SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

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Epectitus
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14026

Post by Epectitus »

Cheri Roberts wrote:Anyone know how old this Finicum daughter ,who is so willing to die, is?
That would be Tean Finicum. 18 years old.
"Hell, I would wear a dress and ruby red slippers all year if we can prove this" - Mike Zullo

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Dan1100
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14027

Post by Dan1100 »

Epectitus wrote:From the St Louis Tribune article on Jeanette Finucum:

:snippity:
You mean Salt Lake City Tribune, not St. Louis.

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Mikedunford
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14028

Post by Mikedunford »

I'm just reading through the released shooting reports now, and doubt I'll get through all of it tonight, but there are some things I'm finding interesting. In particular, there are quite a few hints
P.47:
OFFICER NO. 3844: When we met with you later that night and we were taking photographs of the specific equipment that you were wearing, you weren't wearing a regular set of uniform. Was there a specific tactical reason why you weren't wearing a normal set of ВDU'ѕ or that type of thing?

THE WIТNЕЅЅ: Yes. Because we were operating in the town of Burns, and we knew that there was a lot of surveillance being done by militia members, for lack of a better term, and that we were in unmarked vehicles and we wanted to keep our identity as discreet as possible, especially because we knewwe had been given information from the FBI that they had people that were watching different areas and would call and provide people at the refuge with information about vehicle movements.
That's another bit of data supporting assumptions that the feds were very closely monitoring all the electronic communications of the group.
P.70:
I knew in December that there was people from out of state, specifically I knew Arnmon Bundy and Jason Patrick and others were in Homey County. I went in a meeting, I don't know the date, in mid later third of December with the sheriffs office and all the local partners, and were there in discussing, you know, the overall situation and what it could turn into and what they wero experiencing to that point.
So these nutburgers were on everyone's radar by mid-December, and the locals had already brought OSP in, but there might not have been joint information sharing between state and local at that point. ("all the local partners.")

P.70-71: There's information there indicating that the "militia" were surveilling OSP SWAT members. The redaction appears to include information regarding this; I suspect the redaction relates to the investigation into the standoff rather thanto the shooting investigation.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

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Epectitus
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14029

Post by Epectitus »

Dan1100 wrote:
Epectitus wrote:From the St Louis Tribune article on Jeanette Finucum:

:snippity:
You mean Salt Lake City Tribune, not St. Louis.
Why yes... that would be correct! :oops:
"Hell, I would wear a dress and ruby red slippers all year if we can prove this" - Mike Zullo

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Dr. Blue
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14030

Post by Dr. Blue »

Cheri Roberts wrote: One particular thing that irritates the crap outta me is all those claiming weather is the reason. That it was so cold blah blah blah. Now let me preface the rest with, if FBI continues to cover whatever the whatever up, I CAN see them possibly trying to claim weather as an excuse ... BUT OSP and Portland FBI ... live in OR. :snippity:
Do you see any indication whatsoever that the FBI is trying to cover anything up? I see the FBI investigating why certain agents were not honest, but that's individual agents - and it's far, far different from the FBI covering something up.

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Azastan
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14031

Post by Azastan »

Mikedunford wrote:

THE WIТNЕЅЅ: Yes. Because we were operating in the town of Burns, and we knew that there was a lot of surveillance being done by militia members, for lack of a better term, and that we were in unmarked vehicles and we wanted to keep our identity as discreet as possible, especially because we knewwe had been given information from the FBI that they had people that were watching different areas and would call and provide people at the refuge with information about vehicle movements.
That's another bit of data supporting assumptions that the feds were very closely monitoring all the electronic communications of the group.
P.70:
I knew in December that there was people from out of state, specifically I knew Arnmon Bundy and Jason Patrick and others were in Homey County. I went in a meeting, I don't know the date, in mid later third of December with the sheriffs office and all the local partners, and were there in discussing, you know, the overall situation and what it could turn into and what they wero experiencing to that point.
So these nutburgers were on everyone's radar by mid-December, and the locals had already brought OSP in, but there might not have been joint information sharing between state and local at that point. ("all the local partners.")

