Now what?

Tarrant
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Re: Now what?

#26

Post by Tarrant »

My spouse-to-be - a Ph.D. candidate in political science, who has been doing his work on multidimensionalities and the difficulty in polling for such things in races - called this result almost exactly months ago - mostly that the polls, especially in the rust belt, were going to seriously underrepresent Trump's numbers. We were both hoping he'd be wrong, but it was not to be.

So, the question is, what does the Democratic Party do from here? There is a clear disconnect between many traditional Democratic constituencies and the party itself - or, more, that constituency felt there was a disconnect, enough of one to vote for someone like Trump, who at least is talking to them.

This is the US's Brexit, where a group of voters told the establishment of both parties to go jump off a cliff, even if it was to their own detriment.

It's true that there's an element of racism and bigotry involved, but that's not the only thing. You have a swath of traditional Democratic voters that don't believe the Democratic Party cares about them anymore except for their votes and perhaps their money. They see their jobs going away, and moving to other countries, and the US gaining nothing at all - maybe additional GDP, but they don't see any benefit from that. They see people in their communities doing the jobs they used to do. When everybody is doing well, things like racism and xenophobia recede. When they aren't, and there's competition for not many jobs, there's going to be resentment. And they see in the current Democratic Party (embodied by the Clintons) people that care more about a $1T increase in GDP that goes to the top than a $100B increase that might stay more within the country. It doesn't mean it's true, but it is not mere Republican propaganda, as evidenced by Clinton's turnaround on trade and Wall St. that came due to pressure from Sanders.

I recall reading an article about Brexit in which they interviewed some pro-Brexit people who lived in a town whose name I unfortunately can't recall - they said they loved it when a few Polish families moved into the neighborhood. But due to EU freedom of travel rules, more and more moved in, to the point that some of the local British pubs closed and were replaced with ones that catered to the Polish residents. More people moving in meant more competition for jobs, many of which went to the new immigrants. They said they didn't mind having a diverse environment in their town, but the local British population was hurting because of so many immigrants - the number of new jobs didn't cover the number of new people looking for them. So they voted Leave. They said they didn't mind immigrants, but they didn't want their British town to become a Polish one.

Another example - when I was growing up, the local supermarket in our city in Arizona was where practically every local teenager got a job after school, or over the summer. The checkers were usually local moms or seniors, and the stockers and baggers local teenagers. I recall when a neighbor boy, about 6 years my senior, got his summer job there, and was so proud. Six years later, there were no jobs available there - the checkers and baggers and almost all other positions were taken by Latino immigrants. An investigation by the state showed that they were legal workers, most of whom entered the country within the previous decade, often as family of existing residents. There was a lot of resentment in the city, because this was where kids had jobs, and there were lots of local news stories about the dearth of after-school or summer jobs for students, and a lot of "Why is the US letting so many people in to take the jobs we used to have?" I don't blame the store - why take a part-time worker like a student or a mom who can only work during the day when one can get a fully dedicated hire? - but there was a lot of questioning.

In both those examples there are racial and nationalist parts - but are the people motivated by racism? They aren't going to say so, and using a catch-all term like "Bigot" is just going to harden them even further against you. They're going to say they're motivated by economic factors.

Now, it's absolutely true that many of the "ECONOMY IS DOOMED!" things that people believe right now are completely false, fed to them by a media machine that wants to always have a story - after all, the stock market (although tanking now) has been at record highs, and unemployment is at recent lows. I would, however, put some blame on the Democrats for not countering any Republican spin on that - there's a spinelessness there that I just have never been able to understand.

But the Democratic Party has, seemingly, become a party that people recognize as to the left on social issues, but that is in lockstep with the Establishment on financial ones (at least with respect to who benefits). In the UK, the voters rebelled and put Jeremy Corbyn in leadership of the Labour Party, and despite Establishment Labour's repeated attempts to undermine him and even to force another leadership election, he was reelected with a larger mandate. His policies may not be necessarily realizable, but he is at least someone that people feel cares about them and their issues and isn't just going to sell them down the river when the Big Banks come calling with checkbooks open.

We're in for a rough couple of years. I think there needs to be some serious soul-searching within the Democratic Party, and it needs to get the young blood ready for prime time, and, yes, that may mean telling the Big Donors to take a hike to show that they mean business.
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Re: Now what?

#27

Post by Slim Cognito »

Just spit ballin' here (I've been up since 6 am yesterday, too upset to sleep so take that into consideration before responding too harshly.)

