Bundy related gossip and discussion

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Jim
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3751

Post by Jim »

debdeb wrote:I come here to laugh at birthers and other rwnj, including the Bundy Gang. Which brings us to why the Bundy's piss me off, in no particular order.
:snippity:
4. ... If God wanted Mormons to take over federal buildings and violently resist lawful court orders, we wouldn't be hearing about it from a freaking Bundy.
:snippity:
To be clear, I'm not interested is defending the church generally, but I'm open to discussing the Bundy's and their Mormonism.
Thanks debdeb. You've already provided both enlightenment and entertainment, always a welcome addition. Not a bad start. :dance:
rifleman1635
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3752

Post by rifleman1635 »

While I'm sure that many members of Mormonism are no doubt loyal to the US, that does not erase the fact that sedition and rebellion against the US (and duly elected local governments) have been an integral part of Mormon policy from the start.
All one has to do is research "Mormon Wars" to see the history of sedition and outright rebellion ... the State of Utah owes the people of the United States an apology and should pay reparations for their bad acts done under the color of law. Brigham Young should be posthumously tried for treason and all his property and the property of the Mormon Church should be forfeit for their treason, but that's just MHO.
It is clear that Defendants Bundy are all acting on their Mormon beliefs and anything less than a complete repudiation (including excommunication) shows that the Mormon Hierarchy is still complicit in such sedition and rebellion against the duly elected government of the US.
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TollandRCR
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3753

Post by TollandRCR »

By that logic, John Hancock needs to be held accountable for his crimes. As Governor of Massachusetts, he did not pursue some of those who were delinquent in their taxes. Many around him were involved in or even directly supported Shay's Rebellion. He had directly profited from the smuggling of goods from Britain. That means the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has much to answer for.

There are a lot of returns to a search for "Mormon Wars." However, most of them were attacks upon Mormons by their neighbors or by a unit of government.

If any Americans have a valid claim against the Mormons for violence against them, it is (a) the victims of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and (b) the natives in the region, especially the Utes.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut
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phaseolus
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3754

Post by phaseolus »

maydijo wrote:I've registered to clear up a few things about the Bundys and Mormonism.
debdeb wrote:I'm up early with my baby and thought I'd get this posted. Here is my long post as to why, as a member of the LDS church, the Bundy's piss me off and some of the differences between their interpretations and mine.
Thanks for posting, I appreciate the information and point of view you bring.
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Karen Walker
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3755

Post by Karen Walker »

debdeb wrote: :snippity:
5. The White Horse Prophesy. I don't know if that's been explicitly stated by the Bundy's as an inspiration, but in all my years of church attendance, I've never, ever heard it taught or referenced. It's been repudiate as an official "prophesy" by the church for almost a century and it's way, way, way fringe. Now, I live on the east coast and have deliberately removed myself from a lot of Utah "culture" (I lived in Utah only long enough to get a college degree and then I split.) So there may be some circles where it is more often passed around orally, but again, I like to get my Church directly from the source.
:snippity:
Bundy later said in the video, “I began to understand what we were supposed to do is we were supposed to get together individuals all across this country that understood and cared about what was happening and understood that our Constitution was being violated that is hanging by a thread.”

The phrase “hanging by a thread” is taken from accountsof the so-called “White Horse Prophecy,” attributed to LDS church founder Joseph Smith Jr.

Although unsubstantiated, the vision attributed to Smith talks about the U.S. Constitution, saying it would “hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber” and only be rescued by a “white horse,” a reference to Revelation 6:1-8.

http://religionnews.com/2016/01/05/morm ... ilitiamen/
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Dolly
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3756

Post by Dolly »

Arnold Law Firm
2 hrs ·
Malheur protest Haiku contest! Most likes wins a free Versus Pocket Constitution & Pocket Art of War. Signed by me if you want and have a perverted sense of celebrity.
Rules: 5 syllables first line. 7 in 2nd. 5 in third.
Example:
Snow covered rangeland
Black truck passes rental car
Speeding to refuge
-----
Watch Finishing Machine book trailer: snip.ly/booktrailer or text BOOK to 66866.


