Bundy Trial Oregon Part I (Ammon et. al.)

HisMexcellence
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11976

Post by HisMexcellence »

Mink wrote:
1. MORNING ROUNDUP: 2 witnesses so far. 1. Travis Welter, FBI Agent who reviewed hundreds of video evid. 2. OSP officer.
2. In cross x with FBI agent, Mumford asks: "Is there are reason why you're looking at the Gov?""It's a free country."
:clap: :clap: :clap:

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Xibit
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11977

Post by Xibit »

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:9-21-16 All previous typos and misspellings are automatically converted to the proper form and spelling. Autocorrect is my sworn enemy and I forget to spellcheck. Deal with it. :snippity:
I posted your trial analysis on my Twitter feed, so many people love it that OPB wants to talk to you. If interested, contact:
Amelia Templeton‏@ameliaOPB

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Maybenaut
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11978

Post by Maybenaut »

rpenner wrote:
Maybenaut wrote:
rpenner wrote: 1312: Mumford raises the Simmons Rule to attempt to prevent introduction of Ammon Bundy's testimony on July 18 into the trial.

While I think it is still good law that Ammon's testimony cannot be used in the Government's case-in-chief, I don't know the 9th Circuit rule if it can be used to impeach Ammon Bundy if he takes the stand.

Likewise, I don't know if the Government exhibit is Ammon's testimony or his sworn affidavit attached to #892, and if that makes a difference. // ETA: I don't see that anyone ordered a transcript of the hearing itself.
I don't think his prior testimony is admissible. "Former testimony" under F.R.E. 804 is admissible if the declarant is "unavailable," and people who invoke the Fifth Amendment are considered unavailable, but that doesn't extend to the defendant under Simmons.

I don't think the affidavit is "former testimony," so different rules would apply. But I would like to see it in its entirety; I might have some ideas about its admissibility but I'd like to look at it before I say anything about it. I tried to find a link to it here, but I couldn't find it. Rpenner, do you have a link?
Just paid for it myself. Here you go:
ord-15105914384.pdf
Edit: Adding link to Jack's:
07-15-16 ECF 892-1 USA v A BUNDY et al - Declaration in Support of Motion for Release
Thanks! And thanks so much for gathering all these documents for us to read. When I come up for air I'll update my index. :oops: :bag:

I don't think this is "former testimony" under F.R.E. 804 because it's not "testimony."

It's hearsay, not falling under any exception to the hearsay rule, unless the government can show it qualifies as "residual hearsay" under Rule 807, meaning
(1) the statement has equivalent circumstantial guarantees of trustworthiness;
(2) it is offered as evidence of a material fact;
(3) it is more probative on the point for which it is offered than any other evidence that the proponent can obtain through reasonable efforts;and(4) admitting it will best serve the purposes of these rules and the interests of justice.
The residual hearsay rule also has a notice requirement.

I don't know whether they're talking about testimony or the declaration, but in either case, I hope the judge keeps it out. The government doesn't need any of that to convict, and I would hate to see them unnecessarily hand the defense an appellate issue.
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson

Tardis2016
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11979

Post by Tardis2016 »

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:Daily Poot Protest Report
8:25 Tuesday 9-20-16
Outside of Max O. Hatfield Courthouse
No protesting poots to be seen. No horsies. Where are they? I am here with no real dog in the fight, just a simple citizen observing the legal system at work.
11:50 Tuesday 9-20-16
Outside in front of Courthouse
One protesting poot with a posterboard sign saying "Let Our People Go". She has a white and black dog that looks like a thin border collie. In a separate group nearer to the street are David Brugger and two or three femaies. They don't have any signs, but they all have cigarettes. Now I REALLY want to go and ask them about their protest so I can enjoy the sweet smell of cigarette smoke. NOT.
4:50 Tuesday 9-20-1116
Doggie lady still there. My handsome sweet husband waiting for me near the street and near the smoking poots from earlier. No horsies. Catercorner from the courthouse are two poots. One is holding a yellow neon posterboard sign stating "Ranchers Lives Matter". They also have a United States flag.
Why do poots always have thin, malnourished animals? It makes me really sad! The kids and animals didn't ask to be raised by poots... :(
"Never trust a man, who left alone with a tea cozy...doesn't try it on." ~Billy Connolly