Re: a quick replace for Ocare - I don't suppose there's a snowball's chance in hell republicans might wake up and realize Medicare for All would be a fairly easy option? Even if you had to use Medicare Advantage, their insurance company buds would be happy.

don't know how the premiums would be paid, maybe the same as Ocare, with supplements synced up at tax time?
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phelana
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Re: Now what?

#28

Post by phelana »

Slim Cognito wrote:Just spit ballin' here (I've been up since 6 am yesterday, too upset to sleep so take that into consideration before responding too harshly.)

Re: a quick replace for Ocare - I don't suppose there's a snowball's chance in hell republicans might wake up and realize Medicare for All would be a fairly easy option? Even if you had to use Medicare Advantage, their insurance company buds would be happy.

don't know how the premiums would be paid, maybe the same as Ocare, with supplements synced up at tax time?
Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants if the Republicans actually brought in a form of universal healthcare.
Beatrice: Sigh no more, ladies, sigh no more. Men were deceivers ever. One foot in sea and one on shore, to one thing constant never. Then sigh not so but let them go and be you blithe and bonny, converting all your sounds of woe into hey nonny nonny.
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RoadScholar
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Re: Now what?

#29

Post by RoadScholar »

Slim Cognito wrote:Just spit ballin' here (I've been up since 6 am yesterday, too upset to sleep so take that into consideration before responding too harshly.)

Re: a quick replace for Ocare - I don't suppose there's a snowball's chance in hell republicans might wake up and realize Medicare for All would be a fairly easy option? Even if you had to use Medicare Advantage, their insurance company buds would be happy.

don't know how the premiums would be paid, maybe the same as Ocare, with supplements synced up at tax time?
No way. Brutality and revenge are the order of the day. Take this to the bank: "Fuck polar bears and solar energy. Fuck every Muslim, fuck uppity women, fuck gays and lesbians, fuck Mexicans, too fucking bad if you can't afford insurance... go off someplace and die already. I can now discriminate against anyone I don't like, and if they threaten me I can shoot them."

Those people are now in charge. Really.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Now what?

#30

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

From first to worst in the blink of an eye.
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Re: Now what?

#31

Post by Volkonski »

Considering what Trump may do to US trade policy, the UK should scrape the Brexit and stay in the EU.

NATO should oust the USA and prepare to deal with Russia on its own.

The Ukraine should prepare for annexation by Russia.

People in eastern Asia and Oceania should learn to speak Mandarin Chinese.

Rural white Americans should prepare themselves for many broken Trump promises.

Hillary Clinton should seek asylum overseas.

Cuba should prepare for a renewed trade embargo.

Canada should build a wall along its southern border.

I should get out of the house before Mrs. V's sighing drives me crazy. ;)
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PaulG
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Re: Now what?

#32

Post by PaulG »

I keep thinking of prohibition. (I read "Last Call" and now everything looks like prohibition to me) Anyway, the thing was, it was such a stupid idea that normal people wanted nothing to do with it. They walked away, leaving the controls in the hands of the inept, the crazy and the corrupt. That's where we are now. I don't think "that guy" (I won't type his name) is long for the presidency, I think impeachment is inevitable, but where does that leave us? Last time, we ended up with the Mafia, Teapot Dome, and an immigration policy based on turning back the demographic clock to 1890. We still live with two and one is a popular genre of books and hit TV series.

Well, I plan to vanish into a fantasy world of my own devising. It may take a while though as I have nothing ready to go.
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Re: Now what?

#33

Post by jemcanada »

I can't even read the news. I feel like I've been punched in the stomach. I can only imagine how you must all feel. I thank all of the Fogbow members for all the work they did to try to prevent this nightmare. If you can stand the cold, come join us up here in Canada. Or stay and keep fighting for your country. Either way, my blessings and best wishes to all of you.

Love Jemcanada
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RTH10260
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Re: Now what?

#34

Post by RTH10260 »

Imagine Donald Trump With The Nuclear Codes


from August 2016
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Reality Check
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Re: Now what?

#35

Post by Reality Check »

Arthur Goldwag:

Hate Wins
"“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”

Heather Heyer, November 2016
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phaseolus
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Re: Now what?

