No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

DmitriNotPetra
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#101

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:47 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:21 pm
Foggy wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:40 pm
I don't know about DmitryNotPetra, but I'm not Jewish, much less a Jewish leader. If I tried to organize a mass protest against antisemitism, I don't think I'd have much success. Are you saying he should do that?

What if he lives in a rural area? What does he have to do to make him eligible to express his opinion that Jewish leaders should organize protests against antisemitsm? I'd like to see some major protests against antisemitism myself. I'd like to participate in something like that.

But I can't be the one to organize it. And marching all by myself doesn't seem productive.

It's a :pickle:
Foggy, if this was Dmitry's first time at this particular rodeo, I'd be with you 100%. But it ain't.

There was also a prior thread where he heavily criticized the lack of counter-protests at right-wing rallies. So it's not just that it's the lack of protests against antisemitism that's bothering him, it's the absence of lots of other protests. Given that his displeasure at the lack of protests seems to be broad-spectrum, and not just restricted to this issue, I think the question about his own involvement is a fair one.

For clarity: He's absolutely eligible to express his opinion on who should be having protests, how many people should be attending protests, and so on regardless of his own participation in protests. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest otherwise, and his answer to my question would have no bearing on that. The question's not relevant to his right to express his opinion, but I think it is relevant to assessing his opinion.
You're right. I did wonder aloud why there hadn't been a coordinated protest inside one of the Hillbilly Nuremburg rallies. Then I did state my feelings that the organizations and groups chartered to protect against anti-semitism were less than effective. You got me.
You know, first I was accused of attacking the victim because I stated the lukewarm responses to institutionalized bigotry. Then I was interrogated about my own actions because of it. So, if I was a victim myself of anti-semitic attacks, wouldn't you be also attacking the victim? Spoiler alert: I have been a victim of anti-semitic attacks, online, in person verbally, in person physically. So there's that.
Anyway, this is rapidly becoming moot in this evolving news cycle, as now a sitting President of the United States has publicly threatened unarmed civilians with a military response, and we'll probably soon having an alt-right lovefest as immigrant children are shot dead by US soldiers, on US soil, in violation of just about every law we have on the books, and when that happens, I will again suggest the organizations chartered to fight against hatred and bigotry were less than effective when it mattered.
Boiling the frog as it were, Fox News can excuse the pipe bombs, calls for unity and peace and love and tolerance will drown out the lives lost in the synagogue, and when those uncensored pictures of Honduran children shot dead on US Soil get sent to you as a a meme, well, I'll just have to wonder what's next.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#102

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:09 pm

DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:47 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:21 pm
Foggy wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:40 pm
I don't know about DmitryNotPetra, but I'm not Jewish, much less a Jewish leader. If I tried to organize a mass protest against antisemitism, I don't think I'd have much success. Are you saying he should do that?

What if he lives in a rural area? What does he have to do to make him eligible to express his opinion that Jewish leaders should organize protests against antisemitsm? I'd like to see some major protests against antisemitism myself. I'd like to participate in something like that.

But I can't be the one to organize it. And marching all by myself doesn't seem productive.

It's a :pickle:
Foggy, if this was Dmitry's first time at this particular rodeo, I'd be with you 100%. But it ain't.

There was also a prior thread where he heavily criticized the lack of counter-protests at right-wing rallies. So it's not just that it's the lack of protests against antisemitism that's bothering him, it's the absence of lots of other protests. Given that his displeasure at the lack of protests seems to be broad-spectrum, and not just restricted to this issue, I think the question about his own involvement is a fair one.