P.70-71: There's information there indicating that the "militia" were surveilling OSP SWAT members. The redaction appears to include information regarding this; I suspect the redaction relates to the investigation into the standoff rather than to the shooting investigation.
I'm going to make a wild stab at a guess, and figure that the reason the first attempt at a felony stop didn't occur is because Sheriff Palmer might have been informed, and he relayed the info to the occupying terrorists. FBI found out about it after listening to chatter on phones/social media and cancelled. After that, the decision was made to keep Palmer out of the loop.

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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14032

Post by Mikedunford »

Cheri Roberts wrote:
Volkonski wrote:Cheri Roberts has listed 94 items of interest from the Deschutes Sheriff's reports.

https://challengingtherhetoric.wordpres ... -finnicum/
Thank you, Volkonski :dance:
Regarding your points 4 & 15 - the called-off Friday operation. I think you are slightly conflating two things. As I read it, there was consideration given during the planning for the final operation to a possible site for the traffic stop that was farther up 395, in Grant County, but that they ultimately decided on the location closer to Bend. That was separate from the Friday operation that wound up being cancelled, and there weren't really any significant details given for that.
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14033

Post by Hercule Parrot »

My favourite so far from the released papers - p85, lines 24-5. Describes the HRT officers standing on "little stepstools" behind the northern roadblock trucks. Maybe they have very small officers, or very big trucks, but it appeals to my sense of absurdity. No report yet on what the OSP officers used, but I'm hoping for pogo sticks to be mentioned....

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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14034

Post by Grumpy Old Guy »

Dr. Blue wrote:
Cheri Roberts wrote:
Do you see any indication whatsoever that the FBI is trying to cover anything up? I see the FBI investigating why certain agents were not honest, but that's individual agents - and it's far, far different from the FBI covering something up.
I think the FBI shooter(s) thought he/she/they had missed completely and decided that they did not need to give the anti-government crowd the opportunity to scream. However, like Watergate, their cover-up turned out worse than the event itself.

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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14035

Post by Cheri Roberts »

Dr. Blue wrote:
Cheri Roberts wrote: One particular thing that irritates the crap outta me is all those claiming weather is the reason. That it was so cold blah blah blah. Now let me preface the rest with, if FBI continues to cover whatever the whatever up, I CAN see them possibly trying to claim weather as an excuse ... BUT OSP and Portland FBI ... live in OR. :snippity:
Do you see any indication whatsoever that the FBI is trying to cover anything up? I see the FBI investigating why certain agents were not honest, but that's individual agents - and it's far, far different from the FBI covering something up.
LOL no "I" don't think the "FBI" as an entity is covering anything up and yes, if anyone is, it's the 5 under investigation. I should have clarified 'if the 5 feds..."

Cheri Roberts
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14036

Post by Cheri Roberts »

Mikedunford wrote:
Cheri Roberts wrote:
Volkonski wrote:Cheri Roberts has listed 94 items of interest from the Deschutes Sheriff's reports.

https://challengingtherhetoric.wordpres ... -finnicum/
Thank you, Volkonski :dance:
Regarding your points 4 & 15 - the called-off Friday operation. I think you are slightly conflating two things. As I read it, there was consideration given during the planning for the final operation to a possible site for the traffic stop that was farther up 395, in Grant County, but that they ultimately decided on the location closer to Bend. That was separate from the Friday operation that wound up being cancelled, and there weren't really any significant details given for that.
No, those ARE two different things and listed as such.

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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14037

Post by Cheri Roberts »

Hercule Parrot wrote:My favourite so far from the released papers - p85, lines 24-5. Describes the HRT officers standing on "little stepstools" behind the northern roadblock trucks. Maybe they have very small officers, or very big trucks, but it appeals to my sense of absurdity. No report yet on what the OSP officers used, but I'm hoping for pogo sticks to be mentioned....
LOL yes that part actually made me giggle. I'd imagine if you are using a tall vehicle as a cover you need tobe able to get your sight and your weapon above it to shoot if you need too shoot. So silly aside it made sense, I just would like to visually see one of the 'little stepstools' for my own curiosity lol.

