Mike Pence

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TollandRCR
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Re: Mike Pence

#151

Post by TollandRCR » Mon May 14, 2018 11:09 pm

We do not understand approval ratings very well. I have suspected that an approval response is always embedded in a comparison: Approve in relation to whom? The 2020 candidate of the Democratic Party, the kind of campaign run, and the public face of the party may have a large impact. I would not count on those approval ratings holding.


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Re: Mike Pence

#152

Post by woodworker » Mon May 14, 2018 11:27 pm

I think that in a direct Trump / Pence political fight Pence loses. While he would likely win the traditional republican and some of the evangelicals, Trump would keep the anti-immigrants, the racists, the bigots, the anti-semites, the NRA, and the Alt-right. Trump's crazy factor appeals to these people and, while I believe Pence is just as bad as Trump on most of those issues, Pence doesn't have the crazy factor. Additionally, I think Pence will be more beholden to big business and they really don't agree with Trump re: immigration and the wall. They want workers and I think Pence would cave into them on immigration and the wall. If he does the right wing media will castrate him -- think of what Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity, Alex Jones, etc. will do to anyone that is not full out anti-immigrant.


Pence / Haley -- 2020 "I Won't Call Her Mother" and "We Will Be The Best Team Ever, But Never Alone Together"

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Re: Mike Pence

#153

Post by woodworker » Mon May 14, 2018 11:42 pm

And while I am ranting and raving, one of my biggest beefs with President Obama is that he allowed Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/BOLTON/Wolfowitz, etc. to ride off into the sunset and escape any accountability for their actions/crimes. If we (the Democrats) end up taking the House or Senate, we need real investigations and hearings and indictments, not just into the crimes/negligence that is going on now and not just into the Russian/Trump relationship. We need hearings and actions on what needs to be done to keep this from ever happening again. Trump may pardon the whole fucking zoo, but I still want to see the Democrats do every thing possible to hold these assholes accountable. I want to see them in prison, all of them, for a very long time. But hey, I'm petty like that.


Pence / Haley -- 2020 "I Won't Call Her Mother" and "We Will Be The Best Team Ever, But Never Alone Together"

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Re: Mike Pence

#154

Post by Sam the Centipede » Tue May 15, 2018 9:17 am

woodworker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:42 pm
And while I am ranting and raving, one of my biggest beefs with President Obama is that he allowed Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/BOLTON/Wolfowitz, etc. to ride off into the sunset and escape any accountability for their actions/crimes. :snippity:
Look at the counterfactual: if Obama had gone after those guys, it would have distracted from his core social program, and it might have upset a lot of the less committed voters. He could have lost his popularity and missed out on the second term.

Sometimes the bigger picture means one has to let go. I am sure that Trump will end up post-presidency holding court at the Mierd-a-Larga golf dump telling anybody who will listen that he was the bigliest, greatest president of all history, past, present and future. He won't go behind bars, where he certainly should be for his probably criminal, definitely unethical (and only legal by abusing the letter of the law) activities. His breaking of contracts is notionally a civil matter, but perhaps going into contracts intending to break them (as was apparently his standard operating procedure) constitutes fraud -- if it doesn't, it should do.



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Re: Mike Pence

#155

Post by neeneko » Tue May 15, 2018 9:35 am

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:17 am

Look at the counterfactual: if Obama had gone after those guys, it would have distracted from his core social program, and it might have upset a lot of the less committed voters. He could have lost his popularity and missed out on the second term.
On the other hand it might have energized his core supporters and gained him the political capital he so desperately needed to tackle his core social programs.

One of the common complaints against the current Democratic party is that they spend too much time trying to win over people who do not like them, too much time worrying about how conservatives will see them, too much time turning the other cheek and build broader coalitions.. instead of focusing on rewarding their base.

Going after the previous administration would have been a crowd pleaser, and failing to go after them might have upset a good number of that core and produced a lot of the lack of support form his own party Obama struggled with.

Letting go is only pragmatic when both sides are doing it. When one is and the other is not, the utility changes dramatically. The GoP has been extremely successful in its pettiness and many feel that the democrats should at least match it when it comes to things they feel represent actual wrongs or crimes.



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Re: Mike Pence

#156

Post by bob » Tue May 15, 2018 12:47 pm

neeneko wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:35 am
The GoP has been extremely successful in its pettiness and many feel that the democrats should at least match it when it comes to things they feel represent actual wrongs or crimes.
Republicans get more mileage out of persecuting Clinton rather than actually prosecuting Clinton.


