Finicum Lawsuit

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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#226

Post by RVInit » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:29 am

woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm
We must all remember, given that it is told to us every time a black person is shot, that we can't substitute our post-incident judgment for that fraction of a second during which law enforcement must act -- and if it is good enough for all those persons killed who had no gun and who had done nothing wrong and who actually posed no threat to law enforcement or others, IMHO it is good enough for that POS Finicum.
Except that this particular incident was not a matter of an officer having a split second of time to make a decision. POS Finicum reached for that weapon at least twice. OSP went out of their way to not shoot that man. The officer with the taser made an absolutely Herculean effort, in snow up to his knees, to get close enough to hit Finicum with the taser so that nobody had to shoot him with a gun. Nobody is responsible for Finicum's death aside from Finicum. He worked himself into a state where he gave himself no other choice. All that rhetoric he spewed for 40 days and 40 nights ended pretty much the only way it could end.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#227

Post by Dave at Sea » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:06 am

Their sick cause needed a Martyr and Bob volunteered.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#228

Post by Curmudgeon » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:12 pm

I'm sure there's a strategy in place to deal with these scum, but it would do my heart good to see each of the defendants file a frivolous-lawsuit counter-suit against each of the plaintiffs.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#229

Post by RVInit » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:29 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:12 pm
I'm sure there's a strategy in place to deal with these scum, but it would do my heart good to see each of the defendants file a frivolous-lawsuit counter-suit against each of the plaintiffs.
:yeah: I'd like to see them awarded any attorney's fees and also a large amount of money for the hassle and also a large amount of money for each and every instance of social media harassment and for death threats. I can understand that it's a difficult thing to accept the fact that a loved one engaged in activity that resulted in their death, but in this case there is a frikken video that is pretty damn clear the man was attempting to get his right hand inside a left hand pocket where a gun was found. Hell, he finally resorted to using his left hand to pull the jacket open so that his right hand would have better access. It simply is just beyond question to any reasonable person that the man was trying to pull out that gun. Or at the very least he was trying to get the police to believe that he was going for his gun, which would make him equally culpable. At this point his family's actions are simply outright harassment.


From the Wikipedia article, which contains copious sourcing:
The Oregon State Police received death threats.[53] On February 6, more than 1,000 supporters attended Finicum's funeral in Kanab, Utah, while others rebuilt a razed memorial on U.S. Route 395.[54] About another 100 people led by the 3 Percenters rallied at the Idaho State Capitol in the afternoon in honor of Finicum, who they believed was unarmed at the time of his death.[55] On March 4, a small group of about a dozen armed protesters surrounded a federal courthouse in Tucson, Arizona, demanding the state troopers who shot Finicum to be indicted and fired.[56] Another rally, led by Finicum's widow, was held at the Utah State Capitol on March 5. 200–300 people were in attendance.[57] Several dozen rallies were held at various locations throughout the country the following Saturday.[58]

On May 12, more than a dozen Arizona politicians wrote a letter to Oregon Governor Kate Brown, in which they asked her to conduct another, more transparent investigation into Finicum's death.[59]
Source of information about death threats: http://www.koin.com/news/osp-gets-threa ... /960301999
Edit: My browser is giving me a warning about the above link. Here is another link that details death threats from Finicum/Bundy supporters. http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... troop.html


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#230

Post by SparklyFlitter » Fri May 04, 2018 11:42 am

Hercule Parrot wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:15 am
Foggy wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:34 pm
GlimDropper wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:11 am
That and during the occupation LaVoy was quoted in more than one interview saying that he'd rather be in a coffin than a jail cell. He got his wish.
I don't think he really wished for that so much as he locked himself into that position. He had said all those times that he'd rather be dead than locked up in prison, and when he came to the point where he was forced to make exactly that choice, he knew he'd lose all respect from the other poots if he didn't make the choice he made.

And since he had driven the truck directly toward the FBI agent who was forced to dive out of the way, he was going to be locked up for maybe longer than Ammon Eggs or Cloven Hoof.

He swore to be a martyr and he didn't see an alternative other than to make a huge liar of himself, if he docilely allowed himself to be taken into custody without resistance. :daydream:
It's all speculation, of course, but my view is somewhat different. I think Finicum believed that the cops would always blink first, as long as he maintained the Armed & Assertive White Man routine. I'm not sure he was reaching for his gun with intent to shoot (surely would've spalmed it before exiting the truck if that was the plan, and tried to take a few of them with him). I think he leapt out with with the intention of shouting his way through this encounter -

How dare you obstruct our lawful journey to see the sheriff, endangering my passengers, attacking us with firearms etc! Stand Down! I am going to see the sheriff, and if you don't like that then you'll have to shoot me dead. Constitution! Freedom! Tranny! You will pay for the damage to my truck, and I will have all your badges! Wait till Sheriff Palmer hears about this criminal interference in his investigation! Where is your lawful warrant? Who is in charge here? Are you going to shoot me, because that's the only way you'll stop me from peacably driving to John Day! The lawful citizens militia is en route to restore constitutional order here, consider yourselves all under arrest!

