Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

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Gregg
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Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #1 by Gregg » Wed May 17, 2017 10:01 am

Just trying to get out in front of this, and see if anyone else thinks we ought to get organized for the coming downfall.
To kick it off, I ask, what mechanism? Resignation, Disability (25th Amendment), Impeachment, Health or untimely death?

Do we have enough evidence to predict yet? For myself, the Comey Memo leads to Intelligence Committee Hearings, the Select Impeachment Committee Hearings, articles of Impeachment passed out of Committee (this is where Nixon quit), passed on the full house and who knows what madness follows.

Watergate took over two years from the break in until the resignation, but Nixon didn't have twitter.

Wrap it all up before Labor Day.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Anyone else?



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Atticus Finch
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Re: Death Throws of the Trump Presidency

Post #2 by Atticus Finch » Wed May 17, 2017 10:04 am

You mean death throes?



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Azastan
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Re: Death Throws of the Trump Presidency

Post #3 by Azastan » Wed May 17, 2017 10:07 am

I see that at least one Congressman is going to call for impeachment today, from the floor of the House of Representatives.



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Gregg
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Re: Death Throws of the Trump Presidency

Post #4 by Gregg » Wed May 17, 2017 10:08 am

Atticus Finch wrote:You mean death throes?



Oops, fixed it



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wavey davey
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Re: Death Throws of the Trump Presidency

Post #5 by wavey davey » Wed May 17, 2017 10:11 am

The Comey memo is devastating. White House denies it. Can anyone possibly believe that? Is there any possible way to wiggle out of that? Is there any escape from this being proof of obstruction of justice?



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Re: Death Throws of the Trump Presidency

Post #6 by NMgirl » Wed May 17, 2017 10:15 am

Gregg wrote:
Atticus Finch wrote:You mean death throes?



Oops, fixed it


I prefer "Throws" since it implies that the hits will just keep coming. We're going to need a lot of throws to get Trump out of office.



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #7 by Gregg » Wed May 17, 2017 10:16 am

If it comes down to conflicting accounts of the same conversation, who has the most credibility, James Comey or Donald Trump.
And not just with us, or not just with the larger non-partisan American, but its also important to the process how much support he retains from the Fox News viewer.



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Re: Death Throws of the Trump Presidency

Post #8 by NMgirl » Wed May 17, 2017 10:20 am

wavey davey wrote:The Comey memo is devastating. White House denies it. Can anyone possibly believe that? Is there any possible way to wiggle out of that? Is there any escape from this being proof of obstruction of justice?


I have another question, also, too. What if Trump starts pardoning people, like Flynn, Manafort, Page? I've seen this mentioned as a possibility, but can the president pardon somebody who has not been convicted of a crime :?:



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Re: Death Throws of the Trump Presidency

Post #9 by Gregg » Wed May 17, 2017 10:23 am

NMgirl wrote:
wavey davey wrote:The Comey memo is devastating. White House denies it. Can anyone possibly believe that? Is there any possible way to wiggle out of that? Is there any escape from this being proof of obstruction of justice?


I have another question, also, too. What if Trump starts pardoning people, like Flynn, Manafort, Page? I've seen this mentioned as a possibility, but can the president pardon somebody who has not been convicted of a crime :?:



I know this one!

The President can pardon anyone for crimes named in detail or in broad terms described (Nixon was pardoned for all crimes he may have committed from Jan 20 1969 through Aug 8th 1974.) A pardon must be accepted, and accepting a pardon is construed as an admission of some guilt.

(All those Nixon biographies paid off afterall!)



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #10 by Gregg » Wed May 17, 2017 10:25 am

The relevant part of Nixon's Pardon

Gerald R Ford wrote:Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #11 by Mikedunford » Wed May 17, 2017 10:26 am

My gut feeling is that Trump will leave office with the inauguration of his elected successor. And I'd say there's about a 65-70% chance, no more, that this will take place in 2020.


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Re: Death Throws of the Trump Presidency

Post #12 by NMgirl » Wed May 17, 2017 10:29 am

Gregg wrote:
(All those Nixon biographies paid off afterall!)


Thanks for answering my question. :thumbs:



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #13 by Gregg » Wed May 17, 2017 10:29 am

I would have agreed to you until yesterday. I think, and I hope, that this has fallen over the tipping point. If it does turn, I think it'll happen very fast by Washington DC standards, once the Republicans go that way, they'll want to start washing the stink off themselves as fast as possible,


I also think an important part of the collapse will be self inflicted by Trump and his Twitter Account. The man will not be able to shut up and will dig himself to the grave, 140 characters at a time.



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #14 by GlimDropper » Wed May 17, 2017 10:32 am

Call me cynical but I don't think we're there yet. The Trumpster fire will continue with near daily doses of outrage but the people inclined to care about that aren't the same people who can do anything about it. In the mean time bits and pieces of a legislative agenda percolate through without attracting the scrutiny they deserve.

The same people who were all Benghazi all the time are sick and tired of all the "fake news" about Russia.

Facts no longer matter.

Organize!



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #15 by Suranis » Wed May 17, 2017 10:56 am

As I said on another thread, the key is to keep pissing Trump off. He will keep making unforced errors and will come close to cracking up. The closer he comes the more the chances of someone saying "enough." And that is the key. Once people start saying enough more will follow and the whole thing will start unzipping. And it will happen fast once it starts. But the key is Trump going haywire, and he will if people piss him off, and get in his face about stuff.


