Gen. John Kelly

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#226

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:07 pm

Good for someone to say it, but until Republicans start saying it NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#227

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:28 pm

Sometimes there's a lack of black and white.

Kelly may be completely hateful. He may be a nationalistic bigot. He may hold policy positions on any number of issues that most people find repugnant. He may fully endorse 100% of what most Republicans want to accomplish during this administration.

But under the current cataclysmic state of affairs, none of that disqualifies him from being the (comparably) rational adult in the room.
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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#228

Post by June bug » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:25 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:28 pm
Sometimes there's a lack of black and white.

Kelly may be completely hateful. He may be a nationalistic bigot. He may hold policy positions on any number of issues that most people find repugnant. He may fully endorse 100% of what most Republicans want to accomplish during this administration.

But under the current cataclysmic state of affairs, none of that disqualifies him from being the (comparably) rational adult in the room.
I don't know, Mike. Looked at strictly on a comparative scale, you might possibly be right. Personally, I'm dubious and I base that on his behavior, not his policy positions.

IMO, Kelly came out from the get-go with a clear intent to intimidate his audience and thus stop them asking questions about the whole affair. He began by relating the procedures involved in processing a service person's body in unnecessarily excruciating and harrowing detail.

He claimed to be stunned and outraged that Congresswoman Wilson "listened in" on Trump's phone call, indeed so upset he had to go take a walk in Arlington to calm down. He then proceeded to excoriate the Congresswoman about an unrelated event, his description of which was (later) belied by the evidence. He told told the story angrily and with venom, even throwing in a gratuitously insulting remark about her.

He finished by proudly displaying a sort of pitying condescension toward anyone who hasn't served in the military. In fact, he went so far as to refuse to take questions from anyone without some sort of connection to a Gold Star family member.

Since then, he's not only not backed away from any of that, he's doubled down. (See Sanders' statement that Kelly witnessed Wilson "grandstanding" outside of the video.)

Exactly none of that strikes me as the behavior of an even (comparably) rational adult.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#229

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:34 pm

I'm largely in agreement with you regarding his behavior. But I stand by my prior statement. 45 is literally that bad.
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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#230

Post by June bug » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:36 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:34 pm
I'm largely in agreement with you regarding his behavior. But I stand by my prior statement. 45 is literally that bad.
I get you loud and clear on that one, Mike!

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#231

Post by Suranis » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:29 am

I think the real result of the Kelly fiasco is that people have finally twigged that there is no rational adult in the White house to hold back the raging toddler who thinks he is Baron Harkkonen.

I remember that people thought it would be Ivanka and Jared who would do it. then we finally twigged that they were actually blithering subservient idiots not even capable of pulling on their slave collars occasionally. Then people bounced around thinking Priebus or other people were the adult who was pushing the Prat in chief tords rationality, then they finally settled on Kelly as he was a GENERAL *choirs of angels sing*

Now we finally have clicked to the hard reality that there is no-one pushing the guy to rationality, all they can do is damp down the disasters a little. And that's basically even more horrifying than saying hello to Cuthulu.
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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#232

Post by Volkonski » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:33 am


If, by appearing on Laura Ingraham’s show on Monday night, John F. Kelly was trying to do damage control after the indictments of Trump associates earlier in the day, it did not work.

Instead, Mr. Kelly, the White House chief of staff, resurrected the debate over Confederate monuments — previously fueled by his boss, President Trump, over the summer — and the Confederacy itself. He called Robert E. Lee “an honorable man who gave up his country to fight for his state,” said that “men and women of good faith on both sides made their stand where their conscience had them make their stand,” and argued that “the lack of an ability to compromise led to the Civil War.”

Christina Wilkie, a reporter for CNBC, used Twitter to live-blog Monday’s interview, on the Fox News program “The Ingraham Angle.” Her tweet quoting Mr. Kelly’s “lack of an ability to compromise” statement spread quickly.

The reaction was swift and unforgiving, with many commenters ridiculing Mr. Kelly for suggesting that slavery was an issue on which a compromise could or should have been reached.
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#233

Post by pipistrelle » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:37 am

“men and women of good faith on both sides made their stand where their conscience had them make their stand"
At first I thought he was going to work quietly in the background and avoid making a fool of himself. I was wrong.

