No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#76

Post by Addie » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:06 pm

The Hill
Jewish leaders tell Trump he's not welcome in Pittsburgh until he denounces white nationalism

A group of Jewish leaders told President Trump that he is no longer welcome in Pittsburgh until he denounces white nationalism following the shooting at a synagogue there over the weekend.

Eleven members of the Pittsburgh affiliate of Bend the Arc: A Jewish Partnership for Justice penned a letter to Trump following the Saturday shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue.

“Our Jewish community is not the only group you have targeted,” the group wrote. “You have also deliberately undermined the safety of people of color, Muslims, LGBTQ people, and people with disabilities. Yesterday’s massacre is not the first act of terror you incited against a minority group in our country.”

Trump was fiercely criticized after he failed to condemn white supremacy and asserted that there is “blame on both sides” after last year’s white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va.

The group also said Trump is not welcome in the city until he also stops targeting minorities, immigrants and refugees.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#77

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:53 pm

Addie wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:06 pm
The Hill
Jewish leaders tell Trump he's not welcome in Pittsburgh until he denounces white nationalism

A group of Jewish leaders told President Trump that he is no longer welcome in Pittsburgh until he denounces white nationalism following the shooting at a synagogue there over the weekend.

Eleven members of the Pittsburgh affiliate of Bend the Arc: A Jewish Partnership for Justice penned a letter to Trump following the Saturday shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue.

“Our Jewish community is not the only group you have targeted,” the group wrote. “You have also deliberately undermined the safety of people of color, Muslims, LGBTQ people, and people with disabilities. Yesterday’s massacre is not the first act of terror you incited against a minority group in our country.

Trump was fiercely criticized after he failed to condemn white supremacy and asserted that there is “blame on both sides” after last year’s white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va.

The group also said Trump is not welcome in the city until he also stops targeting minorities, immigrants and refugees.

Great, and the rest of the Jewish groups are... silent... just as they were silent when he was tweeting anti-Semitic posts in 2016. This is why we are where we are.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#78

Post by Lani » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:40 pm

DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:53 pm
Addie wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:06 pm
The Hill
:snippity:

Great, and the rest of the Jewish groups are... silent... just as they were silent when he was tweeting anti-Semitic posts in 2016. This is why we are where we are.
That reads as we are where are because Jewish groups are silent. So it's their fault???? (I hope that was just a booboo in sentence construction.)

Jewish organizations across the world are speaking out. (And did so during the campaign, btw. Maybe too many news sources were busy laffing at Trump's antics and sighing with concern about Hill's emails?)

But then and now, people of all faiths and no faiths are speaking up, gathering on the streets, and calling Trump & Pals out for the horror they are causing, I believe intentionally.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#79

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:32 am

Lani wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:40 pm
DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:53 pm
Addie wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:06 pm
The Hill
:snippity:

Great, and the rest of the Jewish groups are... silent... just as they were silent when he was tweeting anti-Semitic posts in 2016. This is why we are where we are.
That reads as we are where are because Jewish groups are silent. So it's their fault???? (I hope that was just a booboo in sentence construction.)

Jewish organizations across the world are speaking out. (And did so during the campaign, btw. Maybe too many news sources were busy laffing at Trump's antics and sighing with concern about Hill's emails?)

But then and now, people of all faiths and no faiths are speaking up, gathering on the streets, and calling Trump & Pals out for the horror they are causing, I believe intentionally.
They're speaking out? So where are the protests then? Its actually a question I've asked a lot in the past 2 years.
Anyone with half a brain knew what the whole Pepe alt-right symbol was about. Then a candidate for the President of the United States used it. Where were the protests?

Then when he tweeted a Star of David superimposed over a pile of money, that was after he tweeted a meme directly from Stormfront. Where were the protests?

When Breitbart ran a headline "Renegade Jew," where were the protests? Where were the picketers outside of the offices of Breitbart? How about some boycotts?

I actually emailed the ADL about a few of those. They said they were neutral when it came to electoral candidates.

Then when you had people chanting "Jews will not replace us," then outside of a synagogue, shouting "Heil Hitler," I thought "Where are the protests?"