There aren't many comments yet. I think I was able to capture what was there in the ARCHIVE link.
https://archive.is/RICkD
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3757

Post by boots »

The plan has failed
now adversely possessing the prison
no snacks no dildos oh no
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SueDB
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3758

Post by SueDB »

Sewage covered Gravesite
Poot runs road block
Grift Suntan Lotion in Hell


Burma Shave!
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ArthurWankspittle
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3759

Post by ArthurWankspittle »

Rejected by all
But a deluded few men
End life in prison
Trump appoints Incitatus to lead corona virus response.
#KingDonaldsPlague
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YellowMustard
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3760

Post by YellowMustard »

Fools morons and twits
Constitution they pervert
Mike Arnold's a douche
----IANAL----

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ArthurWankspittle
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3761

Post by ArthurWankspittle »

And just for Lavoy

Delusions mean trip.
Sheriff sought. Ignore LE.
Face down dead in snow.
Trump appoints Incitatus to lead corona virus response.
#KingDonaldsPlague
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Dolly
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3762

Post by Dolly »

Bj Soper
August 31 at 7:34am ·
Say what you want about Gavin.. But that is spot on. If people would have showed in Burns when we put the call out, Lavoy would not have been murdered. Instead we had a small trickle of people show, and the rest haunts me at night...
TIME TO STAND UP AGAINST TYRANNY. That means you may get arrested, hurt or even killed. STAND UP OR BOW DOWN....
LIFE, FORTUNE, AND SACRED HONOR.

<snipped Gavin's video:
WARNING for Militias and III%
We need to clean house and fast.>


https://archive.is/RiPnT

some of the comments:

Glenn Lord Sr. I was ready to go and from what I heard people were being turned away and told they weren't wanted there. Maybe it was bum skinny but I definitely heard it and supposedly from the protesters themselves. I was surprised but not going to crash anyone's party if I am not invited.
2 · August 31 at 3:14pm

Bj Soper That was the dis info hi way brother... For sure. We were beaten at our own game. Learning lessons for the next one
4 · August 31 at 3:18pm · Edited

Kevin Rhodes Ryan Payne did not want us there. They were butting heads with us on how it should be done. There is an audio recording of Ryan Payne saying that.
1 · September 1 at 3:07pm · Edited

Jason Harju I have messages on my phone from Ryan looking for "shooters" before this whole thing went down. He didn't come out right and say that but I knew where he was going with it. I told him I wouldn't discuss anything over the phone and if you wanted to drink some coffee with me I'll talk to him but that never happened.
1 · September 1 at 2:07pm

Kevin Rhodes Ryan Payne did not want us there. They were butting heads with us on how it should be done. There is an audio recording of Ryan Payne saying that.
4 · September 1 at 3:02pm · Edited
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Mockingbird
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3763

Post by Mockingbird »

Sedition glory
A R fifteens and blue tarps
Gunsmoke reruns grift.
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Estiveo
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3764

Post by Estiveo »

Snackless gun toters,
Trench poopers, dildo wavers.
Seditionist fools.

Let's see how long that lasts.
Image Image Image Image Image
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Dandelion
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3765

Post by Dandelion »

Daddy taught you wrong
As adults you went along
Now you are screwed
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NotaPerson
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3766

Post by NotaPerson »

Ammon Bundy leads
Patriot losers follow
Rest is history
Am I being detained?
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Mink
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3767

Post by Mink »

Dolly wrote:
Bj Soper
August 31 at 7:34am ·
Say what you want about Gavin.. But that is spot on. If people would have showed in Burns when we put the call out, Lavoy would not have been murdered. Instead we had a small trickle of people show, and the rest haunts me at night...
TIME TO STAND UP AGAINST TYRANNY. That means you may get arrested, hurt or even killed. STAND UP OR BOW DOWN....
LIFE, FORTUNE, AND SACRED HONOR.
:snippity:

Jason Harju I have messages on my phone from Ryan looking for "shooters" before this whole thing went down. He didn't come out right and say that but I knew where he was going with it. I told him I wouldn't discuss anything over the phone and if you wanted to drink some coffee with me I'll talk to him but that never happened.
1 · September 1 at 2:07pm

Kevin Rhodes Ryan Payne did not want us there. They were butting heads with us on how it should be done. There is an audio recording of Ryan Payne saying that.
4 · September 1 at 3:02pm · Edited
Holy crap. Holy crap. Holy crap. Not to mention... Holy crap.

Edited to add: I ran into some USFS firefighters today at a little wee local market when they were going off shift. They were brought down from the Las Padres to stop a fire in terrain that is just terrifyingly steep [I've actually been where they were and it's no joke] and awful and suffering from five years of drought. I quietly pulled them aside and told them how much they are beloved here and so appreciated and that people like the Bundys didn't represent people here (and they don't) and that in case they didn't know, the majority of Americans truly love and appreciate them for what they do. Pisses me off that I should even have to address the issue, but I wanted them to know and maybe tell others.
Quite Sane
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Plutodog
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3768

Post by Plutodog »

NotaPerson wrote:Ammon Bundy leads
Patriot losers follow
Rest is history
Great and appropriate haiku for that Statesman Journal story...I quoted you with attribution there. Thanks, Nota!
The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.
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NotaPerson
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3769

Post by NotaPerson »

Mink wrote:
Dolly wrote: Jason Harju I have messages on my phone from Ryan looking for "shooters" before this whole thing went down.
Holy crap. Holy crap. Holy crap. Not to mention... Holy crap.
Yeah I know. I remember Sheriff Ward saying something to the effect that Ryan Payne struck him as one scary dude.

Let's hope some of these messages recruiting shooters made their way into the hands of the FBI.
Am I being detained?
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woodworker
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3770

Post by woodworker »

rifleman1635 wrote:While I'm sure that many members of Mormonism are no doubt loyal to the US, that does not erase the fact that sedition and rebellion against the US (and duly elected local governments) have been an integral part of Mormon policy from the start.
All one has to do is research "Mormon Wars" to see the history of sedition and outright rebellion ... the State of Utah owes the people of the United States an apology and should pay reparations for their bad acts done under the color of law. Brigham Young should be posthumously tried for treason and all his property and the property of the Mormon Church should be forfeit for their treason, but that's just MHO.
It is clear that Defendants Bundy are all acting on their Mormon beliefs and anything less than a complete repudiation (including excommunication) shows that the Mormon Hierarchy is still complicit in such sedition and rebellion against the duly elected government of the US.
Rifleman1635:

As a non-mormon, but as a jew (which I believe qualifies as a religion that has endured persecution), IMHO your post is a load of crap. One of the tenets of our country is that we don't believe in collective punishment or attainder or corruption of blood. Whatever crimes someone may have committed in the past are not the basis for condemning those persons heirs unless those heirs continue the wrongful activities. I could go on but I think you get the idea. Your suggestion is despicable.
bring out the tumbrils. I am so fucking filled with pain and anger at what is going on in this country. I do deeply believe that if trump somehow retains power it will be the end of democracy in this country and the end of this country as we know it.
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DejaMoo
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3771

Post by DejaMoo »

ZekeB wrote:
noblepa wrote:I think that the Bundy's are Mormons in the same way the members of the Westboro Baptist Church are baptists.
Baptists and many other religions pick and choose the Bible passages that suit their own agenda. Doing so allows them to claim they are following the Bible. I've read the Book of Mormon. I can't find any passages that justify Bundy's actions.
Although they haven't explicitly come out and said so, it looks as though the Bundys and some of their friends/followers have developed their own splinter sect of Mormonism. According to Chris Zinda, who has been following the Bundy sagas
Many people do not know that Cliven Bundy, along with his former neighbor Keith Nay, self-published a book titled 'Nay Book' that is a combination of LDS theology and Skousen constitutional theory. Written in the late 1990s, it is the revelatory playbook that Cliven used in 2014 in Bunkerville and that his sons used in Malheur in 2016. It is a vivid example of how his 1950s–80s John Birch Society/Skousen indoctrination formulated his adulthood opinions that have since been passed on to his posterity and beyond.
Above from the Wikipedia entry for Citizens for Constitutional Freedom.