#36

Post by phaseolus »

Tarrant wrote:
:snippity:

Another example - when I was growing up, the local supermarket in our city in Arizona was where practically every local teenager got a job after school, or over the summer. The checkers were usually local moms or seniors, and the stockers and baggers local teenagers. I recall when a neighbor boy, about 6 years my senior, got his summer job there, and was so proud. Six years later, there were no jobs available there - the checkers and baggers and almost all other positions were taken by Latino immigrants. An investigation by the state showed that they were legal workers, most of whom entered the country within the previous decade, often as family of existing residents. There was a lot of resentment in the city, because this was where kids had jobs, and there were lots of local news stories about the dearth of after-school or summer jobs for students, and a lot of "Why is the US letting so many people in to take the jobs we used to have?" I don't blame the store - why take a part-time worker like a student or a mom who can only work during the day when one can get a fully dedicated hire? - but there was a lot of questioning.

:snippity:
I think what's required of any political party that a.) wants to do right by their constituents and b.) isn't a friggin' church with inviolable dogmas is find thoughtful and workable answers to the question of what to do about globalization. Transportation is easy these days and capital, labor, jobs, production facilities move across borders unfettered.

In my lifetime, from my perch here in the American rust belt, I've seen manufacturing jobs hopscotch from the cities to the exurbs to Japan and Taiwan and the 'sun belt' to China to developing nations. African-Americans, Union members, and non-union workers have all seen their fortunes fade in their turn. I suspect part of Trump's rise is a result of this thing suddenly becoming a problem when white people discovered it's happening to them.

(And, yeah, I realize I haven't mentioned automation, that's only for simplicity's sake. I'm goofing off at work, here, I don't have all day...)

The Republican response to all this is apparently "put the genie back in the bottle" plus "moar tax cuts", and that's going to fail miserably. A successful antithesis is going to have to know how to create an economy that has opportunities for everyone to succeed and thrive, and be inspiring enough to convince voters that we all advance or fall together -- if the urban centers do better, that doesn't come at the expense of suburbs; when black lives really do matter, it doesn't imply that white people are going to get shot instead.
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Dandelion
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Re: Now what?

#37

Post by Dandelion »

Hi All,

I've been away for a few days in an hospital dealing with my heart function issues, and got to miss most of the ending of a long election cycle.

So, this is for any and all who need a step out of the shocking news,
from Wait But Why
http://waitbutwhy.com/2016/11/its-going ... 1de7c52259
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Sluffy1
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Re: Now what?

#38

Post by Sluffy1 »

"RoadScholar"
No way. Brutality and revenge are the order of the day. Take this to the bank: "Fuck polar bears and solar energy. Fuck every Muslim, fuck uppity women, fuck gays and lesbians, fuck Mexicans, too fucking bad if you can't afford insurance... go off someplace and die already. I can now discriminate against anyone I don't like, and if they threaten me I can shoot them."

Those people are now in charge. Really.
:yeah:

... I look forward to Putin releasing the dirt he has on Trump.
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MsDaisy
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Re: Now what?

#39

Post by MsDaisy »

RoadScholar wrote:
Slim Cognito wrote:Just spit ballin' here (I've been up since 6 am yesterday, too upset to sleep so take that into consideration before responding too harshly.)

Re: a quick replace for Ocare - I don't suppose there's a snowball's chance in hell republicans might wake up and realize Medicare for All would be a fairly easy option? Even if you had to use Medicare Advantage, their insurance company buds would be happy.

don't know how the premiums would be paid, maybe the same as Ocare, with supplements synced up at tax time?
No way. Brutality and revenge are the order of the day. Take this to the bank: "Fuck polar bears and solar energy. Fuck every Muslim, fuck uppity women, fuck gays and lesbians, fuck Mexicans, too fucking bad if you can't afford insurance... go off someplace and die already. I can now discriminate against anyone I don't like, and if they threaten me I can shoot them."

Those people are now in charge. Really.
AND fuck all the haters who elected Trump too. Every one of them will get exactly what they deserve. No healthcare unless they can pay, no SS, no disability, no protection from Wall Street, no nothing.
Birfers are toast
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Butterfly Bilderberg
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Re: Now what?