To say "conscience" was behind making a stand for enslaving human beings — wow.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#234

Post by Chilidog » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:47 am

Image

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#235

Post by maydijo » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:54 am

I suppose if you want to get technical, all war is about the lack of ability to compromise. But it is a gross oversimplification. Wasn't this guy a general? You'd think he'd have a better grasp of military history.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#236

Post by p0rtia » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:58 am

Epic take-down of the "compromise" characterization by Ta-Nahisi Coates on Twitter. Some observations of Kelly as well.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#237

Post by DejaMoo » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:00 am

p0rtia wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:58 am
Epic take-down of the "compromise" characterization by Ta-Nahisi Coates on Twitter. Some observations of Kelly as well.

Ta-Nehisi Coates‏@tanehisicoates 3h3 hours ago

Notion that Civil War resulted from a lack of compromise is belied by all the compromises made on enslavement from America's founding.

I mean, like, it's called The three fifths compromise for a reason. But it doesn't stand alone. Missouri Compromise. Kansas-Nebraska Act.

Lincoln's own platform was a compromise. Lincoln was not an abolitionist. He proposed to limit slavery's expansion, not end it.

During the Civil War, Lincoln repeatedly sought to compromise by paying reparations--to slaveholders--and shipping blacks out the country.

Spirit of "compromise" continued--Lincoln asked only 10 percent of voters in rebel states to sign loyalty oath for readmission to Union.

"Compromise" continued long after Lincoln's death. Compromise of 1877 led to explicit White Supremacist rule in the South for a century.

As historian David Blight pointed out "compromise" with white supremacy was how the country achieved reunion.

Shocking that someone charged with defending their country, in some profound way, does not comprehend the country they claim to defend.

Notion that we are putting today's standards on the past is, in itself, racist--implies only white, slave-holding, opinions matter.

Majority of people living in South Carolina in 1860 were black--they did not need modern white wokeness to tell them slavery was wrong.

Majority of people living in Mississippi in 1860 were black. They knew, in their own time, that enslavement was wrong.

Half the people living in states like Louisiana, Georgia, Alabama enslaved--knew full well that enslavement was dead wrong.

Praising Bobby Lee as an honorable man is just sad. Like some kid insisting his deadbeat dad is actually a secret agent away on a mission.

As @AdamSerwer points out Lee wasn't some agnostic pressed into War. He was a dude who thought torture was cool.
Image

Again. This is knowable. Not hard to find out about Lee. You do not have to sit in a Harvard history colloquium to understand the Civil War.

But you do have to actually read what the people who started the War actually said.

You do have to get these guys were the worst of America.

They did not merely want to preserve the right to own people, they wanted to expand that right.
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I've heard this bull before.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#238

Post by tek » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:24 am

Hey! it's unpatriotic to argue with a general! :fingerwag:
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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#239

Post by June bug » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:04 am

Plus, also, per Axios:
In a Fox News interview, John Kelly said he thought an investigation was needed into funding from Hillary Clinton's campaign and the DNC for the research behind the Trump/Russia dossier, and Clinton's involvement in the Uranium One deal.

"The American people really do have a right to know what their government does… have a right to know what their government is doing on any given day, and by this same token what private citizens are doing if they break the law," he said.
And:
Kelly said he thought Robert Mueller's Russia investigation "should wrap up soon," and attempted to distance President Trump from any wrongdoing by the three men for whom indictments were announced Monday.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#240

Post by neeneko » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:28 am

pipistrelle wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:37 am
At first I thought he was going to work quietly in the background and avoid making a fool of himself. I was wrong.

To say "conscience" was behind making a stand for enslaving human beings — wow.
Sad thing is, it was probably a good political move. By making these statements he tapped down worries about him and Trump being on the outs by reaffirming his ideological connections to both Trump and his supporters. He just reminded people who's side he is on.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#241

Post by TexasFilly » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:05 am

More deflection and diversion. Kelly is a disgrace.
I love the poorly educated!!!