In another article authored by Zinda, he elaborates somewhat:
Cliven Bundy’s revelation was the Nay Book that combines LDS theology, apocalyptic end times, and Skousen Constitutionalism. The Nay Book was disclosed early in in the Malheur standoff by a now former Brigham Young University – Idaho professor who was concerned about the mixing of scripture with the objectives of those at the occupation. He travelled to Malheur, visited with the LDS contingent, and was allowed to take some photos of about one half. He graciously allowed me to use the Nay Book cover image in my piece about theo-constitutionalism and to describe it as,

“Written in the late 1990s, it is the revelatory playbook that Cliven used in 2014 in Bunkerville and that his sons used in Malheur in 2016. It is a vivid example of how his 1950s–80s John Birch Society/Skousen indoctrination formulated his adulthood opinions that have since been passed on to his posterity and beyond.”
So, it seems to me that Cliven and his neighbor Keith put together a book that comprises their beliefs based on a number of sources, including the Mormon Faith, the John Birch Society, and either a mixture of personal opinion or so-called personal revelation by Cliven and Keith. They believed in this enough to write it down and have it printed and bound. And the Bundys, at least, have grown up believing it as Truth.

I don't know how this works in the LDS faith, but if a practicing Roman Catholic began mixing RC doctrine with political notions and personal opinions (or, worse yet, religious revelations), went so far as to publish it and use with or instead of Church doctrine, and the church learned of it, they would be invited to have a meeting with their pastor. Maybe even the bishop.

The Bundys are probably smart enough to play the role of observant Mormons when around other members of the faith, and probably keep the Nay Book stuff a little closer to their chest. Since they're looking to start a political revolution first of all, they aren't going to want to get bogged down in religious controversy, until they make progress on the political side.

At this point I wonder if the LDS leadership is aware of this (I'd assume so), and what they think of it. They are supportive of the Western lands movement, so perhaps they were willing to overlook the Bundys' heresy as long as they were
A. Successful in their political endeavors, and
B. kept their heresy within their family.

On the other hand, as it becomes increasingly likely that the Bundys will be found guilty, the leadership might now find it more prudent to emphatically dissociate themselves from a group that is not just criminals, but criminals who didn't achieve their political goal. And if that's what the church decides, the Nay Book will prove extremely useful. Internally, it will provide the justification to discipline the entire Bundy clan. Externally, it will provide the evidence to support the church's claim that whatever the Bundys did, they were not using established church doctrine as justification, but rather a hodge-podge of beliefs cobbled together for their family's personal theology.
I've heard this bull before.
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maydijo
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3772

Post by maydijo »

DejaMoo wrote: :snippity:
So, it seems to me that Cliven and his neighbor Keith put together a book that comprises their beliefs based on a number of sources, including the Mormon Faith, the John Birch Society, and either a mixture of personal opinion or so-called personal revelation by Cliven and Keith. They believed in this enough to write it down and have it printed and bound. And the Bundys, at least, have grown up believing it as Truth.