On the other, yes, one OSP officer said in their somewhere they they use or have "ladders' of some sort, forget exact term. However, did not say they used them that I remember.

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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14038

Post by Cheri Roberts »

Azastan wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:

THE WIТNЕЅЅ: Yes. Because we were operating in the town of Burns, and we knew that there was a lot of surveillance being done by militia members, for lack of a better term, and that we were in unmarked vehicles and we wanted to keep our identity as discreet as possible, especially because we knewwe had been given information from the FBI that they had people that were watching different areas and would call and provide people at the refuge with information about vehicle movements.
That's another bit of data supporting assumptions that the feds were very closely monitoring all the electronic communications of the group.
P.70:
I knew in December that there was people from out of state, specifically I knew Arnmon Bundy and Jason Patrick and others were in Homey County. I went in a meeting, I don't know the date, in mid later third of December with the sheriffs office and all the local partners, and were there in discussing, you know, the overall situation and what it could turn into and what they wero experiencing to that point.
So these nutburgers were on everyone's radar by mid-December, and the locals had already brought OSP in, but there might not have been joint information sharing between state and local at that point. ("all the local partners.")

P.70-71: There's information there indicating that the "militia" were surveilling OSP SWAT members. The redaction appears to include information regarding this; I suspect the redaction relates to the investigation into the standoff rather than to the shooting investigation.
I'm going to make a wild stab at a guess, and figure that the reason the first attempt at a felony stop didn't occur is because Sheriff Palmer might have been informed, and he relayed the info to the occupying terrorists. FBI found out about it after listening to chatter on phones/social media and cancelled. After that, the decision was made to keep Palmer out of the loop.
Should go back and revisit the date(s) of the Palmer meeting.

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Butterfly Bilderberg
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14039

Post by Butterfly Bilderberg »

This thread is moving so fast I can't keep up with what has been posted. Anyway, I'm not sure whether this link http://1tjy1il8myg2badl72uj53gv.wpengin ... keover.pdf to emails obtained by ???? from the Governor's Office through the Oregon freedom of information act have been posted, but from the emails it is clear that (1) the Bundys and their buddies who arrived in November were stalking and harassing public employees, and (2) law enforcement was already surveilling these folks.

A November 25, 2015 to the Governor's staff describes some of the intimidation tactics employed by these "citizen militia" members in Harney County weeks before the occupation of the wildlife reserve. It is downright frightening:

The series of escalation includes:
- Southern Oregon staffer being watched, followed on foot and followed in her
car while working in Southern Oregon

- Escalated to being watched and followed in and around her hometown
- Her vehicle consistently being followed when getting on the highway
- Flyers and notes left on her vehicle
- Chatter on facebook/social media pages with vague threats/intimidation
tactics
- Approaching of friends and family
- Indications of people on her property
- People approaching her house
- Vehicle tampered with: loosened lug nuts
- Contact by a FBI Agent who expressed concerned for her safety & security.
Agent indicated that those doing the intimidation are sophisticated enough to
know what is a legal threat and what is not.
"Pity the nation that acclaims the bully as hero,
and that deems the glittering conqueror bountiful."
- Kahlil Gibran, The Garden of The Prophet

Cheri Roberts
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14040

Post by Cheri Roberts »

Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Dr. Blue wrote:
Cheri Roberts wrote:
Do you see any indication whatsoever that the FBI is trying to cover anything up? I see the FBI investigating why certain agents were not honest, but that's individual agents - and it's far, far different from the FBI covering something up.
I think the FBI shooter(s) thought he/she/they had missed completely and decided that they did not need to give the anti-government crowd the opportunity to scream. However, like Watergate, their cover-up turned out worse than the event itself.
Completely possible however seems the #1 "possibility" I am getting bombarded with ... actually NOT from the 'conspiracy crowd' ... is the weather thing and I completely disagree weather would have been a factor for many reasons of which I am currently compiling.