When Trump said they were very fine people, that was enough for Gary Cohn, but apparently not enough for the organizations that have sworn to guard against the rise of anti-semitism, because, where were the protests? How about a full page ad?

And now, 11 are dead, in a synagogue, by a man shouting "Kill all the Jews!" but will there be a protest outside of Fox News? Will all of those organizations get together, show the world how the anti-semitic dog whistles that they use are getting people killed? Will that happen? That's speaking out. Candlelight vigils and letters to the editor when 11 people are murdered for their faith is goddamn complacency.

So no, I do not blame the Jewish groups for the 11 deaths, I blame the actions of a sick demented man, stewed in anti-semitic propaganda that has entered into mainstream media. But if you're a group dedicated to preventing the rise of anti-semitism, you haven't been doing your job very well.

To illustrate my point here, this is what the ADL needed to be say in 2016, DURING the campaign, not 2 years and 11 bodies (12 if you count Heather Heyer) later. This.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opin ... Aw5tDdGkoQ

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#80

Post by NMgirl » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:57 am

We did speak out. We did protest. Perhaps you weren't and aren't aware, DmitriNotPetra, but hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of Jews were, and are, deeply concerned, myself included.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#81

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:07 am

NMgirl wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:57 am
We did speak out. We did protest. Perhaps you weren't and aren't aware, DmitriNotPetra, but hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of Jews were, and are, deeply concerned, myself included.
No, I'm not aware. I read several newspapers a day. These mass protests in 2016 against the sickening and jaw-dropping anti-semitism embraced by the GOP did not seem to register. I can recall the Women's March. But I can't seem to remember a March Against Anti-Semitism. Now that the ADL has come out and stated the rather obvious that these "George Soros Conspiracies" are really "Anti-semitic conspiracies," there will be a coordinated demand by these groups to fire Sean Hannity, right? I mean, its not like in a week, one of the most widely watched programs in the US will continue to pump out material overtly declared anti-semitic with nary a peep, right? That won't happen, right?

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#82

Post by Lani » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:51 am

The Women's March wasn't about secret female thingies. It was to speak out about the assault on all of our civil liberties, including racial and religious discrimination.

So where are the complaining Jews? I mean, besides participating in the Women's March. And supporting immigrants, science, education, social welfare, action on climate change, LGBT rights, etc. Well, the Pew Research Center estimates 5.3 million Jews live in the United States, accounting for approximately 2.2 percent of the U.S. adult population. So maybe you just aren't linked in to hearing a small minority voice. It is hard for minorities to be heard and given credibility.

Shouldn't the question be why isn't every person of goodwill speaking out loudly each and day about the abuse being piled on people who pray, love and/or look differently from the aryan christian standard? Are you suggesting that minorities are at fault for being persecuted?
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#83

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:47 am

Lani wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:51 am
The Women's March wasn't about secret female thingies. It was to speak out about the assault on all of our civil liberties, including racial and religious discrimination.

So where are the complaining Jews? I mean, besides participating in the Women's March. And supporting immigrants, science, education, social welfare, action on climate change, LGBT rights, etc. Well, the Pew Research Center estimates 5.3 million Jews live in the United States, accounting for approximately 2.2 percent of the U.S. adult population. So maybe you just aren't linked in to hearing a small minority voice. It is hard for minorities to be heard and given credibility.

Shouldn't the question be why isn't every person of goodwill speaking out loudly each and day about the abuse being piled on people who pray, love and/or look differently from the aryan christian standard? Are you suggesting that minorities are at fault for being persecuted?
Because “people of goodwill” do terrible things when a charismatic leader gives them the excuse to. We learned that 70 years ago and were learning it again today. Thats why.
Supporting the things you listed is not the same as taking active steps to stop a movement that is getting people killed because of their faith. The ADL swore on the memories of murdered millions that they would do everything in their power to stop the rise of the mechanisms, propaganda and ideology that led to that atrocity, and it is my firm opinion that in this goal they have failed miserably by buying into the same milquetoast liberal platitudes of civility and politeness and inclusiveness.
So, let me ask you, your support for immigrants, science, LGBT rights, education, social welfare, etc, in short, all the things that have been decimated in the past two years, do you think they like the ADL could maybe be doing a better job at it? Or is asking such questions blaming the victim and all that, and we should just hold hands and pass out the participation trophies?