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#242

Post by ObjectiveDoubter » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:30 am

.
There were so, so many things wrong about what Kelly said.

I found it very repugnant that he facilely misstated that citizens of the time put state before country, to explain Lee's decision to leave the Union and lead the Confederate army. While he may have been good in the military, Kelly, the civilian is simply ignorant.

In fact, state before country identity is simply not true. Lee's decision was not an easy one, and for most, other than the conscripted soldiers who had no choice, it was driven by economics and a sense of economic oppression (rightly or wrongly, morally or immorally), not one of loyalty to state over country.

Apropos of Halloween (Trick 'r Treat, y'all), that Kelly is one scary dude!

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#243

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:31 am

TexasFilly wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:05 am
More deflection and diversion. Kelly is a disgrace.
Methinks we are seeing the "real" Kelly. I wonder when victims will come out.
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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#244

Post by pipistrelle » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:48 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:28 pm
Sometimes there's a lack of black and white.

Kelly may be completely hateful. He may be a nationalistic bigot. He may hold policy positions on any number of issues that most people find repugnant. He may fully endorse 100% of what most Republicans want to accomplish during this administration.

But under the current cataclysmic state of affairs, none of that disqualifies him from being the (comparably) rational adult in the room.
Up to a point I agreed with this.

But then he spoke. Twice. He's a Slitheen too.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#245

Post by Flatpointhigh » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:57 pm

June bug wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:31 am
TexasFilly wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:23 pm
Kelly is 67 years old. He's got his and his wife's healthcare taken care of, not to mention a 4 star General's pension. He doesn't need future employment. He's been on board with Trump from the beginning.
Yep - all anyone has to do is check his record at Homeland Security, where he fulfilled more than every Donald dream. And, plus, too, as Josh Marshall at TPM also noted, when he talked about what used to be sacred it was a laundry list of of the grievances of Trump's base. Women used to be sacred, life in all its forms used to be sacred, religion used to be sacred, etc.
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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#246

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:19 pm

pipistrelle wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:48 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:28 pm
Sometimes there's a lack of black and white.

Kelly may be completely hateful. He may be a nationalistic bigot. He may hold policy positions on any number of issues that most people find repugnant. He may fully endorse 100% of what most Republicans want to accomplish during this administration.

But under the current cataclysmic state of affairs, none of that disqualifies him from being the (comparably) rational adult in the room.
Up to a point I agreed with this.

But then he spoke. Twice. He's a Slitheen too.
I'm still standing by my original assessment. His presence seems likely to reduce the potential that we will be Tweeted into a nuclear war. By the standards of the current administration, that alone is sufficient to make him the rational adult in the room.

Adult has never, at least in my own view, been mutually exclusive with "evil."
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--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#247

Post by June bug » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:27 pm

Sorry, Mike. I am no longer merely dubious about Kelly being the adult in the room - I know he isn't. And again, this isn't based on policy but on the core of the man.

Like his master, he doubles down rather than ever admit he's wrong. Whether on Frederica Wilson or Robert E. Lee or the Civil War, he refuses to accept responsibility for his own mistakes, lies or mischaracterizations. His arrogance is stunning.

That is not the behavior of an adult. And it pre-dates his CoS position - witness him lecturing Congress, while Homeland Security Secretary, on how they need to just shut up and let his people do their job. I find that uncomfortably reminiscent of his attitude toward those who haven't served in the military. Again, stunning arrogance with more than just a bit of bullying thrown in.

I've lost any faith in Kelly to curb Trump's worst instincts. Now I see him as an enabler.

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#248

Post by Slim Cognito » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:54 am

Count me in. It's now clear that his attempts to control Trump had nothing to do with helping the country. It was all about helping Trump get his agenda through before imploding.
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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#249

Post by pipistrelle » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:01 am

Slim Cognito wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:54 am
Count me in. It's now clear that his attempts to control Trump had nothing to do with helping the country. It was all about helping Trump get his agenda through before imploding.
:yeah:

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Re: Gen. John Kelly

#250

Post by pipistrelle » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:07 am

His posture while Trump was speaking at the UN? My posture when I read his comments. Any of his comments.

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