For clarity: He's absolutely eligible to express his opinion on who should be having protests, how many people should be attending protests, and so on regardless of his own participation in protests. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest otherwise, and his answer to my question would have no bearing on that. The question's not relevant to his right to express his opinion, but I think it is relevant to assessing his opinion.
You're right. I did wonder aloud why there hadn't been a coordinated protest inside one of the Hillbilly Nuremburg rallies. Then I did state my feelings that the organizations and groups chartered to protect against anti-semitism were less than effective. You got me.
You know, first I was accused of attacking the victim because I stated the lukewarm responses to institutionalized bigotry. Then I was interrogated about my own actions because of it. So, if I was a victim myself of anti-semitic attacks, wouldn't you be also attacking the victim? Spoiler alert: I have been a victim of anti-semitic attacks, online, in person verbally, in person physically. So there's that.
Anyway, this is rapidly becoming moot in this evolving news cycle, as now a sitting President of the United States has publicly threatened unarmed civilians with a military response, and we'll probably soon having an alt-right lovefest as immigrant children are shot dead by US soldiers, on US soil, in violation of just about every law we have on the books, and when that happens, I will again suggest the organizations chartered to fight against hatred and bigotry were less than effective when it mattered.
Boiling the frog as it were, Fox News can excuse the pipe bombs, calls for unity and peace and love and tolerance will drown out the lives lost in the synagogue, and when those uncensored pictures of Honduran children shot dead on US Soil get sent to you as a a meme, well, I'll just have to wonder what's next.
To quote the legendary reporter Danny Concannon, "I'm sure that was an answer to some question, Mr. President. It just wasn't the answer to mine."

My question was where and when you have protested.

If you're going to criticize others for not doing enough, it's a fair question. And I think that's true whether you're criticizing members of this board or large organizations. Decisions get made by those who show up. That's as true when it comes to organizations as it is politics.

That's one of the reasons Foggy is my hero. He's been busting his ass - on a busted foot - to try and make some change.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#103

Post by RoadScholar » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:09 pm

I second that emotion.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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DmitriNotPetra
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#104

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:29 pm

The last protest I was at was when they were shoving children into cages. I mean, now that they're read to use the military to shoot those same children, it seems moot, but there's your answer. As for protests against the rising anti-semitism back in 2016, well, I wasn't part of any protests BECAUSE THERE WEREN'T ANY, which is my point. If back in summer of 2016 there was a group to protest the then-strong Breitbart white nationalist arm, I would have been there, trust me. But there wasn't. I was told to take the high road. I was told to donate and vote.
But hey, I tell you what. I'll keep my schedule clear, I have some flight miles. When there's that massive, organized protest against Trump appearing in Pittsburgh, you go ahead and let me know. But my Crystal Ball here tells me that no such thing will occur, and we'll get to watch as Trump goes off script and repeats the exact same conspiracy theories the murderer himself used to commit the murders, at the funerals of the victims. But keep me in the loop, you know.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#105

Post by realist » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:38 pm

DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:29 pm
The last protest I was at was when they were shoving children into cages. I mean, now that they're read to use the military to shoot those same children, it seems moot, but there's your answer. As for protests against the rising anti-semitism back in 2016, well, I wasn't part of any protests BECAUSE THERE WEREN'T ANY, which is my point. If back in summer of 2016 there was a group to protest the then-strong Breitbart white nationalist arm, I would have been there, trust me. But there wasn't. I was told to take the high road. I was told to donate and vote.
But hey, I tell you what. I'll keep my schedule clear, I have some flight miles. When there's that massive, organized protest against Trump appearing in Pittsburgh, you go ahead and let me know. But my Crystal Ball here tells me that no such thing will occur, and we'll get to watch as Trump goes off script and repeats the exact same conspiracy theories the murderer himself used to commit the murders, at the funerals of the victims. But keep me in the loop, you know.
There are many ways to “protest” which of course include marching. Many participate in many ways.

If the marching type is your cup of tea and you feel they are effective in today’s world, why, instead of complaining that there are none which suit you, why don’t you organize one. Or some. Just sayin’.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#106

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:36 am

I hope none of you got whiplash from that “You’re blaming the victim!” To “You, personally should have organized a protest.” shift. About....FACE!