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Re: Death Throws of the Trump Presidency

Post #16 by noblepa » Wed May 17, 2017 11:03 am

NMgirl wrote:
wavey davey wrote:The Comey memo is devastating. White House denies it. Can anyone possibly believe that? Is there any possible way to wiggle out of that? Is there any escape from this being proof of obstruction of justice?


I have another question, also, too. What if Trump starts pardoning people, like Flynn, Manafort, Page? I've seen this mentioned as a possibility, but can the president pardon somebody who has not been convicted of a crime :?:



Sure, he can. Remember Ford pardoning Nixon. At the time, Nixon had resigned but had not been indicted for any crime. It cost Ford the 1976 election.

The really bad part is that there's nothing that can be done. A president's pardon power is pretty much absolute and unreviewable.



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #17 by Suranis » Wed May 17, 2017 11:06 am

He could technically pardon himself. The only thing that might stop him is the "admitting guilt" part.


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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #18 by noblepa » Wed May 17, 2017 11:11 am

Gregg wrote:I would have agreed to you until yesterday. I think, and I hope, that this has fallen over the tipping point. If it does turn, I think it'll happen very fast by Washington DC standards, once the Republicans go that way, they'll want to start washing the stink off themselves as fast as possible,


I also think an important part of the collapse will be self inflicted by Trump and his Twitter Account. The man will not be able to shut up and will dig himself to the grave, 140 characters at a time.


I agree with you, in spirit, but I don't think that the republicans in Congress are ready to pull the trigger. They're at the point where they, for the most part, will no longer go on Fox news and defend the president. Mitch McConnell has even said he "could do with a little less drama".

Once the Comey documents are given to Congress, the process may accelerate, especially if there are more land mines.

Comey's testimony before Congress will probably hurt Trump badly.

I think it will take a few more debacles like we've seen in the last week to push the R's over the edge.

As you say, though, I think when it happens, it will happen very fast. Congress will want to get it over with before they have to gear up for the 2018 elections. They might try to drag it out until after the elections, but things are only going to get worse, so I think that would be a losing strategy.



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #19 by Fortinbras » Wed May 17, 2017 11:14 am

The President can pardon someone who has not been convicted of a crime. Ford did that for Nixon.

A President could also issue a partial clemency - a commutation to effectively pardon from a prison sentence, while leaving the fact of conviction and any fines and other penalties (such as disqualifications) intact - George W did that for Scooter Libby.

In the 1789 ratification convention in Virginia it was argued that a President could be impeached for giving pardons to people who had committed crimes at his instigation.

I had never thought we'd be actively discussing impeaching a President whose been in office less than 5 months.



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #20 by noblepa » Wed May 17, 2017 11:15 am

On a related note, and pure speculation...

If the House were to pass articles of impeachment, or if it became clear that such articles were inevitable, as happened with Nixon, would Trump go quietly?

If McConnell, Ryan, McCain, Graham and other top R's went to Trump and told him it was time to go, as the R's did with Nixon, would he resign, or would he stay and fight it out and risk becoming the first POTUS to ever be convicted in an impeachment trial?



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #21 by kate520 » Wed May 17, 2017 11:18 am

We'll have to wait until we see how he shits all over our allies on this Middle East tour. The remaining loyal R's might just give him a death throw if he screws this up too badly.

I'm ready. I believe he'll be gone by the mid-terms. He is not like any other "person"'who has held this office. There is a sense of clear and present danger emanating from him and everyone is waking up. Whether they publicly admit it or not.


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Jim
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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #22 by Jim » Wed May 17, 2017 11:20 am

Oh please...wait till we're in the middle of the 2018 elections. Then the Republicans in Congress can enjoy the first impeachment hearings in history where they are continually insulted on twitter by the defendant. Entertainment gold. :)



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #23 by MN-Skeptic » Wed May 17, 2017 11:59 am

As much as I love the idea of Trump being impeached, I don't see that happening.

While Trump may be sinking in the popularity polls, he still remains wildly popular with Republican voters. What Republican senator is going to vote for impeachment knowing that he's going to alienate his base, the folks he is depending on to vote for him in his next election? Until Trump does something so egregious as to turn Republican voters against him, he is safe from impeachment.



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #24 by jmj » Wed May 17, 2017 12:06 pm

noblepa wrote:On a related note, and pure speculation...

If the House were to pass articles of impeachment, or if it became clear that such articles were inevitable, as happened with Nixon, would Trump go quietly?


Unlikely. In my opinion, if impeachment happens, he'll drag it out as long as he can. And on the way out, he'll probably lash out and try to take as many people down with him as possible. And in the process he'll probably reveal a bunch more state secrets and cause several more constitutional crises. Never underestimate his narcissism and infantile behavior.



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Re: Death Throes of the Trump Presidency

Post #25 by Fortinbras » Wed May 17, 2017 12:20 pm

One of the many remarkable things is that the leading Republicans, like McConnell and Ryan, still talk as if nothing were amiss.
If this sort of accusation were made about a Democratic President, the Republicans in both Houses would already have the noose knitted up and the scaffold nailed together.

We have here a President who is treating the White House as a stepping stone; who is much too cozy with our quasi-enemies, and much too frigid with our valuable friends, who tells secrets to the Russians that the American newspapers dare not print, who is more interested in a fast buck than in future generations, etc. etc.




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