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#84

Post by Lani » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:58 am

Yeah, so 97.8% of the population should be taking action to stop the lies and deaths. Why are you decrying the 2.2%?
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#85

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:04 am

Lani wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:58 am
Yeah, so 97.8% of the population should be taking action to stop the lies and deaths. Why are you decrying the 2.2%?
I’m not. I’m decrying the organizations who are chartered to try to stop this sort of thing dropping the ball and hard. I’m decrying the complacency and excuses that has taken the place of activism.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#86

Post by Lani » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:41 am

So not blaming the Jews? I hoped you weren't.

I'm not Jewish and I live in an Asian American community. I have been explaining dog whistles about Blacks and Jews for years here. They don't hear them because their experiences are different. Japanese Americans whose parents were sent to internment camps. Filipino families who were promised life in America for their sacrifices during WWII, long denied. Chinese Americans whose ancestors were murdered in California. American history is ugly. Also amazing. If we ever accept the beauty of diversity, we'll have a magnificent country.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#87

Post by Whatever4 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:03 am

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/13/148 ... rhsmLCV_xI

Interesting comparison of anti-Semitic attacks under Obama and under Trump, and reactions to them.
We are now forced to talk about how hate has been mainstreamed. We are now forced to talk about how ideas that were once fringe have become an acceptable part of public discourse. That, even more than the number of anti-Semitic threats and implied violence, may be the most frightening part of the atmosphere of Trump’s first months in office.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#88

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:12 am

Demitri,

Where and when have you protested?
Edit: ETA the "when" which got lost somewhere. :oops:
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#89

Post by HST's Ghost » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:20 am

Cross-posting from the Brazil thread because this really focuses on the global rise of fascism...No answers offered about how to counter this new, and extremely effective, form of propaganda...

Even though many moons ago my academic focus was Latin America, and I read quite a bit about the Southern Cone Dictatorships and the Brazilian Generals, I have not kept up on Brazil and Bolsonaro. This is very tragic, especially his open affection for those shitheel fascists...This is an interesting overview of how the Right has had great success warping political environments with propaganda via social media and apps...
This Is How We Radicalized The World
On Sunday, far-right evangelical Jair Bolsonaro was elected president of Brazil. The era of being surprised at this kind of politics is over. Now we have to live with what we've done.

SÃO PAULO, Brazil — From the balcony of BuzzFeed’s São Paulo office right now, you can hear screams of “Ele Não” echoing through the city’s winding avenues. It’s the same phrase I’ve seen graffitied all over the city this month. The same one I heard chanted from restaurants and bars all afternoon. It means “not him” — him being Bolsonaro. But his victory tonight isn’t a surprise. He’s just one more product of the strange new forces that dictate the very fabric of our lives.

It’s been a decade since I first felt like something was changing about the way we interact with the internet. In 2010, as a young news intern for a now-defunct website called the Awl, one of the first pieces I ever pitched was an explainer about why 4chan trolls were trying to take the also now-defunct website Gawker off the internet via a distributed denial of service (DDOS) attack. It was a world I knew. I was a 19-year-old who spent most of my time doing what we now recognize as “shitposting.” It was the beginning of an era where our old ideas about information, privacy, politics, and culture were beginning to warp.

I’ve followed that dark evolution of internet culture ever since. I’ve had the privilege — or deeply strange curse — to chase the growth of global political warfare around the world. In the last four years, I’ve been to 22 countries, six continents, and been on the ground for close to a dozen referendums and elections. I was in London for UK’s nervous breakdown over Brexit, in Barcelona for Catalonia’s failed attempts at a secession from Spain, in Sweden as neo-Nazis tried to march on the country’s largest book fair. And now, I’m in Brazil. But this era of being surprised at what the internet can and will do to us is ending. The damage is done. I’m trying to come to terms with the fact that I’ll probably spend the rest of my career covering the consequences.