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#107

Post by Estiveo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:43 am

Geez, lighten up Francis.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#108

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:05 am

Estiveo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:43 am
Geez, lighten up Francis.
I know your reaction to all of this is probably "Meh," but some of us have stronger reactions to hate based murders.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#109

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:41 am

So CNN comes out and says the obvious, that Fox News ran with the same propaganda the Pittsburgh murderer ran with for days leading up to the attack. So a major news network is calling it out, there's going to be some action now, right? An organized mass boycott of Fox sponsors, mass protests outside of Fox's studios, that will all happen now, right? Right? "Fox News Kills Jews" that would make a good chant, so I'm sure, I am so sure, that I'll see it, RIGHT? Come on, all this "activism," that's gotta mean something...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/29/media/pi ... index.html

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#110

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:14 am

If you think it's that important, make it happen. Orlylicious can probably give you some advice on how to try and work up support on social media.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#111

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:03 am

Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:14 am
If you think it's that important, make it happen. Orlylicious can probably give you some advice on how to try and work up support on social media.
Yeah, I do think 11 dead from an extremist spouting the same propaganda a major media conglomerate traffics in is like, totes important and stuff. But then I wouldn’t just be facing the wrath of the right-wing machine, I’d be faced with the liberal elite, again breathlessly discussing atrocity and analyzing the people who try to stop it, safe in their detached bubble of academic intellectualism. Pipe bombs and AR-15s and speeding cars I can handle, but I’m not sure I could deal with my aged grandmother reading Frank Bruni and Paul Krugman’s breezy analysis and sardonic quips about the first amendment, civility, and decorum if I projected “Fox News Kills Jews” onto the side of Fox News’ headquarters or something. There are far simpler ways to endanger ones life from the far-right AND get the patented Ivory Tower eye roll all at once. All I need to do is cross post something to Fogbow AND Infowars.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#112

Post by RoadScholar » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:21 am

Jeez, Dmitri... is there anybody you don’t treat with sarcasm and contempt?
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#113

Post by voxpopuluxe » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:26 am

DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:03 am
Yeah, I do think 11 dead from an extremist spouting the same propaganda a major media conglomerate traffics in is like, totes important and stuff. But then I wouldn’t just be facing the wrath of the right-wing machine, I’d be faced with the liberal elite, again breathlessly discussing atrocity and analyzing the people who try to stop it, safe in their detached bubble of academic intellectualism.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#114

Post by Estiveo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:42 am

DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:05 am
Estiveo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:43 am
Geez, lighten up Francis.
I know your reaction to all of this is probably "Meh," but some of us have stronger reactions to hate based murders.
Silly wabbit, my mehs are reserved for your righteous indignation that people are, rightly, telling you to put up or shut up. For that, yeah, I'll give you a meh.

I might react differently if I thought you were sincere, but I don't. I think you are a black hole of insincerety who would tank a potential visit from the Great Pumpkin just by setting foot in an otherwise sincere pumpkin patch.

Meh.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#115

Post by fierceredpanda » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:57 am

Assuming Dmitri is sincere, his theory is basically that we need to embrace fascist tactics and strategy in order to combat fascism. Or, to paraphrase that infamous public relations line from Vietnam, we need to destroy democratic institutions in order to save them.

No. The only way to defend democracy is to practice democracy. Every dictatorship in history started off saying, "Listen, we want to make things more democratic, but the other side is so awful, and we are so righteous, that you will have to trust us to rule unaccountably for just a little while until we defeat the enemy and things have settled down." And then things never settle down. Like Orwell's O'Brien said of the Party, "One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship." Embracing authoritarian and violent means inevitably results in authoritarian and violent ends.

But what do I know? I'm just an ivory tower intellectual who tries to keep people out of prison and moonlights as a consultant to progressive candidates. Dmitri is obviously out putting his rhetoric into action and forming a cell of his neo-Leninist revolutionary vanguard to save us all from the fascists. Right?

Somehow, I think not.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#116

Post by RoadScholar » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:50 am

Fielding Melish:

-At last this country can finally bask in the sunshine of a true democracy.
Where no man is better than the next and there's equal opportunity;
Respect for law and order.

El Presidente:

- Right now, l am the law.

Fielding Melish:

-But soon we'll hold elections, let the people choose their leaders
and you can voluntarily step down and return to your simple farming---

What's the matter? You look glassy-eyed.

El Presidente:

-These people are peasants. They are too ignorant to vote.

Fielding Melish:

-But they have common sense.