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SparklyFlitter
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11980

Post by SparklyFlitter »

realist wrote:
Beautiful Leaf wrote:
fierceredpanda wrote: :snippity:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Exactly. Although the simple reason none of the poots have a good economic argument to offer is because none of them have anything like the intellectual firepower to reason this out, or the motivation to even bother trying. I don't know who it was, but someone upthread was comparing Ryan Payne to Lenin and Stalin as far as political intelligence. I'm sorry, but that's laughable.All this movement ultimately boils down to is a temper tantrum about economic modernization, a changing culture that no longer sees armed white maleness as the supreme law of the land, and frustration that government might possibly recognize those facts. Oh, and also a bunch of crazy bullshit about Joseph Smith and the White Horse Prophecy, maybe.

Lenin and Stalin, butchers though they were, possessed deep insights into the realities of politics and economics and the structure of Russian society that allowed them to effect a revolution that plenty of geniuses couldn't get off the ground. The takeover at MWR was a good, old fashioned, American faux insurrection. The Whiskey Rebellion writ minuscule, basically.
Yeah, that would be me – a highly laughable commentator who also "conflates"basic legal information. I didn't respond yesterday because I had a migraine.

I understood from reading a.k.a. lurking on Fogbow for a couple of weeks that this was a place where one could spin out some ideas without getting slapped on the nose like a bad puppy. I did not say that Ammon Bundy or Ryan Payne are destined to stand shoulder to shoulder with others throughout history who tried to spark a revolution. I just find the constant dismissal and often over simplification of the driving forces behind these individuals including yes the "White Horse prophecy" is shortsighted.

Despite their failure this time, if we as a nation blithely dismiss what appears to be a growing dissatisfaction amongst people who are willing to bring weapons to wildlife refuge in order to get a chance to have their voices heard, down the road we may find ourselves asking how a bunch of idiots took over at the cost of so many lives.

Name a successful revolutionary whose demands or goals werent laughed at, mocked, and dismissed at the beginning. Some of those who succeeded we now respect and even hope to emulate. But at least just as often as we look approvingly at people like Gandhi and MLK Junior, we also look back in horror at how such a small group of "crazies" could bring about so much change.

While I honestly don't mind being told I'm in the minority or even mistaken, I do mind being told my ideas are laughable. I didn't join Fogbow so I could either mindlessly chime along with everyone nor to try to change everybody's mindset 180 degrees. I was hoping for an opportunity to spark honest debate. Maybe I'm just too new to the board and haven't earned my chops. However, I was on the shortlist for judicial appointment when I had to withdraw for family reasons so I'm not exactly a village idiot, either. I'll stick around for a while ( if allowed to do so after this rant) and maybe even venture another comment that doesn't simply give a thumbs up.
There's certainly no reason (at least certainly shouldn't be) not to present ideas that are not popular with all the "cool kids." In fact, it is encouraged.

I find nothing wrong with your ideas re the Bundys and their followers/supporters except for the fact that they (most if not all) adhere to and espouse so-called "sovereign citizen" ideals and believe they are not subject to the same laws and consequences for breaking them as other are. This is wrong. It is also dangerous, as has been shown countless times in the past and even more recently.