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Re: Mike Pence

#157

Post by woodworker » Tue May 15, 2018 2:23 pm

neeneko wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:35 am
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:17 am

Look at the counterfactual: if Obama had gone after those guys, it would have distracted from his core social program, and it might have upset a lot of the less committed voters. He could have lost his popularity and missed out on the second term.
On the other hand it might have energized his core supporters and gained him the political capital he so desperately needed to tackle his core social programs.

One of the common complaints against the current Democratic party is that they spend too much time trying to win over people who do not like them, too much time worrying about how conservatives will see them, too much time turning the other cheek and build broader coalitions.. instead of focusing on rewarding their base.

Going after the previous administration would have been a crowd pleaser, and failing to go after them might have upset a good number of that core and produced a lot of the lack of support form his own party Obama struggled with.

Letting go is only pragmatic when both sides are doing it. When one is and the other is not, the utility changes dramatically. The GoP has been extremely successful in its pettiness and many feel that the democrats should at least match it when it comes to things they feel represent actual wrongs or crimes.
:yeah:


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Re: Mike Pence

#158

Post by woodworker » Tue May 15, 2018 3:25 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:17 am
woodworker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:42 pm
And while I am ranting and raving, one of my biggest beefs with President Obama is that he allowed Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/BOLTON/Wolfowitz, etc. to ride off into the sunset and escape any accountability for their actions/crimes. :snippity:
Look at the counterfactual: if Obama had gone after those guys, it would have distracted from his core social program, and it might have upset a lot of the less committed voters. He could have lost his popularity and missed out on the second term.

Sometimes the bigger picture means one has to let go. I am sure that Trump will end up post-presidency holding court at the Mierd-a-Larga golf dump telling anybody who will listen that he was the bigliest, greatest president of all history, past, present and future. He won't go behind bars, where he certainly should be for his probably criminal, definitely unethical (and only legal by abusing the letter of the law) activities. His breaking of contracts is notionally a civil matter, but perhaps going into contracts intending to break them (as was apparently his standard operating procedure) constitutes fraud -- if it doesn't, it should do.
My problems with that approach are that (1) we normalize the behavior, (2) we allow the evil folks to come back and do it again, and again. We didn't penalize anyone for Iran - Contra, which, we should remember, involved directly violating US law to sell missiles directly to Iran and then use that money to fund the Contras, again in direct violation of US law. We didn't penalize anyone higher up in the food chain for the lies told to us about the existence of WMD in Iraq, or for the war crimes we committed there, e.g., waterboarding, and now we have the return of people like John Bolton and Oliver North.

Yes, I agree that sometimes looking at and acknowledging the actions taken in our collective name may have negative political consequences in the short term. But, IMHO, ignoring or whitewashing what has been done in our name and not punishing those who broke the law and/or the collectively moral contract to which we allegedly all subscribe, e.g., torture is immoral, is the same as ignoring a cancer or infection on the theory that the medical care needed will be painful, so instead let's take two aspirin and put a band-aid on it. The cancer or infection is not likely to go away on its own, but is more likely to spread and require greater, more extensive, more expensive and more desperate measures later on, which measures have no guarantee of success.

I wish that I could be as sanguine as many others, that I had no doubt that our country will recover from what is happening, but I am scared. We are losing the respect of millions around the world, we are no longer that "shining city on the hill," we not only endorse torture, our President embraces and celebrates it, our legislatures and our judiciary are more in thrall to and captives of our money elite, and we are no longer looked up to by persons of conscience. If we judge a society by the standard of how it treats the least among it, we are failing, etc., etc., etc. Racism, bigotry and hatred have not only not gone away but they are now defining characteristics of our political "leadership," and our religious leadership, etc.

The President of the United States invites a cleric who, if he was a Muslim rather than a Christian (and a very specific form of Christianity) would be attacked as being a extremist and terrorist, a cleric who openly and proudly proclaims that all Jews will go to hell, to give the benediction at the opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem and yet, with very very few exceptions, none of the leaders or representatives of the "conservative," "family values," "moral," and definitely the "holier than the rest of you" Republican party or religious institutions object to this. The Republicans and the right-wing religious cartel like to claim that the US is suffering from declining morals and decay because our society allows greater individual freedoms -- to me the behavior of these allegedly principled individuals and institutions is far greater evidence of the decay of our morality.

