched bone-saws in addition to motorbikes driving on the sidewalks...
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Fortinbras »

Trump has begun to demonstrate that his pledge of Justice for Jamal is, like most Trump pledges, written in water. He had backed off - perhaps out of fear of Saudi retaliation (which could be as simple and devastating as the suddenly removal of all Saudi money from the American banks and from Wall Street) or Saudi cancellation of the multi-billion dollar armament purchases or some other Saudi reprisal (such as refusing to sell the US petroleum). Whatever the reason, it shows that Saudi oil money trumps Trump. And murderers will be allowed to go free.

Trump's latest is floating a rumor that somehow Jamal was followed into the Saudi embassy in Istanbul by "rogue killers" - who somehow were permitted by embassy staff to kill him - and take the time to dismember his body - and not arrested by embassy staff, nor were the Turkish law enforcement called, and apparently these rogue killers allowed to leave the embassy .... but the embassy must be so deeply mortified that nobody is admitting to those events. And then Trump bought some magic beans in return for our remaining cow and he's going to climb up and steal an enchanted harp.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Reality Check »

Fortinbras wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:54 pm Trump has begun to demonstrate that his pledge of Justice for Jamal is, like most Trump pledges, written in water. :snippity:
Great points. I agree except that the Saudi's will probably end up beheading the guys who did the actual murder at the Kings behest. Can you imagine how that phone call will go. "Praise Allah. Thank you for your loyal service to Allah and his Majesty. Unfortunately circumstances require that you make one small additional sacrifice ...."
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by fierceredpanda »

Couple of major K Street lobbying firms just dumped the Saudis. You'd think with all the sudden DOJ interest in FARA prosecutions, those firms would have been ready to jump at the first sign of trouble, and you'd be right.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by GreatGrey »

I like Embassys that don’t have rogue killers lurking inside.
I am not "someone upthread".
Trump needs to be smashed into some kind of inedible orange pâté.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Gregg »

Fortinbras wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:54 pm Trump has begun to demonstrate that his pledge of Justice for Jamal is, like most Trump pledges, written in water. He had backed off - perhaps out of fear of Saudi retaliation (which could be as simple and devastating as the suddenly removal of all Saudi money from the American banks and from Wall Street) or Saudi cancellation of the multi-billion dollar armament purchases or some other Saudi reprisal (such as refusing to sell the US petroleum). Whatever the reason, it shows that Saudi oil money trumps Trump. And murderers will be allowed to go free.

Trump's latest is floating a rumor that somehow Jamal was followed into the Saudi embassy in Istanbul by "rogue killers" - who somehow were permitted by embassy staff to kill him - and take the time to dismember his body - and not arrested by embassy staff, nor were the Turkish law enforcement called, and apparently these rogue killers allowed to leave the embassy .... but the embassy must be so deeply mortified that nobody is admitting to those events. And then Trump bought some magic beans in return for our remaining cow and he's going to climb up and steal an enchanted harp.
I think you're overestimating the amount and influence of Saudi Arabia on our economy. The amount of money they have in US banks is bigger than most but pulling it out would hardly cripple them. As for the oil, we don't buy a lot of oil from them, most of our imported oil comes from Canada and then Saudi Arabia, Mexico, and Venezuela, in that order. Of that, 40% of it is Canada while only 9% is from Saudi Arabia. We could make up that 9%. The arms purchases are potentially big ones, but the whole deal was vaporware from the beginning, more an agreement in principle than signed deals. We'll survive. We could be more insulated from any reprisal if we got the allies to go along with it, and they probably will anyway because they have principles, and more of the oil will go to China instead of Australia and Japan, Korea etc...

The danger, and I don't think its likely, is that Saudi Arabia turns off the oil to everyone, and that increases world prices, because its kind of fungible (its not but the market acts like it is with adjustments) . Another thing, we might have to reconfigure some refineries if we radically adjust out supply, because certain refineries are set up to refine certain kinds of crude and one calibrated to refine Saudi light crude can't just run crude from Mexico or Canada.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Dan1100 »

Gregg wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:57 pm
Fortinbras wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:54 pm Trump has begun to demonstrate that his pledge of Justice for Jamal is, like most Trump pledges, written in water. He had backed off - perhaps out of fear of Saudi retaliation (which could be as simple and devastating as the suddenly removal of all Saudi money from the American banks and from Wall Street) or Saudi cancellation of the multi-billion dollar armament purchases or some other Saudi reprisal (such as refusing to sell the US petroleum). Whatever the reason, it shows that Saudi oil money trumps Trump. And murderers will be allowed to go free.

Trump's latest is floating a rumor that somehow Jamal was followed into the Saudi embassy in Istanbul by "rogue killers" - who somehow were permitted by embassy staff to kill him - and take the time to dismember his body - and not arrested by embassy staff, nor were the Turkish law enforcement called, and apparently these rogue killers allowed to leave the embassy .... but the embassy must be so deeply mortified that nobody is admitting to those events. And then Trump bought some magic beans in return for our remaining cow and he's going to climb up and steal an enchanted harp.
I think you're overestimating the amount and influence of Saudi Arabia on our economy. The amount of money they have in US banks is bigger than most but pulling it out would hardly cripple them. As for the oil, we don't buy a lot of oil from them, most of our imported oil comes from Canada and then Saudi Arabia, Mexico, and Venezuela, in that order. Of that, 40% of it is Canada while only 9% is from Saudi Arabia. We could make up that 9%. The arms purchases are potentially big ones, but the whole deal was vaporware from the beginning, more an agreement in principle than signed deals. We'll survive. We could be more insulated from any reprisal if we got the allies to go along with it, and they probably will anyway because they have principles, and more of the oil will go to China instead of Australia and Japan, Korea etc...