I have followed this particular type of idiot by their various names since at least the
'80s, to one degree or another and more so in the past several years, and find nothing about them funny. Though sometimes I do have to laugh at their thoughts that their BS view of the laws and the Constitution should be listened to/agreed with.
I agree that the Bundy's & their "revolution" need to be watched, and addressed, but I am not clear on where you stand as to what needs to be addressed. I think that we can find fault in our local governments, be they Assemblymen or State Senators/Reps. If these people spent any time educating their constituents on HOW our Constitution has set up our government, and pointed them in the correct direction as to legally address their grievances, then maybe they would follow that path. However, IMO, most of these people will never choose the path laid out in our Constitution, because they depend on people who are either uneducated themselves or have a nefarious agenda to educate them. They live in a bubble and reject any viewpoints that do not match their own. I'm not sure what we should do about that, we are certainly not going to order them to only listen to certain sources! If their government representatives addressed employment in a meaningful way (rather than the ol'standby of cutting taxes for businesses in the hopes that jobs will magically appear without added demand for products), bolster the education system, and see to it that people that are gainfully employed made more than poverty wages, then maybe a large swath of these people would not be so unhappy in the first place! When an industry dies out (ie. coal mining), it is up to the elected leaders of that community to serve the people by helping to bring other industries in, and/or assist workers with reeducation to fill jobs that are available. Just my two cents....

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NotaPerson
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11981

Post by NotaPerson »

For those who are new, and those who want a refresher, here is a look at how some of the fake patriots feel about Mark McConnell...

http://archive.is/p6Mim

Original Facebook post is from May.
Am I being detained?

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realist
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11982

Post by realist »

Tardis2016 wrote:Why do poots always have thin, malnourished animals? It makes me really sad! The kids and animals didn't ask to be raised by poots... :(
Where did you get the idea that what was posted re her dog shows that it's malnourished?

IMO it says she has a black and white dog that looks like a border collie if that collie were thin, not that hers is.
ImageX 4 ImageX36
Image

Tardis2016
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11983

Post by Tardis2016 »

The Kenosha Kid wrote:
Scario wrote: People keep saying how decent upstanding people the Bundy's are, so they are innocent... That's not how the legal system works. They broke the law. Law doesn't care if you are an upstanding decent person. You break the law, you do time.
Sadly though, that IS how juries work. I was once on a jury in a civil case, and during deliberations one woman kept going on about how 'slick' one of the attorneys was, with his 'fancy shoes.' It makes me worry about this case.

:rolleye:
Fortunately, non-poots tend to find the Bundys extremely off-putting and arrogant. Ammon thinks he is charming, but he just comes across like a wannabe prophet/snake oil salesman. His soft spoken, book of Mormon speaking style creeps normal people out and is obviously a shtick. Ryan comes across like a complete hillbilly and crazy. Unless there are poots on the jury, I'm not very worried. I don't think the defendants are particularly likeable and many of them are downright offensive and rude. Just my opinion, but I hope I'm right.
"Never trust a man, who left alone with a tea cozy...doesn't try it on." ~Billy Connolly

HighPlainsDrifter
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11984

Post by HighPlainsDrifter »

Tardis2016 wrote:
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:Daily Poot Protest Report
8:25 Tuesday 9-20-16
Outside of Max O. Hatfield Courthouse
No protesting poots to be seen. No horsies. Where are they? I am here with no real dog in the fight, just a simple citizen observing the legal system at work.
11:50 Tuesday 9-20-16
Outside in front of Courthouse
One protesting poot with a posterboard sign saying "Let Our People Go". She has a white and black dog that looks like a thin border collie. In a separate group nearer to the street are David Brugger and two or three femaies. They don't have any signs, but they all have cigarettes. Now I REALLY want to go and ask them about their protest so I can enjoy the sweet smell of cigarette smoke. NOT.
4:50 Tuesday 9-20-1116
Doggie lady still there. My handsome sweet husband waiting for me near the street and near the smoking poots from earlier. No horsies. Catercorner from the courthouse are two poots. One is holding a yellow neon posterboard sign stating "Ranchers Lives Matter". They also have a United States flag.
Why do poots always have thin, malnourished animals? It makes me really sad! The kids and animals didn't ask to be raised by poots... :(
A thin mammal - except those living in cold environment - is mostly in better shape than a fat one. We are used to see overfed animals (and humans ) and see this as normal. It is not.

Tardis2016
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11985

Post by Tardis2016 »

realist wrote:
Tardis2016 wrote:Why do poots always have thin, malnourished animals? It makes me really sad! The kids and animals didn't ask to be raised by poots... :(
Where did you get the idea that what was posted re her dog shows that it's malnourished?