I don't know how this works in the LDS faith, but if a practicing Roman Catholic began mixing RC doctrine with political notions and personal opinions (or, worse yet, religious revelations), went so far as to publish it and use with or instead of Church doctrine, and the church learned of it, they would be invited to have a meeting with their pastor. Maybe even the bishop.
:snippity:
I'm a bit confused as to whether you mean bishop in a Catholic sense or bishop in a Mormon sense. Within the LDS church the Bishop is the pastor.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Bundys have started or will start their own religious group. One of their ancestors (I believe it was Cliven's grandpappy?) started his own now-defunct sect; so there is some precedence for it within the family. It could also be why Ammon thinks he has the right to issue statements that are more befitting a prophet than a prisoner - as in his video telling women to quit their jobs and remain at home with their kids. These days, while there is still an "ideal" that women stay home and take care of their children, the official church line is that families are quite capable of making these decisions for themselves through prayer and study. In a Mormon context, this is usually referred to as "receiving revelation". Individuals receive revelations for themselves; husbands and wives receive revelation for their family; bishops receive revelation for their wards and stake presidents for their stake (with the understanding that any revelation which goes against the prophet is not divinely inspired), and only the prophet has the right to receive revelation for the entire LDS Church. Ammon is speaking as though he has the right to receive revelation for everyone. That is why I think Ammon thinks he's a prophet, which lends support to the idea that they have or will shortly have their own sect. (Indeed when this first started I kept thinking, They must belong to some weird off-shoot. They can't be real Mormons.)

The LDS Church came out with a statement in January denouncing the Bundys in what is (for the Church) very strong language. While there is a history within Mormonism of supporting this type of behaviour (the State of Deseret being the most obvious example) to my knowledge that behaviour is no longer condoned or supported. These days the Church is wealthy enough to purchase land for itself (and has extensive land holdings throughout the US). While historically the LDS Church used to provide material support to its followers, alas, those days are long gone now (unless you qualify for the church welfare program - which provides food, sometimes furniture or clothing, and may extend to paying your rent or the odd power bill; but certainly does not mean you get a farm handed to you.)

The Bundys claim that the government is trying to force the off their land; although they have presented no evidence to support this claim. IIRC the Bundy Ranch consists of about 100 acres and is worth about $60,000. If the government really wanted their land, surely they'd just offer well above the market price for it - What idiot wouldn't take, say, $500,000 for a worthless 100 acres of Nevada desert? (Yes, I know, we're talking about the Bundys here, they aren't your average idiots . . .)
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phaseolus
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3773

Post by phaseolus »

wasn't an ambush
wasn't an execution
Lavoy's dumb choices
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Mary Quite Contrary
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3774

Post by Mary Quite Contrary »

maydijo wrote:
DejaMoo wrote: :snippity:
So, it seems to me that Cliven and his neighbor Keith put together a book that comprises their beliefs based on a number of sources, including the Mormon Faith, the John Birch Society, and either a mixture of personal opinion or so-called personal revelation by Cliven and Keith. They believed in this enough to write it down and have it printed and bound. And the Bundys, at least, have grown up believing it as Truth.

I don't know how this works in the LDS faith, but if a practicing Roman Catholic began mixing RC doctrine with political notions and personal opinions (or, worse yet, religious revelations), went so far as to publish it and use with or instead of Church doctrine, and the church learned of it, they would be invited to have a meeting with their pastor. Maybe even the bishop.
:snippity:
I'm a bit confused as to whether you mean bishop in a Catholic sense or bishop in a Mormon sense. Within the LDS church the Bishop is the pastor.
:snippity:
Quick clarity for you (raised Irish Catholic with a Catholic school teaching mother-- it was rough),
Bishop in Catholicism oversees an area (territory like) of Catholic Churches. They aren't pastors in the Catholic religion but Priests, referred to as Father (add any name here).

In Christian religions they have pastors. I believe in some denominations the pastors are even married. Catholics don't allow priests or bishops to marry, ever. Hope this helps.

Welcome maydijo!
"My greatest hope is for inclusion and love for all humanity in 2017 and beyond." -Pharrell Williams
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Mary Quite Contrary
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Re: Bundy related gossip and discussion

#3775

Post by Mary Quite Contrary »

Mikey Arnold is a thief. O-live commentariat has been making haiku forever. Well atleast months and months.

They just call them finiku.
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