:snippity:
:snippity:

And now, this week, Bolsonaro has won the Brazilian general election using a toxic and perfectly social media–optimized mix of evangelism, nationalism, and strongman posturing to create a cult of personality that threatens to send the country back into a military dictatorship. It seems like he’s settled on using WhatsApp as his online propaganda tool of choice. In the final days before the second vote, it was revealed that Brazilian marketing firms have been using WhatsApp to flood voters’ phones with anti-leftist propaganda. Then he announced in a Facebook video several days later that if he becomes president, he aims to change a rule created by WhatsApp that limits the number of simultaneous messages a user can send at once.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ry ... -elections
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#90

Post by Foggy » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:32 am

I have marched this year in the Women's March, the Science March, the March for Our Lives (youth march against guns), and HKonJ (Historic Thousands on Jones Street). I would have joined the rally against Kavanaugh in Raleigh on Oct. 4, but my foot was still in the Boot From Hell.

And I would surely love to march in a Jewish March. If they organize something like that, I'll be there in a heartbeat.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#91

Post by Whatever4 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:35 am

I’m troubled by Dimitri’s questions on the ADL’s and others seeming lack of action.

On the one hand, I could look up reactions to individual incidents of anti-semitism. (Most incidents reported are isolated in communities all over the country, but clustered in areas with higher Jewish populations. Graffiti, vandalism of gravesites, assaults. In decline since 2006 but trending up since 2015. https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases ... ry-in-2015 )

Or look at what the ADL has done. (Education on college campuses where a significant portion of incidents occur, working with journalists to publicize incidents as anti-Semitic, working with prosecutors and legislators on hate crime legislation and prosecutions, assisting communities when hate crimes occur, working with social media companies, holocaust education in schools, lots of things)

Or about how Jewish communities are working in general to combat the rising tide of anti-immigrant, anti-LGBTQ, pro-hate groups and sentiment.

But then I said screw it. What do you WANT to see them do? Are you expecting them to react in a way that they aren’t? :confused:
Edit: And if they do rally massive marches, will you complain marches don’t do anything?
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#92

Post by Foggy » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:11 am

Maybe marches don't do anything except let you feel you're making a stand.

I marched against the Vietnam War in the Moratorium in 1969. I carried a cardboard sign with the name of a soldier killed in the war and shouted his name when I walked in front of the White House. I froze my ass off waiting for our bus driver to wake up and come get us after the march. I marched with my cousin Margo and her boyfriend (and I was chatting with Margo yesterday afternoon).

Nixon was watching football and paid no attention to me and my 499,999 friends that day. The war didn't end for another 6 years. But I felt good about it. Still do. And I think maybe that and all the other protests, marches, and yes, riots I was in during those years did help bring the war to an end. I like to think that everything we did back then eventually led, long term, to increasing unpopularity of the war, and eventually forced an end to it.

So I'm not ready to say that marches don't do anything. Long term, maybe they do accomplish things.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#93

Post by voxpopuluxe » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:30 am

DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:47 am
The ADL swore on the memories of murdered millions that they would do everything in their power to stop the rise of the mechanisms, propaganda and ideology that led to that atrocity, and it is my firm opinion that in this goal they have failed miserably by buying into the same milquetoast liberal platitudes of civility and politeness and inclusiveness.
I don't disagree that a reluctance on the part of press and liberal political figures to admit just how bad things are and an insistance by these institutions on an often empty kind of "civility," has blunted the edge of opposition to rising fascism. I don't think it's unreasonable to scrutinize any organization and to name particular strategies or tactics as ineffective. But criticism in the abstract, detached from any particular criticisms and absent any recommendations to do otherwise is just feel-good moralism and as platitudinous as any bromide about brotherhood or civility. And in the aftermath of a crime like this one it isn't a good look to say "This wouldn't have happened if the ADL was doing its job!"
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#94

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:28 pm

Can someone explain to me why my questions are troubling? Why question boils down to why there wasn't a greater pushback against the obvious anti-semitism that was creeping into mainstream GOP politics back in 2016. I'm going to keep asking that question. I take great offense to the notion that I am somehow blaming the ADL for the actions of a sick bigot. You need to stop framing it that way.
Up until fairly recently, American politics had safeguards in place to prevent the toxicity of the fringe from entering into the mainstream. in 2016, those safeguards failed, and they continue to fail. You can try to frame it as me blaming the victims, which I am not, but I will continue to point out that failure so long as it continues. The Metropolitan Republican Club can invite members of the skinhead group 211 Boot Boys to their organization with little political fallout. My question is why, and how do you fix that?