IMO it says she has a black and white dog that looks like a border collie if that collie were thin, not that hers is.
People don't usually describe healthy animals as "thin." I worked in a vet's office for a few years and people usually described their pets as "thin" when they were concerned about them being underweight. That's my perception of that particular adjective. Original observer, please feel free to correct me if I took that the wrong way. I would love to see a poot with a healthy animal, but so far, they've all been underweight and sick looking.
"Never trust a man, who left alone with a tea cozy...doesn't try it on." ~Billy Connolly

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Volkonski
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11986

Post by Volkonski »

Chris Liedle ‏@chrisliedle 13m
13 minutes ago

R. Bundy argued institutional bias by FBI. OSP Tpr Beckert: not my job to prove innocent or guilty. My job is to make arrest
Hope we get more details about Ryan Bundy's thoughts about FBI bias.

OK-
Karina Brown ‏@karinapdx 9m
9 minutes ago

Ryan: "those there at traffic stop, those that investigated & went thru all our stuff at refuge, they're all the same men"
Karina Brown ‏@karinapdx 14m
14 minutes ago

Argued active investigation into possible FBI coverup would motivate agency to portray occupiers as violent extremists
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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rpenner
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11987

Post by rpenner »

Edit: Adding link to Jack's
09/21/2016 1313 Proposed Jury Instructions by Kenneth Medenbach (Schindler, Matthew) (Entered: 09/21/2016)
gov.uscourts.ord.125526.1313.0.pdf
1313 Mockingbird Lane, Mockingbird Heights, California was the address of the Munsters.

Medenbach asks for model jury instructions 8.22 and 8.24 to be included. This may hint at a defense plan.

See notes:
http://www3.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instr ... f#page=197
http://www3.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instr ... f#page=199

c.f. 1242 Preliminary Jury Instructions
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Volkonski
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11988

Post by Volkonski »

Conrad Wilson ‏@conradjwilson 16m
16 minutes ago

"So was the round that was shot into my shoulder, was that lethal or non-lethal," Ryan Bundy asked trooper Beckert during cross
:roll: How could Beckert possibly know what was in Ryan's shoulder?
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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Mink
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11989

Post by Mink »

Lunch Time Tweet Sheet for 21 September 2016

All extraneous stuff removed.

Early morning Tweet Sheet: http://thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 45#p821945
Midmorning Tweet Sheet: http://thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 32#p822032

Maxine (Oregonian)
begin 12:07pm pst

1. RBundy to OSP trooper:'So the round that was shot into my shoulder,' was that lethal or non-lethal?'
2. Judge didn't let OSP trooper answer that question about round shot into Ryan Bundy's shoulder ; found it irrelevant
3. RBundy urged the judge to allow ?ing about Finicum shooting, alleging institutional bias by FBI, same agency that investigated occupation
4. Feds again said they're not calling any of FBI HRT agents under investigation to witness stand in this case
5. Judge:What happened with/ Finicum's shooting does not bear on defendants' mental state& decision to do what they did

Conrad Wilson (OPB)
begin 12:10pm pst

1. OSP Trooper Jeremiah Beckert referred to the arrest operation as a "high risk traffic stop."
2. Ryan Bundy, during cross, said the informants name was "Mark McConnell."
3. During cross OSP Trooper Beckert said the informant provided both a "threat assessment" and the location of the vehicles
4. Ryan "Bundy was taken to the hospital for a shoulder injury, possibly for shrapnel," trooper Becker said
5. "So was the round that was shot into my shoulder, was that lethal or non-lethal," Ryan Bundy asked trooper Beckert during cross
6. Prosecutors objected
7. Outside the jury's presence there was a robust convo. Defense teams wanted to discuss Finicum's shooting.
8. Defendants were arguing there was bias and wanted to explore the shooting of Finicum in cross examination. But Judge Brown said nope.