The danger, and I don't think its likely, is that Saudi Arabia turns off the oil to everyone, and that increases world prices, because its kind of fungible (its not but the market acts like it is with adjustments) . Another thing, we might have to reconfigure some refineries if we radically adjust out supply, because certain refineries are set up to refine certain kinds of crude and one calibrated to refine Saudi light crude can't just run crude from Mexico or Canada.
But they pay a lot of condo maintenance fees in Manhattan. Imagine how much money Trump and his golf buddies would lose if they pulled out of the NYC real estate market.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

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In my view, Trump could not care less what happens to the economy. A casual mention about what could happen to his own bank balance however would have him dressing in a clown suit and barking like a dog.

Lovely image.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Gregg »

Suranis wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:30 am In my view, Trump could not care less what happens to the economy. A casual mention about what could happen to his own bank balance however would have him dressing in a clown suit and barking like a dog.

Lovely image.

How would that be any different that what he's doing?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by RVInit »

Gregg wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:29 am
Suranis wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:30 am In my view, Trump could not care less what happens to the economy. A casual mention about what could happen to his own bank balance however would have him dressing in a clown suit and barking like a dog.

Lovely image.

How would that be any different that what he's doing?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

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An article from 2016. Khashoggi's work was banned from Saudi Arabian media because he said Trump's Middle Eastern policies were contradictory. The entire article is quoted below.
A Saudi Arabian journalist and commentator has been banned by his country for criticising US President-elect Donald Trump.

Jamal Khashoggi has been banned from writing in newspapers, making TV appearances and attending conferences, Middle East Eye reports.

After Mr Khashoggi criticised Mr Trump's Middle East policies at a Washington think-tank on 10 November, an official Saudi spokesman said he did not represent the Kingdom in a statement to the Saudi Press Agency.

Speaking at the Washington Institute, Mr Khashoggi described Mr Trump's stance on the Middle East as "contradictory", BreakingEnergy.com reported.

Mr Khashoggi said that while Mr Trump has been vocally anti-Iran, he has hinted he will support President Bashar al-Assad in Syria's civil war, a move which will ultimately bolster Iran.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... lUwXKmr15s
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

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Any consideration of the economic ramifications of all of this has to take into account the fact that SA is in desperate need to change their economy to get ready for when oil no longer provides for all the cash to run that air conditioned-beast in the desert. Thus the "Vision 2030"...The Saudis are in desperate need of foreign investment and taking all their cash out of the US wouldn't be a great move...Of course if the US seized a bunch of it...
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

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HST's Ghost wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:19 am Any consideration of the economic ramifications of all of this has to take into account the fact that SA is in desperate need to change their economy to get ready for when oil no longer provides for all the cash to run that air conditioned-beast in the desert. Thus the "Vision 2030"...The Saudis are in desperate need of foreign investment and taking all their cash out of the US wouldn't be a great move...Of course if the US seized a bunch of it...
:thumbs: We hold virtually ALL of the cards here and that isn't even taking into consideration the morality of it. But Trump is only thinking of the millions that Saudi Arabians put into his pockets buying his tacky real estate. That is all that matters to him and he pretty much said as much at every rally where he has talked about the Middle East. He gives not one shit about the USA.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by Mikedunford »

maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:13 pm
BBFlatt wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:10 pm Is the consulate considered Saudi sovereign territory? Does Turkey have jurisdiction for crimes committed there?
I thought (but could be wrong) that only embassies were considered sovereign territory, not consulates.
Under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, there's not much of a distinction between consulates and embassies. And the VCCR is generally considered to embody preexisting customary international law, meaning that states are expected to follow the principles whether or not they're parties to the VCCR.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by HST's Ghost »

Speaking of diplomatic immunity...
UN rights chief calls to lift Saudi 'immunity' over Khashoggi
GENEVA: The U.N. human rights chief called Tuesday for the lifting of the immunity of officials who might be involved in the disappearance of a Saudi Arabian journalist at the kingdom's consulate in Turkey.

"In view of the seriousness of the situation surrounding the disappearance of Mr. [Jamal] Khashoggi, I believe the inviolability or immunity of the relevant premises and officials bestowed by treaties such as the 1963 Vienna Convention on Consular Relations should be waived immediately," rights chief Michelle Bachelet said in a statement.

:snippity:

Saudi Arabia can lift the immunity of its consulate and officials.

Bachelet's spokesman Rupert Colville told AFP that the U.N. rights chief had been in contact with the Saudis to discuss the matter.

"Given [that] there seems to be clear evidence that Mr. Khashoggi entered the Consulate and has never been seen since, the onus is on the Saudi authorities to reveal what happened to him from that point onwards," Bachelet said.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle ... hoggi.ashx

And...Pompeo has landed in SA...What is his tack/mission then?


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Two very conflicting theories floating on why Pompeo is in Riyadh now:
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- Theory #2: Pompeo is there to discuss with King Salman changes to the Saudi line of succession.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi murder... will it ensnare Trump?

Post by fierceredpanda »

For some reason, I keep thinking about Orlando Letelier since the Khashoggi story broke. :think:

Yeah, we tend to forget that the United States government was totally cool with the Chilean secret police whacking dissidents with car bombs in Washington, DC (on Embassy Row, no less!) not that long ago.
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