El Presidente:

- l am the ruler of this country. There will be no elections until l decree it.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#117

Post by Addie » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:29 pm

The Guardian OpEd
Donald Trump borrows from the old tricks of fascism

The governing principle of the Trump administration is total irresponsibility, a claim of innocence from a position of power, something which happens to be an old fascist trick. As we see in the president’s reactions to American rightwing terrorism, he will always claim victimhood for himself and shift blame to the actual victims. As we see in the motivations of the terrorists themselves, and in the long history of fascism, this maneuver can lead to murder.

The Nazis claimed a monopoly on victimhood. Mein Kampf includes a lengthy pout about how Jews and other non-Germans made Hitler’s life as a young man in the Habsburg monarchy difficult. After stormtroopers attacked others in Germany in the early 1930s, they made a great fuss if one of their own was injured. The “Horst Wessel Song,” recalling a single Nazi who was killed, was on the lips of Germans who killed millions of people. The second world war was for the Nazis self-defense against “global Jewry”.

The idea that the powerful must be coddled arose in a setting that recalls the United States of today. The Habsburg monarchy of Hitler’s youth was a multinational country with democratic institutions and a free press. Some Germans, members of the dominant nationality, felt threatened because others could vote and publish. Hitler was an extreme example of this kind of sentiment. Today, some white Americans are similarly threatened by presence of others in institutions they think of as their own. Among the targets of the accused pipe bomber were four women, five blacks, and two Jews. Just as (some) Germans were the only serious national problem within the Habsburg monarchy, so today are (some) white Americans the only serious threat to their own republic.

Hitler formulated his version of total irresponsibility after the disaster of the first world war, which destroyed the Habsburg monarchy and fragmented its German ally. He found an explanation for the disaster that spared the ego of the German nationalists who had supported it. The world was a struggle, Hitler maintained, among superior and inferior races. If superior Germans were somehow defeated in a war, this only proved that an invisible power stood behind the visible facts: global Jewry.

According to Hitler, Jews inculcated ideas, such as that of individual rights, that drew people away from their natural bloodlust. The notion that Jews are responsible for civil rights or immigrant protection, one that seems to have motivated the mass shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, is an example of this Hitlerian way of thinking. Since Jews are supposedly responsible for rights, they are blamed when people beyond the dominant group exercise rights. Because the spread of the norm of rights takes place in the mind, the only response, thought Hitler, was to remove Jews from the planet. The accused Pittsburgh murderer (“all Jews must die”) seems to have thought in just this way.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#118

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:44 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:57 am
Assuming Dmitri is sincere, his theory is basically that we need to embrace fascist tactics and strategy in order to combat fascism. Or, to paraphrase that infamous public relations line from Vietnam, we need to destroy democratic institutions in order to save them.

No. The only way to defend democracy is to practice democracy. Every dictatorship in history started off saying, "Listen, we want to make things more democratic, but the other side is so awful, and we are so righteous, that you will have to trust us to rule unaccountably for just a little while until we defeat the enemy and things have settled down." And then things never settle down. Like Orwell's O'Brien said of the Party, "One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship." Embracing authoritarian and violent means inevitably results in authoritarian and violent ends.

But what do I know? I'm just an ivory tower intellectual who tries to keep people out of prison and moonlights as a consultant to progressive candidates. Dmitri is obviously out putting his rhetoric into action and forming a cell of his neo-Leninist revolutionary vanguard to save us all from the fascists. Right?

Somehow, I think not.
And predictably, merely projecting the words "Fox News Kills Jews" on the side of the Fox News building is decried as "fascist tactics" by the liberal elite I mentioned. Even as 11 people are being put in the ground, stating something in a hyperbolic and ineloquent manner is just TOO MUCH.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#119

Post by Estiveo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:50 pm

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#120

Post by realist » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:12 pm

:deadhorse:
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#121

Post by Addie » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:13 pm

KDKA
Thousands Gather In Squirrel Hill For Protest, Turn Backs On President Trump’s Motorcade

PITTSBURGH (KDKA) — Thousands of people gathered in Squirrel Hill Tuesday for two protests in opposition to President Donald Trump’s visit to the City of Pittsburgh, following the shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue.

Tens of thousands of people signed an online petition against the visit after it was first announced over the weekend, in the hours after the mass shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue that claimed 11 lives. ...