I am a 63 year old white Jewish male. I grew up giving money to plant trees in Israel, to support the kibbutz' and to support Israel. The Israel I grew up supporting was, at least to me, truly a beacon of democracy, a modern day state where the milk and the honey would flow, a place were all persons, regardless of gender, birth or how religious they were, were equal. To me that place no longer exists -- I see Israel today as an apartheid state, where Jewish legislators routinely refer to Arabs as sub-humans, and where civil rights have ceased to exist. I hold no brief for the Palestinians, for Hamas, for Hezbollah, or for the Arab nations -- there is plenty of blame to go around. But when Israel, supported by our government, openly and callously kills protesters, guns down journalists, holds captive an entire population in Gaza and builds walls and fences in order to segregate Palestinians, I have to say, enough. Especially when the primary, if not only, reason that the US and the right-wing religious cartel are supporting Israel is because they believe that it will be destroyed as part of Armageddon and they are actively working towards the goal of Armegeddon. These people don't give a damn about Jews or about a Jewish homeland -- after all, just look at the cleric who gave the benediction. Yet Jared and Ivanka stood there smiling.

This turned out to be a much longer comment than I intended but, as you can see, I am scared that we are going down a path to hell and white washing history is just one step on that path.

Okay, I toasted some cinnamon bread and buttered about 45 minutes ago -- I need to eat it now.


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Re: Mike Pence

#159

Post by That Eurojerk » Tue May 15, 2018 3:31 pm

woodworker wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:25 pm
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:17 am
woodworker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:42 pm
And while I am ranting and raving, one of my biggest beefs with President Obama is that he allowed Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/BOLTON/Wolfowitz, etc. to ride off into the sunset and escape any accountability for their actions/crimes. :snippity:
Look at the counterfactual: if Obama had gone after those guys, it would have distracted from his core social program, and it might have upset a lot of the less committed voters. He could have lost his popularity and missed out on the second term.

Sometimes the bigger picture means one has to let go. I am sure that Trump will end up post-presidency holding court at the Mierd-a-Larga golf dump telling anybody who will listen that he was the bigliest, greatest president of all history, past, present and future. He won't go behind bars, where he certainly should be for his probably criminal, definitely unethical (and only legal by abusing the letter of the law) activities. His breaking of contracts is notionally a civil matter, but perhaps going into contracts intending to break them (as was apparently his standard operating procedure) constitutes fraud -- if it doesn't, it should do.
My problems with that approach are that (1) we normalize the behavior, (2) we allow the evil folks to come back and do it again, and again. We didn't penalize anyone for Iran - Contra, which, we should remember, involved directly violating US law to sell missiles directly to Iran and then use that money to fund the Contras, again in direct violation of US law. We didn't penalize anyone higher up in the food chain for the lies told to us about the existence of WMD in Iraq, or for the war crimes we committed there, e.g., waterboarding, and now we have the return of people like John Bolton and Oliver North.

Yes, I agree that sometimes looking at and acknowledging the actions taken in our collective name may have negative political consequences in the short term. But, IMHO, ignoring or whitewashing what has been done in our name and not punishing those who broke the law and/or the collectively moral contract to which we allegedly all subscribe, e.g., torture is immoral, is the same as ignoring a cancer or infection on the theory that the medical care needed will be painful, so instead let's take two aspirin and put a band-aid on it. The cancer or infection is not likely to go away on its own, but is more likely to spread and require greater, more extensive, more expensive and more desperate measures later on, which measures have no guarantee of success.

I wish that I could be as sanguine as many others, that I had no doubt that our country will recover from what is happening, but I am scared. We are losing the respect of millions around the world, we are no longer that "shining city on the hill," we not only endorse torture, our President embraces and celebrates it, our legislatures and our judiciary are more in thrall to and captives of our money elite, and we are no longer looked up to by persons of conscience. If we judge a society by the standard of how it treats the least among it, we are failing, etc., etc., etc. Racism, bigotry and hatred have not only not gone away but they are now defining characteristics of our political "leadership," and our religious leadership, etc.

The President of the United States invites a cleric who, if he was a Muslim rather than a Christian (and a very specific form of Christianity) would be attacked as being a extremist and terrorist, a cleric who openly and proudly proclaims that all Jews will go to hell, to give the benediction at the opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem and yet, with very very few exceptions, none of the leaders or representatives of the "conservative," "family values," "moral," and definitely the "holier than the rest of you" Republican party or religious institutions object to this. The Republicans and the right-wing religious cartel like to claim that the US is suffering from declining morals and decay because our society allows greater individual freedoms -- to me the behavior of these allegedly principled individuals and institutions is far greater evidence of the decay of our morality.