Eileen Park (KOIN)
begin 12:11pm pst

1. A man who was in the same vehicle with Ammon BUNDY and Cavalier at the time of the arrests, was an informant. McConnell.
2. JUDGE: "We are NOT litigating what happened to Lavoy Finicum." Mumford still attempts to bring it up 3 times in cross x.
3. R. Bundy to OSP in cross x: "So the round shot into my shoulder, was it meant to be lethal?" GOV: Objection Judge: Sustained
4. R. Bundy to OSP: "As an officer of the US, don't you have the obligation to uphold the Constitution?" Objection sustained.

Karina Brown (Courthouse News)
begin 12:15pm pst

1. Ryan to OSP: so Mark McConnell was an informant? OSP said yes, didn't know if member of "three-letter agency" or if paid.
2. Defs again tried to get judge to admit evidence re: FBI shots fired during operation to arrest Finicum, Cox, Ryan Bundy.
3. Argued active investigation into possible FBI coverup would motivate agency to portray occupiers as violent extremists
4. Ryan: "those there at traffic stop, those that investigated & went thru all our stuff at refuge, they're all the same men"
5. Brown:"Whatever happened w Mr. Finicum, whether justified or not, doesn't bear on state of mind of those arrested that day"

Leah Sottile (independent major print journalist)
begin 12:15pm pst

1. On cross exam of Beckert, many questions about OC rounds and non lethal rounds fired at Finicum's truck
2. Harris asked about if occupants of truck may have been scared to comply with orders bc of OC rounds, flash bangs and no lethal rounds
3. Harris: "can fear for ones personal safety delay compliance?" Beckert: "it's called fight or flight." Harris: "Or sit and be scared."
4. Ryan Bundy asked a # of ?s. His best: "so the round you shot into my shoulder - was that lethal or non lethal?" Objection, obvi.
5. R Bundy also asked if traffic vio needed to stop the vehicles. "We can arrest, as troopers, based on probable cause or reasonable suspicion"
6. Also clear: Beckert confirmed OS canisters fired at the truck produce no shrapnel. Said windows are safety glass - again, no shrapnel.
7. Stray observations: Judge Brown has no patience w/ Mumford. But today, she's also been v. impatient w/ R.Bundy, Harris,AUSA Gabriel & Barrow
8. However, me saying this is not different than people criticizing H. Clinton for being too stern. Fucking patriarchy, man! IT GETS US ALL
9. Also, can I motion for the marshals to allow water or cough drops? Because there are some srsly wet coughs in the gallery and its gross

Chris Liedle (KATU)
begin 12:19pm pst

1. R. Bundy argued institutional bias by FBI. OSP Tpr Beckert: not my job to prove innocent or guilty. My job is to make arrest
2. R Bundy talks about L. Finicum. Judge: Do not bring up LaVoy.

end 12:45pm pst
###

edited to change "am" to "pm"
Quite Sane

gshevlin
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11990

Post by gshevlin »

Volkonski wrote:
Conrad Wilson ‏@conradjwilson 16m
16 minutes ago

"So was the round that was shot into my shoulder, was that lethal or non-lethal," Ryan Bundy asked trooper Beckert during cross
:roll: How could Beckert possibly know what was in Ryan's shoulder?
If I was trooper Beckert, I would be very tempted to answer "well given that you are here right now asking me this question, I think it must have been non-lethal, you blithering idiot". But that's just me...

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OregonBorn
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11991

Post by OregonBorn »

Tardis2016 wrote:
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:Daily Poot Protest Report
8:25 Tuesday 9-20-16
Outside of Max O. Hatfield Courthouse
No protesting poots to be seen. No horsies. Where are they? I am here with no real dog in the fight, just a simple citizen observing the legal system at work.
11:50 Tuesday 9-20-16
Outside in front of Courthouse
One protesting poot with a posterboard sign saying "Let Our People Go". She has a white and black dog that looks like a thin border collie. In a separate group nearer to the street are David Brugger and two or three femaies. They don't have any signs, but they all have cigarettes. Now I REALLY want to go and ask them about their protest so I can enjoy the sweet smell of cigarette smoke. NOT.
4:50 Tuesday 9-20-1116
Doggie lady still there. My handsome sweet husband waiting for me near the street and near the smoking poots from earlier. No horsies. Catercorner from the courthouse are two poots. One is holding a yellow neon posterboard sign stating "Ranchers Lives Matter". They also have a United States flag.
Why do poots always have thin, malnourished animals? It makes me really sad! The kids and animals didn't ask to be raised by poots... :(
Thank you for your excellent details. The visuals your words evoke are much appreciated.
Look for good and you will find it. Look for evil and it will surround you.
In life.. it takes far more positive actions to balance or erase a negative..