I think his previous experience of LEO was that they were risk-adverse and easily dominated by such rhetoric. They wouldn't shoot a respectable older white man who spoke to them like a boss, citing the constitution and threatening to sue. Unfortunately he blew it this time -

He jumped into deep snow, which made him lurch and stagger around. He seemed unable to focus on a particular cop, just stumbling and turning. Cold air and adrenalin robbed him of coherent speech, he didn't have the authorative tone needed to put a seed of doubt in their minds. All the cops saw was a maniac shouting "hulk rage! shoot me!". And worst of all, his wild arm movements - was he waving them around for balance, reaching for his wretched Skousen constitution, reaching for his phone or maybe his gun? By US conventions of deadly force, he gave the cops ample grounds to open fire (in UK we would want to see the gun coming out of the pocket).

Clearly just idle speculation, and not worth the electrons its printed on, but I reckon Finicum's dying thought was "I can't believe they really did that".
Sorry for not snipping, I’m on my phone...but I agree with your interpretation. For all the “bad FBI” posturing, the leaders of this occupation knew completely that LEOs would take all steps possible to avoid bloodshed. I’ve long held the belief that the “omg the Feds are going to slaughter us” is posturing for the followers..got to keep them ginned up so when SHTF they end up in jail while the leaders walk.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#231

Post by woodworker » Fri May 04, 2018 1:25 pm

I agree with much of that interpretation, with a couple of exceptions. First, he normally wore his gun on his waist and I think he definitely would have had the gun out if he had been carrying on his waist - it just took him longer to get from inside his jacket. Second, I have no doubt he would have been waving his gun at the LEO if he had gotten it out in time. Third, I believe that he believed that once he showed them what a manly man he was by waving his gun, then the LEO would back down, not because they wanted to avoid bloodshed but because he was so heroic, just like his hero in his book. After all, according to his perception, all the federal LEO, etc. are really cowards and bullies so they would be afraid of a manly man. And lastly, I think he believed that because he was a manly man and the LEO are all cowards he could outshoot them all and be a conquering hero, just like in his book, and his last thought, IMHO, was "wait, that's not how I scripted this."

I have no sympathy for him or his family. He fantasized about killing cops - no sympathy at all.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#232

Post by RVInit » Fri May 04, 2018 1:47 pm

I think he also probably was thinking "what the fuck" when cRyan didn't follow him out of that car. That must have been a big surprise since this particular Bundy was the one that was constantly doing things to show government officials of all kinds that they aren't the boss of him. The fact that Bundy stayed safe inside that car must have really hit hard with Finny, but I guess we'll never know for sure.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#233

Post by Notorial Dissent » Fri May 04, 2018 2:54 pm

I largely agree with what both Foggy and Woodworker have said here. I can't help but thinking he was also a bit of a bully on top of his other issues. The other thing is I don't think he was anywhere near as smart as he thought he was. That he committed suicide by cop is just the final act in his mistaken belief in how the universe works.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#234

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Fri May 04, 2018 3:13 pm

woodworker wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 1:25 pm
I agree with much of that interpretation, with a couple of exceptions. First, he normally wore his gun on his waist and I think he definitely would have had the gun out if he had been carrying on his waist - it just took him longer to get from inside his jacket. Second, I have no doubt he would have been waving his gun at the LEO if he had gotten it out in time. Third, I believe that he believed that once he showed them what a manly man he was by waving his gun, then the LEO would back down, not because they wanted to avoid bloodshed but because he was so heroic, just like his hero in his book. After all, according to his perception, all the federal LEO, etc. are really cowards and bullies so they would be afraid of a manly man. And lastly, I think he believed that because he was a manly man and the LEO are all cowards he could outshoot them all and be a conquering hero, just like in his book, and his last thought, IMHO, was "wait, that's not how I scripted this."

I have no sympathy for him or his family. He fantasized about killing cops - no sympathy at all.
:thumbs:


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#235

Post by Chilidog » Fri May 04, 2018 3:40 pm

Leroy met his match you know
In a snow bank in Umatillo
Nobody heard his dying words
Ah, but that's the way it goes.