#40

Post by Butterfly Bilderberg »

Reality Check wrote:Arthur Goldwag:

Hate Wins
This:
[H]e was a vanity candidate and he’ll be a vanity president. Most of the work of governance will be left to the right wing hanger-ons who flatter him the most and they will do their very worst. There’s not going to be a wall, he’s not going to restore smoke stack industries, or fix the cities.Taxes will be cut, environmental protections will be rolled back, and terrible judges will be appointed to the courts. Undocumented immigrants will be deported at the same pace that they were during the Obama administration. The world will be a little safer for ignorant, backwards-looking white people. Globalized capitalism will march on apace, wealth will continue to flow to the top, and the ice caps will keep melting.
What I predict is a continuation of the march toward a post-American world. Trump doesn't have the respect of Western European and Asian leaders, and he won't have their cooperation. Those nations will continue to move forward and expand their influence while the United States becomes isolated and less influential.

Trump cannot stop the globalization of the economy.

The good news is that the Clintons will continue to enjoy the respect of world leaders. They will be our nation's real ambassadors.
"Pity the nation that acclaims the bully as hero,
and that deems the glittering conqueror bountiful."
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Re: Now what?

#41

Post by YellowMustard »

I still don't know what to say. I haven't spoken to anyone about it today. I live in a deeply red state and I don't know who I could even talk to about it. I had to tell my daughter that trump won this morning. She's 11, she doesn't understand what it means. I'm not so sure I do either.
----IANAL----

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Re: Now what?

#42

Post by Volkonski »

It hasn't happened often but there have been a few times in history when seeming incompetent ill-prepared and/or temperamentally unsuited persons were put in positions of power and surprisingly did quite well. Think of the Roman Emperor Claudius and England's King Henry V.

This probably will not be one of those times. However, with all the responsibility on them, the Republicans may start to behave more responsibly. Whatever goes wrong, the blame will be on them.
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Karen Walker
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Re: Now what?

#43

Post by Karen Walker »

I woke up this morning and for about 5 seconds I believed I had awoken from a nightmare. What happened last night was just a bad dream. I felt a rush of relief until reality quickly set in.

I browsed the news & Twitter until I couldn't stomach it any longer. I'm scared. I'm sad. I'm angry. I feel guilty for my own emotions compared to the families who will be torn apart, people of colour who will be jailed, assaulted & killed, people who will die without healthcare...

My mind is spinning imagining his cabinet & those who will be writing legislation to strip civil liberties, destroy our environment, enable dictators, and cause economic destruction & death globally. They will control all branches of government, law enforcement, the courts and most state governments.

Forget about "congress keeping him in check". They will be writing & cashing the checks on the backs of the most vulnerable. It won't affect them. They got theirs. They'll be fine.

I've tried to find a silver lining. I've tried to convince myself that something can be done to stop them even in 2018. I can't find it.

I find myself engaging in fantasy that the CIA & our intelligence allies will be able to protect us from his presidency before he is even inaugurated. How? I don't know. They know he is dangerous! They know Putin is pulling the strings!

I think I need to take a break from all social media & the news for awhile (at least a week). Y'all keep the lights on. I'll be back when I'm feeling better.
:( Hugs to everyone.
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Princess foofypants
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Re: Now what?

#44

Post by Princess foofypants »

Gnarly Goat wrote:This is an incredibly rough morning for all of us but I hope can step through the 5 stages of grieving quickly so we can focus on organizing and working on 2018 mid-terms.
Exactly. We don't agree with the results of the election but we accept it as gracefully as possible and we work our tails off to make sure that the progress that has been made in the last eight years has not been in vain. Now is not the time to mope or play ostrich. Now it is imperative that we fight the good fight even harder. I will be fighting fairly and politely but make no mistake, I will be fighting for what I believe in.
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Re: Now what?

#45

Post by MN-Skeptic »

Dandelion wrote:Hi All,

I've been away for a few days in an hospital dealing with my heart function issues, and got to miss most of the ending of a long election cycle.

So, this is for any and all who need a step out of the shocking news,
from Wait But Why
http://waitbutwhy.com/2016/11/its-going ... 1de7c52259
Thanks. I really needed that. I've shared it on Facebook just now.

It's difficult when you have friends and relatives you love who supported Hillary, and friends and relatives you love who supported Trump. They are all good people. Sigh.
Joe Biden: "Wearing masks is not a political statement. It's a scientific imperative."

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Volkonski
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Re: Now what?

#46

Post by Volkonski »

A view from Britain.

We cannot afford to have illusions about Trump

https://infacts.org/cannot-afford-illusions-trump/
Pretty well everything that Donald Trump said in the course of his campaign about foreign and external economic policy has been contrary to the policies of our own government and to Britain’s national interests. He may not be as good as his word but we should have no illusions.