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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11992

Post by Volkonski »

David Krug
‏@davidkrugfilm
A couple protesters on the corner again. & A couple in front of the courthouse. #Oregonstandoff

Image
Not even a handful. ;)
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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ZekeB
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11993

Post by ZekeB »

gshevlin wrote:If I was trooper Beckert, I would be very tempted to answer "well given that you are here right now asking me this question, I think it must have been non-lethal, you blithering idiot". But that's just me...
Wait... was it Ryan Bundy or RYAN BUNDY who asked the trooper that question?
Trump: Er hat eine größere Ente als ich.

Putin: Du bist kleiner als ich.

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Whip
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11994

Post by Whip »

fierceredpanda wrote:
Volkonski wrote:
Conrad Wilson ‏@conradjwilson 14m
14 minutes ago

The driver of Ammon Bundy's jeep during arrest was working as a police informant, OSP trooper testified
Maxine Bernstein ‏@maxoregonian 22m
22 minutes ago

Mark McConnell was a cooperating govt informant who helped provide info about occupation leaders driving from refuge 1/26
As some suspected.
I predict this will have no effect on the level of paranoid suspicion among the Bundistas. :sarcasm:
lol. facebook is going to go into a tailspin

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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11995

Post by gshevlin »

ZekeB wrote:
gshevlin wrote:If I was trooper Beckert, I would be very tempted to answer "well given that you are here right now asking me this question, I think it must have been non-lethal, you blithering idiot". But that's just me...
Wait... was it Ryan Bundy or RYAN BUNDY who asked the trooper that question?
Ah, I see what you just did there...

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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11996

Post by BillTheCat »

Whip wrote:
fierceredpanda wrote:
Volkonski wrote:


As some suspected.
I predict this will have no effect on the level of paranoid suspicion among the Bundistas. :sarcasm:
lol. facebook is going to go into a tailspin
Which? Linky?
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.'
-Lewis Carroll

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Whip
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11997

Post by Whip »

gshevlin wrote:
Volkonski wrote:
Conrad Wilson ‏@conradjwilson 16m
16 minutes ago

"So was the round that was shot into my shoulder, was that lethal or non-lethal," Ryan Bundy asked trooper Beckert during cross
:roll: How could Beckert possibly know what was in Ryan's shoulder?
If I was trooper Beckert, I would be very tempted to answer "well given that you are here right now asking me this question, I think it must have been non-lethal, you blithering idiot". But that's just me...
I think I would have fallen off the chair if I read a response was "there's nothing in your shoulder".

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Whip
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11998

Post by Whip »

ZekeB wrote:
gshevlin wrote:If I was trooper Beckert, I would be very tempted to answer "well given that you are here right now asking me this question, I think it must have been non-lethal, you blithering idiot". But that's just me...
Wait... was it Ryan Bundy or RYAN BUNDY who asked the trooper that question?
it was ryan bundy:of the idiot family c................or something like that.

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Whip
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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#11999

Post by Whip »

BillTheCat wrote:
Whip wrote:
fierceredpanda wrote:
I predict this will have no effect on the level of paranoid suspicion among the Bundistas. :sarcasm:
lol. facebook is going to go into a tailspin
Which? Linky?
I don't do facebook but anticipate many screenshots today.

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Re: Bundy Trials - Oregon

#12000

Post by Mink »

EENEWS Bundy convictions vital to U.S. crackdown on land militants http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060043184
Quite Sane

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