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realist
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14041

Post by realist »

Butterfly Bilderberg wrote:This thread is moving so fast I can't keep up with what has been posted. Anyway, I'm not sure whether this link http://1tjy1il8myg2badl72uj53gv.wpengin ... keover.pdf to emails obtained by ???? From the Governor's Office through the Oregon freedom of information act have been posted, but from the emails it is clear that (1) the Bundys and their buddies who arrived in November were stalking and harassing public employees, and (2) law enforcement was already surveilling these folks.

A November 25, 2015 to the Governor's staff describes some of the intimidation tactics employed by these "citizen militia" members in Harney County weeks before the occupation of the wildlife reserve. It is downright frightening:

The series of escalation includes:
- Southern Oregon staffer being watched, followed on foot and followed in her
car while working in Southern Oregon

- Escalated to being watched and followed in and around her hometown
- Her vehicle consistently being followed when getting on the highway
- Flyers and notes left on her vehicle
- Chatter on facebook/social media pages with vague threats/intimidation
tactics
- Approaching of friends and family
- Indications of people on her property
- People approaching her house
- Vehicle tampered with: loosened lug nuts
- Contact by a FBI Agent who expressed concerned for her safety & security.
Agent indicated that those doing the intimidation are sophisticated enough to
know what is a legal threat and what is not.
It was posted up thread and is at Jack's, but I agree, some really interesting stuff in there.

I also agree it's difficult to keep up with the thread.
ImageX 4 ImageX36
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particularindividual
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14042

Post by particularindividual »

Cheri Roberts wrote:

On the other, yes, one OSP officer said in their somewhere they they use or have "ladders' of some sort, forget exact term. However, did not say they used them that I remember.
SWAT stools? Check.

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Plutodog
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14043

Post by Plutodog »

Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Dr. Blue wrote:
Cheri Roberts wrote:
Do you see any indication whatsoever that the FBI is trying to cover anything up? I see the FBI investigating why certain agents were not honest, but that's individual agents - and it's far, far different from the FBI covering something up.
I think the FBI shooter(s) thought he/she/they had missed completely and decided that they did not need to give the anti-government crowd the opportunity to scream. However, like Watergate, their cover-up turned out worse than the event itself.
That was my feeling -- "Cool, arrest mission accomplished and Finicum threat neutralized without our wild shots hitting anything and only OSP involved in the shooting. It might dampen some anti-fed nutjobs cries of 'Murder!, Cover-up!' if they don't know we even shot any bullets so let's just forget those shots happened." Can't imagine why else they'd shut up unless maybe they think they shot prematurely as well.
The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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YellowMustard
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14044

Post by YellowMustard »

Plutodog wrote:
Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Dr. Blue wrote:
I think the FBI shooter(s) thought he/she/they had missed completely and decided that they did not need to give the anti-government crowd the opportunity to scream. However, like Watergate, their cover-up turned out worse than the event itself.
That was my feeling -- "Cool, arrest mission accomplished and Finicum threat neutralized without our wild shots hitting anything and only OSP involved in the shooting. It might dampen some anti-fed nutjobs cries of 'Murder!, Cover-up!' if they don't know we even shot any bullets so let's just forget those shots happened." Can't imagine why else they'd shut up unless maybe they think they shot prematurely as well.
The only cover up I see possible is if their higher-ups told the shooter not to report it for that same reason.
----IANAL----

Call me old fashioned, but I always thought patriotism was something we share, not use against each other. - Mrs. Betty Bowers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xV8HHFtg7w

Cheri Roberts
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14045

Post by Cheri Roberts »

YellowMustard wrote:
Plutodog wrote:
Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
I think the FBI shooter(s) thought he/she/they had missed completely and decided that they did not need to give the anti-government crowd the opportunity to scream. However, like Watergate, their cover-up turned out worse than the event itself.
That was my feeling -- "Cool, arrest mission accomplished and Finicum threat neutralized without our wild shots hitting anything and only OSP involved in the shooting. It might dampen some anti-fed nutjobs cries of 'Murder!, Cover-up!' if they don't know we even shot any bullets so let's just forget those shots happened." Can't imagine why else they'd shut up unless maybe they think they shot prematurely as well.
The only cover up I see possible is if their higher-ups told the shooter not to report it for that same reason.
That would then mean more than just the 5 agents lying.