Trump has expressed lack of commitment towards NATO, which inevitably weakens the deterrent capacity of the Alliance. He seeks a cosy relationship with Vladimir Putin, who regards and treats NATO as his adversary and who has ridden roughshod over the post-Cold War settlement in Europe by seizing Crimea and meddling in Ukraine.

He has spoken about Islam and Muslims in terms which can only help Islamic State and Al Qaeda to recruit more terrorists. He has suggested that Japan and South Korea could defend themselves by acquiring nuclear weapons, which would destroy the Nuclear Non- Proliferation Treaty. He has said he would junk the agreement between Iran and the P 5 + 1 (the UN Security Council permanent members – China, France, Russia, the UK and the US – plus Germany), which could well lead to another war in the Middle East.

He has said he would apply substantial tariffs to Chinese exports which would in all likelihood set off a trade war and drive a coach and horses through World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules. He intends to pursue protectionist trade policies and to back out of the North American Free Trade Agreement and the Trans-Pacific Partnership. He is unlikely to be enthusiastic about the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Volkonski
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Re: Now what?

#47

Post by Volkonski »

Brexit Briefing: What Trump’s victory means for Britain
US election should prompt some serious soul searching about UK’s place in the world


https://www.ft.com/content/1632b2c6-a67 ... 899e8bd9d1
Brexiters will also hope there is now something to cheer on the trade front. President Obama placed Britain at “the back of the queue” in doing a US-UK trade deal, a line that would have been continued by Hillary Clinton. Many Brexiters hope that, having lauded Britain’s departure from the EU repeatedly, Mr Trump will now offer speedy preferential treatment to Britain — even if this fails to appreciate just how hostile he is to free trade.

The difficulty for Britain comes in the area of European security. It is still too early to say what kind of president Mr Trump will be, or whether he will be loyal to his campaign rhetoric. But it is clear that he has little commitment to the Nato alliance. More worryingly, he seems happy to accommodate, and may even collaborate with, Russian president Vladimir Putin. This creates significant doubts about whether the new US president would stand by Nato’s Article 5 commitment to support eastern European nations under attack and the European wing of the alliance more generally.

For Mrs May, this presents a conundrum. On the one hand, Mr Trump’s election ought to be the moment when the UK shifts closer to France and Germany, pledging to deepen security co-operation and Europe’s commitment to a rules-based international order. On the other hand, Britain’s decision to leave the EU — and in particular, Mrs May’s hard ball approach to exit negotiations — have plunged the UK and EU into political and economic conflict.

More generally, Mr Trump’s election should prompt some serious soul searching about the UK’s place in the world. For decades, Britain has tried to act as a transatlantic bridge between the US and Europe, maintaining strong security and intelligence ties with Washington and a healthy trading relationship with Europe’s single market. Today both ends of that bridge are broken and the UK looks worryingly isolated.
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
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Re: Now what?

#48

Post by Volkonski »

Every nation on Earth is thinking about how to deal with Trump's USA.
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
Maisie
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Re: Now what?

#49

Post by Maisie »

Gnarly Goat wrote:This is an incredibly rough morning for all of us but I hope can step through the 5 stages of grieving quickly so we can focus on organizing and working on 2018 mid-terms.
Thank you, I need to be constantly reminded of that.
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Butterfly Bilderberg
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Re: Now what?

#50

Post by Butterfly Bilderberg »

Every nation will move forward, with or without the United States. I see Germany becoming the leader of the NATO allies and India leading the southeast Asian sphere.

Trump cannot bring back manufacturing jobs; he doesn't really grasp microeconomics. He cannot revive a dying coal industry; he doesn't understand macroeconomics. His trade wars will lead to higher prices for goods, loss of markets for American goods, and won't do a damn thing to improve employment or incomes; he doesn't understand global economics. There won't be any trickle down from tax cuts for the wealthy. The 1% will be wealthier in 2020 than they are today. Trump won't be able to defeat terrorism. He won't have any impact on the violent crime rate in Chicago and other large cities.

In four years the GOP base will not be better off economically and probably will be worse off. And they will watch Europe become more influential in global affairs.

Resentment and rage against the establishment will be greater in four years when the Great Orange Hope doesn't deliver.
"Pity the nation that acclaims the bully as hero,
and that deems the glittering conqueror bountiful."
- Kahlil Gibran, The Garden of The Prophet
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