I am a 63 year old white Jewish male. I grew up giving money to plant trees in Israel, to support the kibbutz' and to support Israel. The Israel I grew up supporting was, at least to me, truly a beacon of democracy, a modern day state where the milk and the honey would flow, a place were all persons, regardless of gender, birth or how religious they were, were equal. To me that place no longer exists -- I see Israel today as an apartheid state, where Jewish legislators routinely refer to Arabs as sub-humans, and where civil rights have ceased to exist. I hold no brief for the Palestinians, for Hamas, for Hezbollah, or for the Arab nations -- there is plenty of blame to go around. But when Israel, supported by our government, openly and callously kills protesters, guns down journalists, holds captive an entire population in Gaza and builds walls and fences in order to segregate Palestinians, I have to say, enough. Especially when the primary, if not only, reason that the US and the right-wing religious cartel are supporting Israel is because they believe that it will be destroyed as part of Armageddon and they are actively working towards the goal of Armegeddon. These people don't give a damn about Jews or about a Jewish homeland -- after all, just look at the cleric who gave the benediction. Yet Jared and Ivanka stood there smiling.

This turned out to be a much longer comment than I intended but, as you can see, I am scared that we are going down a path to hell and white washing history is just one step on that path.

Okay, I toasted some cinnamon bread and buttered about 45 minutes ago -- I need to eat it now.
Hey woodworker, I love you!
Carl


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Re: Mike Pence

#160

Post by Gregg » Tue May 15, 2018 3:48 pm

RTH10260 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:49 pm
Mike Pence: ‘There is no greater force for peace in this world’ than nuclear weapons
Sarah K. Burris 27 OCT 2017 AT 15:43 ET

Nothing quite says peace like a nuclear weapon, at least, that’s what Vice President Mike Pence seems to think.

In a Friday series of tweets, Pence spoke at Minot Air Force Base. “There is no greater element of American strength – there is no greater force for peace in this world – than the U.S’ nuclear arsenal,” he tweeted.

According to Pence, President Donald Trump “is committed to ensuring the U.S maintains a nuclear deterrent capable of meeting the unpredictable threats of the 21st Century.”

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/10/mike-p ... r-weapons/
It could be worse, Trump would use the same line, at Hiroshima.


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Re: Mike Pence

#161

Post by woodworker » Tue May 15, 2018 8:12 pm

Gregg wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:48 pm
RTH10260 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:49 pm
Mike Pence: ‘There is no greater force for peace in this world’ than nuclear weapons
Sarah K. Burris 27 OCT 2017 AT 15:43 ET

Nothing quite says peace like a nuclear weapon, at least, that’s what Vice President Mike Pence seems to think.

In a Friday series of tweets, Pence spoke at Minot Air Force Base. “There is no greater element of American strength – there is no greater force for peace in this world – than the U.S’ nuclear arsenal,” he tweeted.

According to Pence, President Donald Trump “is committed to ensuring the U.S maintains a nuclear deterrent capable of meeting the unpredictable threats of the 21st Century.”

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/10/mike-p ... r-weapons/
It could be worse, Trump would use the same line, at Hiroshima.
And all this time I thought our greatest strength was our shared belief in democracy and making the world a better place for all, along with our economic strength. But now I stand corrected -- all you need to be strong is nuclear weapons -- that explains why North Korea wanted them.

Also, off topic: how many people believe that Trump will cancel the joint South Korean/US military maneuvers in order to save his summit next month. This so reminds me of that scene at the beginning of "Patton", where Patton is watching the panzer units and he exclaims something to the effect of "Rommel, you glorious bastard, I read your book." Kim has read "The Art of the Deal" and one of the things he took from it is to make an unreasonable demand and then walk away from the table, making your adversary give in if they want to save the deal. That is exactly what he is doing now IMHO -- Trump so wants the summit next month to show the world that he, and he alone, can solve the Korea problem, and he really wants that Nobel Peace Price. Kim knows that and is playing Trump like a cheap guitar. I predict Trump will cancel the joint maneuvers and claim that "we have peace in our time."


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Re: Mike Pence

#162

Post by Sam the Centipede » Tue May 15, 2018 9:58 pm

Woodworker: I feel your pain! My main point was that I see very good reasons why Obama would have steered clear of chasing the previous administration as a matter of realpolitik.

We also don't want to see every new administration adopting harassment or the previous administration or negation of its actions as its main focus ... as we see now!

You are correct in saying that the US government's reputation internationally has dropped, plummeted even. That does not mean that the reputation of the country has dropped in the same way -- it is important to remember that a country and its government are not one thing. Of course some abroad see the country as being populated by idiots because the people voted in Trump! (don't expect fur'ners to care about distinctions between popular and electoral college votes).

Like it or not, it is a fact that powerful people and rich people are treated differently everywhere, and they can avoid the consequences of their evil attitudes or bad behavior. (For example, pre-presidential Donald Trump could rook his suppliers and contractors in ways that we ordinary folk could not get away with.) That is unlikely to change.