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#95

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:30 pm

You continue to moan and whine about people not engaging in more protest, yet you won't - or can't - say when, where, and what steps you have taken to engage in protest. And this ain't the first time.

Are you walking the walk, or just talking the talk? And if it's the "talk" one, why should we take the things you say seriously when you aren't invested in them enough to actually put them into practice yourself?
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#96

Post by kate520 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:39 pm

Also, too, boiled frogs seldom march.

You can go back a very long way to see how cooked we’ve become.

-Why didn’t anyone march when Reagan dumped the fairness doctrine? That seems to me to draw a direct line to we are now.

-Why didn’t anyone protest Limbaugh and Savage Wiener and all the other right wing, daily talking point screamers when they took to the airwaves to re-make Democrats into demons?

- Why didn’t anyone take to the streets when BushCo began carving away at our right to peaceable assembly by creating designated protest zones? 😏 Beating and arresting people for saying mean things to them in public?

-Why didn’t we take to the streets over Whitewater, such an obviously partisan exercise in righteous indignation - with many partisans having affairs at the exact moment they made his peccadillos out to be the biggest sin EVAR - come ON, did our children really need this to be front and center every day for two years? But they never do think of the children, do they? Only the fetus. Why didn’t we march then?

Dmitri, go ahead, organize a protest. Then come back and report. What were the obstacles? How many came? Was it a local or national news story?

What is it you’re REALLY trying (and failing) to accuse us of? Thoughts and prayers?
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#97

Post by TollandRCR » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:39 pm

I have the same concern as Mike D. I do not see what you want done apart from a full page ad. I do not think Dotus would be influenced by such an ad or by a huge march. He is truly evil.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#98

Post by Foggy » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:40 pm

I don't know about DmitryNotPetra, but I'm not Jewish, much less a Jewish leader. If I tried to organize a mass protest against antisemitism, I don't think I'd have much success. Are you saying he should do that?

What if he lives in a rural area? What does he have to do to make him eligible to express his opinion that Jewish leaders should organize protests against antisemitsm? I'd like to see some major protests against antisemitism myself. I'd like to participate in something like that.

But I can't be the one to organize it. And marching all by myself doesn't seem productive.

It's a :pickle:

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#99

Post by TollandRCR » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:45 pm

I think the most productive thing that North Carolina can do is educate the young. You have fine universities — not just the big ones but also small private ones. It will be slow and not dramatic, but it might make a difference.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#100

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:21 pm

Foggy wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:40 pm
I don't know about DmitryNotPetra, but I'm not Jewish, much less a Jewish leader. If I tried to organize a mass protest against antisemitism, I don't think I'd have much success. Are you saying he should do that?

What if he lives in a rural area? What does he have to do to make him eligible to express his opinion that Jewish leaders should organize protests against antisemitsm? I'd like to see some major protests against antisemitism myself. I'd like to participate in something like that.

But I can't be the one to organize it. And marching all by myself doesn't seem productive.

It's a :pickle:
Foggy, if this was Dmitry's first time at this particular rodeo, I'd be with you 100%. But it ain't.

There was also a prior thread where he heavily criticized the lack of counter-protests at right-wing rallies. So it's not just that it's the lack of protests against antisemitism that's bothering him, it's the absence of lots of other protests. Given that his displeasure at the lack of protests seems to be broad-spectrum, and not just restricted to this issue, I think the question about his own involvement is a fair one.

For clarity: He's absolutely eligible to express his opinion on who should be having protests, how many people should be attending protests, and so on regardless of his own participation in protests. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest otherwise, and his answer to my question would have no bearing on that. The question's not relevant to his right to express his opinion, but I think it is relevant to assessing his opinion.
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