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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14046

Post by RoadScholar »

The thing is, Cheri, the only reasons for the FBI agents' disavowal of their shots you mentioned at first was that they were afraid their firing was "wrong/illegal/unjustified" but neglected to consider "embarrassing." 8-)
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

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Mikedunford
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14047

Post by Mikedunford »

Cheri Roberts wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:
Cheri Roberts wrote:
Thank you, Volkonski :dance:
Regarding your points 4 & 15 - the called-off Friday operation. I think you are slightly conflating two things. As I read it, there was consideration given during the planning for the final operation to a possible site for the traffic stop that was farther up 395, in Grant County, but that they ultimately decided on the location closer to Bend. That was separate from the Friday operation that wound up being cancelled, and there weren't really any significant details given for that.
No, those ARE two different things and listed as such.
Here are the two points in question:
4: PG 76: The Friday before a plan was being put in place for a similar felony traffic stop in Grant County.
15: PG 96: Another mention of the previous similar plan the Fri before that was shelved by FBI.
As far as I can tell, there's nothing in the released documents that suggests that the Friday plan involved anything in Grant County. There's also nothing that I can recall (or find after briefly skimming this thread) that suggests that the refuge morons were planning on going to Grant County that Friday.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
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Plutodog
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14048

Post by Plutodog »

How to twist reality, Finicum style (Lavoy's brother wonders why the mean ol' cops get to carry and shoot their guns because Lavoy might shoot but the reverse isn't considered fine and dandy too (which presumably means Lavoy shouldn't have been shot at):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-kHCIvPU3o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6uOk3IMXaY
The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Mikedunford
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14049

Post by Mikedunford »

RoadScholar wrote:The thing is, Cheri, the only reasons for the FBI agents' disavowal of their shots you mentioned at first was that they were afraid their firing was "wrong/illegal/unjustified" but neglected to consider "embarrassing." 8-)
Indeed. Something that crossed my mind while I was reading the interviews, and which is still there after I had a look at the layout of the final stop again: the two FBI shots might have been taken without due regard to where OSP Officer 3 was at the time. OSP Officers 1 & 2 were positioned so that they had Officer 3 in view, and knew he/she wasn't downrange of their shots. I don't think that can be said of the FBI shots - I think OSP 3 was downrange of those two rounds.
Edit: That might also explain why Officer 3's statement isn't in the packet - if most of it was focused on him/her almost getting shot by the FBI, so much would have been redacted that they might have decided to leave it out entirely.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

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mimi
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Re: SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge

#14050

Post by mimi »

Epectitus wrote:
realist wrote:We all know they had been ordered out at the initial stop. At that point those remaining in Finicum's truck had refused to surrender.
A side note from this detail. Cox's video contrasts egregiously with her repeated testimony of that moment in the days and weeks following the shooting. In her first broadcast account, Cox related that "Victoria says, 'I'm not getting out.' And I go 'I'm not getting out, they're shooting at us.' And I'm not about to leave her." In later interviews she describes her decision to stay as her "motherly instinct kicking in" because Sharp is supposedly terrified.

But the tape shows that the entire exchange went like this:
OSP: Send the women out.
Cox: What for?
Finicum: Well I’m goin’ ask ‘em if they want to get out.
Cox: What for? Why are we gettin’…
FInicum: You want out?
Cox: What for? What are we getting out for?
That's it. That's the whole exchange.
Yep. She is one cold woman (as noted by the cop in the report. Upon the death of her friend, she quizzes law enforcement as to whether they've read the Constitution.)

Shortly after that exchange, the motherly Cox...

Sharp: Did they have Ryan [Payne]? Did they arrest him?
Cox: Shhhh
Ryan Bundy: He shouldn't have got out.
Cox: He shouldn't have got out.

Then...

Finicum: I'm going to Grant County to see the sheriff.
Cox: Well, if we duck, and you drive, what are they gonna do? Try and knock us out? How much further do we gotta go?
Sharp: They'll probably... they'll shoot your tires out.
Finicum: We got about 50 ought miles.


At what point did the 'motherly love' kick in?

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