The first protest got underway at the corner of Darlington Road and Murray Avenue. Protesters began gathering at 3 p.m. for the “No Antisemitism, No White Supremacy, No Trump” rally. ...

The second rally got underway at 4 p.m. at the corner of Beechwood Boulevard and Forbes Avenue. It is hosted by Bend the Arc: Pittsburgh, Women’s March on Washington and other organizations.

The “Pittsburgh Loves All Our Neighbors” rally marched up Beechwood Boulevard into the Business District, up Shady Avenue, and made it’s way towards the Tree of Life Synagogue. At one point, Shady Avenue was so crowded, there was no room to move between Northumberland all the way to Forbes.

The two rallies eventually merged together for one big rally. ...

While they could not see President Trump, the protesters did hear the sirens from his motorcade. While it left the area, many of them turned their backs and knelt down as a sign of opposition to him and his policies ...


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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#122

Post by NMgirl » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:25 pm

:like: and :bighug: to Pittsburgh.

Thanks for the news article, Addie. It lifted my spirits.
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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#123

Post by Addie » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:39 pm

Newsweek
Trumps and Jared Kushner Confronted by Thousands of Protesters at Pittsburgh Synagogue: ‘President Hate, Leave Our State!’

President Donald Trump, his wife and first lady Melania Trump, his daughter Ivanka Trump and son-in-law Jared Kushner were greeted by thousands of protesters Tuesday afternoon when they arrived in Pittsburgh to visit the Tree of Life Synagogue where 11 Jewish worshippers were killed by a gunman Saturday.

The Trump family went to pay their respects to victims despite some residents expressing disapproval of the visit and some local and national officials declining to appear with the president and instead support families attending funerals.

About 2,000 protesters, many of them Jewish, marched against the president and chanted, “Words have meaning,” and held signs including one that said, “We build bridges not walls,” according to Reuters. Other signs read, "President Hate, Leave Our State!" and, "Trump, Renounce White Nationalism Now." ...

Another protester, Giulianna Lamanna, donned a green jacket with the words “I REALLY DO CARE, Y DON'T YOU?” as a dig against Melania Trump and the infamous “I REALLY DON’T CARE, DO U?” jacket she wore earlier in the year on a trip to visit migrant children separated from their parents at the southern border. ...

Leaders of the Bend the Arc movement of Jewish people seeking justice read aloud an open letter: “President Trump, you are not welcome in Pittsburgh until you fully denounce white nationalism.”

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#124

Post by Addie » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:09 am

Forward
Trump Attacks ‘Disgraceful’ Pittsburgh Protests In Angry Tweet About Synagogue Bloodbath

A defiant President Trump tweeted Wednesday morning that the sprawling demonstrations against his visit to Pittsburgh in the wake of Saturday’s synagogue massacre were “small” — and denounced coverage of the visit as “disgraceful.”

Showing no signs of toning down his partisan and divisive rhetoric, Trump focused attention on himself in his first statement about his controversial visit to the grieving city.
Melania and I were treated very nicely yesterday in Pittsburgh. The Office of the President was shown great respect on a very sad & solemn day. We were treated so warmly. Small protest was not seen by us, staged far away. The Fake News stories were just the opposite-Disgraceful! pic.twitter.com/9B9HgCF1G9— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 31, 2018
...

Thousands of protesters thronged the Squirrel Hill neighborhood to protest Trump’s visit, the Forward reported. Contrary to Trump’s claim that the protest was “staged far away,” they converged just blocks from where Trump was visiting a memorial to the 11 people killed Saturday, near the Tree of Life synagogue in Squirrel Hill.

It is unclear if Trump’s verb choice — that the protests were “staged” — is an oblique reference to their being orchestrated by his opponents. A popular right-wing conspiracy theory holds that left-wing billionaires, especially the Jewish philanthropist George Soros, pay people to protest Trump and others. Trump has used the verb “staged” in the past in its regular usage.

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Re: No! No! No! Refuse Fascism

#125

Post by Addie » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:59 pm

Democracy Now: Allan Nairn: The U.S. Is Facing Incipient Domestic Fascism, But Rightist Revolution Can Be Stopped

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