All the Federales say,
they could've had him any day
They only let him go so long,
out of kindness I suppose

(With apologies to Willie Nelson)



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#236

Post by GlimDropper » Fri May 04, 2018 3:48 pm

woodworker wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 1:25 pm
I agree with much of that interpretation, with a couple of exceptions. First, he normally wore his gun on his waist and I think he definitely would have had the gun out if he had been carrying on his waist - it just took him longer to get from inside his jacket. Second, I have no doubt he would have been waving his gun at the LEO if he had gotten it out in time. Third, I believe that he believed that once he showed them what a manly man he was by waving his gun, then the LEO would back down, not because they wanted to avoid bloodshed but because he was so heroic, just like his hero in his book. After all, according to his perception, all the federal LEO, etc. are really cowards and bullies so they would be afraid of a manly man. And lastly, I think he believed that because he was a manly man and the LEO are all cowards he could outshoot them all and be a conquering hero, just like in his book, and his last thought, IMHO, was "wait, that's not how I scripted this."

I have no sympathy for him or his family. He fantasized about killing cops - no sympathy at all.
I don't remember what model Colt revolver LaVoy carried but I'm pretty sure it was the same one the hero in his book spalmed. I remember looking it up one time and it was a big pistol, 11 inches in length (not compensating for anything there was he). Further he wore a double wrapped Mexican style pistol belt which hung lower and a bit looser than a standard belt. Taken together we can safely assume it would be a pain in the ass to drive a stick shift with your pistol hanging out and flapping about.

One kind of interesting note, I did see a photo of LaVoy on the roadside with his coat pulled open, the 9 mill in his pocket had the grip pointing upward (or would have been had he been standing), pretty much the opposite way you would carry a pistol in that pocket if you wanted to be able to reach your right hand into the coat and pull it out quickly. A few of the poots take this as proof that it wasn't his gun and the state police were so bad at planting a gun on him that they didn't realize they put it in his pocket wrong. I sorta assume that between bouncing around in a speeding truck, clomping through a snow drift and being groped for while LaVoy was shot, the gun twisted in his pocket but what do I know. At least the poots spreading the "the gun was planted" rumor had an actual piece of evidence to work from, unlike all the people who said LaVoy was shot in the face while down on his knees with his hands in the air. I think we're still waiting for Granny Finicum to release the results of the private autopsy to prove that one.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#237

Post by Notorial Dissent » Fri May 04, 2018 3:51 pm

And is now largely and deservedly FORGOTTEN!!!


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#238

Post by RVInit » Fri May 04, 2018 4:06 pm

I remember that the pocket in his jacket was something that was sewn in after market. The Bundy gang had been told not to have weapons on them during the meeting in John Day, so I think that is why Finicum had the gun in this pocket - because it was out of sight. I don't remember where I read it, but I do believe our favorite Sheriff asked them not to carry weapons where they could be openly seen. He may have been concerned about the optics, especially since it was well known that they were heavily armed and they were trying to downplay the fact of all the weaponry. I seem to remember LaVoy having a harness holster and his gun was often visible right under his jacket. That's how he wore one of his guns when he was at Malheur.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#239

Post by Curmudgeon » Fri May 04, 2018 4:35 pm

One kind of interesting note, I did see a photo of LaVoy on the roadside with his coat pulled open, the 9 mill in his pocket had the grip pointing upward (or would have been had he been standing), pretty much the opposite way you would carry a pistol in that pocket if you wanted to be able to reach your right hand into the coat and pull it out quickly. A few of the poots take this as proof that it wasn't his gun and the state police were so bad at planting a gun on him that they didn't realize they put it in his pocket wrong. I sorta assume that between bouncing around in a speeding truck, clomping through a snow drift and being groped for while LaVoy was shot, the gun twisted in his pocket but what do I know. At least the poots spreading the "the gun was planted" rumor had an actual piece of evidence to work from, unlike all the people who said LaVoy was shot in the face while down on his knees with his hands in the air. I think we're still waiting for Granny Finicum to release the results of the private autopsy to prove that one.
Yes, one of poot video makers seized on this, but their stupidity is immediately obvious to anyone who has carried an automatic pistol in a pocket.

The majority of the weight of an automatic pistol is in the slide and barrel at the top of the weapon. Gravity, being what it is, causes the heaviest part to rotate downwards, unless it is supported by a fitted holster or something.

I speak from (legal) experience.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#240

Post by Grumpy Old Guy » Fri May 04, 2018 4:44 pm

At Malheur, he walked around with a revolver in a holster in pseudo cowboy style.
I think there was something posted after the shooting that wearing that gun and holster would have made driving difficult.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#241

Post by Curmudgeon » Fri May 04, 2018 4:54 pm

Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:44 pm
At Malheur, he walked around with a revolver in a holster in pseudo cowboy style.
I think there was something posted after the shooting that wearing that gun and holster would have made driving difficult.
Could be, but my impression is that the archaic cowboy guns (along with his Bowie knife) he strutted around with at the refuge were for show and to attract the TV cameras, but he was smart enough to know that if things got serious, the 9 mm automatic pistol in his pocket and the AR-15 assault-style rifles (with high-quality sniper scopes) on the floor of his pickup were the ones to go to.