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Re: Mike Pence

#163

Post by neeneko » Wed May 16, 2018 9:02 am

woodworker wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:12 pm
Also, off topic: how many people believe that Trump will cancel the joint South Korean/US military maneuvers in order to save his summit next month.
Isn't it already too late to cancel them?

I doubt Trump will back down, he is too afraid of looking weak. Trump really wants this deal, but he has so much else going on he can probably switch gears and both his followers and ego will forget about the summit. Part of his appeal is that he recasts losing as winning, by showing he is so powerful and awesome that he can walk away from anything and not be impacted. The world needs him, not the other way around.



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Re: Mike Pence

#164

Post by Turtle » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:29 pm

why




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Re: Mike Pence

#165

Post by RVInit » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:12 am

Trump put his water on the floor for one and only one reason - to make sure that Pence is still 100% under his thumb. I'm sure there are countless other sick games Trump plays with his court each and every day.


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Re: Mike Pence

#166

Post by Turtle » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:01 am




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Re: Mike Pence

#167

Post by Gregg » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:03 am

Does anyone else see the irony of him standing in front of a "Tax Cuts to Put America First" background, when the President is using tariffs (which are just a new targeted tax after all) to "Put America" well, not a good thing.


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Re: Mike Pence

#168

Post by Sam the Centipede » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:03 am

Gregg wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:03 am
Does anyone else see the irony of him standing in front of a "Tax Cuts to Put America First" background, when the President is using tariffs (which are just a new targeted tax after all) to "Put America" well, not a good thing.
No, no, no, Gregg, you're not think Trumpish! Tariffs are taxes on foreigners and those who support them by importing stuff. Patriotic US taxpayers don't pay tariffs!

You might see it differently. But you're not a reality-challenged idiot.



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Re: Mike Pence

#169

Post by Gregg » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:21 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:03 am
Gregg wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:03 am
Does anyone else see the irony of him standing in front of a "Tax Cuts to Put America First" background, when the President is using tariffs (which are just a new targeted tax after all) to "Put America" well, not a good thing.
No, no, no, Gregg, you're not think Trumpish! Tariffs are taxes on foreigners and those who support them by importing stuff. Patriotic US taxpayers don't pay tariffs!

You might see it differently. But you're not a reality-challenged idiot.
I often feel hindered by my doctorate in economics.


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Re: Mike Pence

#170

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:55 pm

Gregg wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:21 pm
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:03 am
Gregg wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:03 am
Does anyone else see the irony of him standing in front of a "Tax Cuts to Put America First" background, when the President is using tariffs (which are just a new targeted tax after all) to "Put America" well, not a good thing.
No, no, no, Gregg, you're not think Trumpish! Tariffs are taxes on foreigners and those who support them by importing stuff. Patriotic US taxpayers don't pay tariffs!

You might see it differently. But you're not a reality-challenged idiot.
I often feel hindered by my doctorate in economics.
I had no idea you were a graduate of trump U! Congrats.



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Re: Mike Pence

#171

Post by Gregg » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:38 pm

Umm, no.

Big name Ivy league BS, Mathematics
Bigger name UK School, MS, Economics
Jesuit University with a very good basketball team, MBA
Big 10 school that's kind of a vocational school for car companies, PhD, International Business (public finance and economics)


No diploma mills in the bunch...


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Re: Mike Pence

#172

Post by Foggy » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:28 pm

Humph. My degree was a prize in a box of CrackerJack. :thumbs:


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Re: Mike Pence

#173

Post by TollandRCR » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:44 pm

Gregg wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:38 pm
Umm, no.

Big name Ivy league BS, Mathematics
Bigger name UK School, MS, Economics
Jesuit University with a very good basketball team, MBA
Big 10 school that's kind of a vocational school for car companies, PhD, International Business (public finance and economics)


No diploma mills in the bunch...
That Big 10 school produces some fine experts in international business. I can say that because I no longer teach there.


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Re: Mike Pence

#174

Post by SuzieC » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:19 pm



Hello! I still don't know how to post pix here but if you go to the link you will see Mike Gay Pence, in his short shorts, appear at the Big Gay Dance Party and the Pride Parade this weekend. I love my big gay city.



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Re: Mike Pence

#175

Post by SuzieC » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:27 pm

Hmmm, OK. Not posting for whatever reason. If anyone wants to see photos of Gay Mike Pence at the Columbus Pride Parade and Big Gay Dance Party go to my FB page: https://www.facebook.com/susan.sullivan ... 9838862470.



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