He worked to create his own myth, but when the excrement hit the whirling blades, he didn't know whether to shit or go blind -- as we used to say in the USMC.

Instead of taking a stand, he took a stumble. :shock:


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#242

Post by Curmudgeon » Fri May 04, 2018 5:01 pm

I also wish to pont out that our British friends use a wonderfully descriptive word: prat
... which is "tarp," spelt backwards. ;)

A coincidence? -- perhaps.

prat noun informal
1. BRITISH
an incompetent, stupid, or foolish person; an idiot.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#243

Post by RVInit » Fri May 04, 2018 5:09 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:54 pm
Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:44 pm
At Malheur, he walked around with a revolver in a holster in pseudo cowboy style.
I think there was something posted after the shooting that wearing that gun and holster would have made driving difficult.
Could be, but my impression is that the archaic cowboy guns (along with his Bowie knife) he strutted around with at the refuge were for show and to attract the TV cameras, but he was smart enough to know that if things got serious, the 9 mm automatic pistol in his pocket and the AR-15 assault-style rifles (with high-quality sniper scopes) on the floor of his pickup were the ones to go to.

He worked to create his own myth, but when the excrement hit the whirling blades, he didn't know whether to shit or go blind -- as we used to say in the USMC.

Instead of taking a stand, he took a stumble. :shock:
Yes. I think he was a victim of his own myth, too.

The video from the inside of the car was pretty interesting. I remember thinking that he seemed very aware of the fact that he was being videoed by a friendly. Why I say that is because when he was in front of the news cameras he seemed to be careful to come across as a reasonable, mild mannered guy, albeit one that was standing up to the big bad government. The video from inside that car seemed remarkably different - he was tough and using foul language, challenging the police to shoot him. Very different from the relatively soft spoken spokesman we saw on the TV. That video from the car showed a man that was knee deep in his own mythology. I bet he thought that video was going to end up on YouTube where everyone would be commenting on what a big hero he was. Yep, he really told them, didn't he?


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#244

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Fri May 04, 2018 8:35 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:54 pm
Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:44 pm
At Malheur, he walked around with a revolver in a holster in pseudo cowboy style.
I think there was something posted after the shooting that wearing that gun and holster would have made driving difficult.
Could be, but my impression is that the archaic cowboy guns (along with his Bowie knife) he strutted around with at the refuge were for show and to attract the TV cameras, but he was smart enough to know that if things got serious, the 9 mm automatic pistol in his pocket and the AR-15 assault-style rifles (with high-quality sniper scopes) on the floor of his pickup were the ones to go to.

He worked to create his own myth, but when the excrement hit the whirling blades, he didn't know whether to shit or go blind -- as we used to say in the USMC.

Instead of taking a stand, he took a stumble. :shock:
:wave: Hi, Curmudgeon! Newfilly from OLive.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#245

Post by Fortinbras » Fri May 04, 2018 8:56 pm

Ultimately the case goes to the jury, the same sort of people who crowd around Ernie Tertelgte and who locked and loaded at the BLM wranglers. Odds are, the local jury will side with Finicum even if the film shows him pulling that semi-auto out of his jacket and taking the first shot.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#246

Post by woodworker » Fri May 04, 2018 9:32 pm

Question for IAAL (litigator): can the judge rule at end of plaintiffs' case that no reasonable jury would find in favor of plaintiffs?


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#247

Post by RoadScholar » Fri May 04, 2018 9:32 pm

It doesn’t matter whether he had a properly-configured weapon ready to grab or not.

When police have explained a lot of shootings of brown-skinned folks they have said things like “he looked like he was reaching for a weapon” or “he was holding something that could have been a weapon in a threatening manner.”

And a lot of time they’re in the right. As it has been explained to me, cops gave a right to make sure they go home to their families. And I get that.

But isn’t that a perfectly good explanation for the semi-tragic demise of this dearly departed white cowboy?


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#248

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri May 04, 2018 9:34 pm

woodworker wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 9:32 pm
Question for IAAL (litigator): can the judge rule at end of plaintiffs' case that no reasonable jury would find in favor of plaintiffs?
Sure. Directed verdict. But it would probably not get that far with such a weak case.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#249

Post by RVInit » Fri May 04, 2018 10:00 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 9:34 pm
woodworker wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 9:32 pm
Question for IAAL (litigator): can the judge rule at end of plaintiffs' case that no reasonable jury would find in favor of plaintiffs?
Sure. Directed verdict. But it would probably not get that far with such a weak case.
Do you think a judge could throw her case out?


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#250

Post by bob » Fri May 04, 2018 10:08 pm

Isn't a directed verdict more of the situation where an element hasn't been proved? (Credibility questions would go to the jury.)


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