Finicum Lawsuit

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maydijo
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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#151

Post by maydijo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:24 pm

RVInit wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:22 pm
Off Topic
The fact that they were allowed to come and go really pissed me off. They should have been arrested as they left. And the fact that they allowed deliveries also pissed me off. They should have blocked the roads. No one in, only out. And arrest on the way out. Instead, they allowed people to deliver a side of beef and enough food to last for months. And allowed delivery trucks to deliver other crap. That was absolutely ridiculous. If they had stopped additional people from entering, they would have run out of food and they would have had to leave. Then...arrest. They should have been treated as if their actions had no merit.
I agree 1000%, except for the dildos. Exceptions should always be made for delivering dildos.



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Kendra
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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#152

Post by Kendra » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:26 pm

maydijo wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:24 pm
RVInit wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:22 pm
Off Topic
The fact that they were allowed to come and go really pissed me off. They should have been arrested as they left. And the fact that they allowed deliveries also pissed me off. They should have blocked the roads. No one in, only out. And arrest on the way out. Instead, they allowed people to deliver a side of beef and enough food to last for months. And allowed delivery trucks to deliver other crap. That was absolutely ridiculous. If they had stopped additional people from entering, they would have run out of food and they would have had to leave. Then...arrest. They should have been treated as if their actions had no merit.
I agree 1000%, except for the dildos. Exceptions should always be made for delivering dildos.
:like:



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RVInit
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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#153

Post by RVInit » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:28 pm

Kendra wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:26 pm
maydijo wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:24 pm
RVInit wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:22 pm
Off Topic
The fact that they were allowed to come and go really pissed me off. They should have been arrested as they left. And the fact that they allowed deliveries also pissed me off. They should have blocked the roads. No one in, only out. And arrest on the way out. Instead, they allowed people to deliver a side of beef and enough food to last for months. And allowed delivery trucks to deliver other crap. That was absolutely ridiculous. If they had stopped additional people from entering, they would have run out of food and they would have had to leave. Then...arrest. They should have been treated as if their actions had no merit.
I agree 1000%, except for the dildos. Exceptions should always be made for delivering dildos.
:like:
:lol: :thumbs:


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#154

Post by maydijo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:51 pm

I know it sounds flippant but I'm at least half-serious. The dildos made a mockery of the occupation, and Ritzy's temper tantrum !Ade them look unstable. Now imagine the temper tantrum if there were no other supplies allows through except dildos. Not only would they have been starved out, ending the occupation much earlier, but they'd also leave feeling defeated. Instead of feeling like they had support and only a few people were mocking them, they'd feel like almost everyone was mocking them.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#155

Post by NMgirl » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:58 pm

maydijo wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:51 pm
I know it sounds flippant but I'm at least half-serious. The dildos made a mockery of the occupation, and Ritzy's temper tantrum !Ade them look unstable. Now imagine the temper tantrum if there were no other supplies allows through except dildos. Not only would they have been starved out, ending the occupation much earlier, but they'd also leave feeling defeated. Instead of feeling like they had support and only a few people were mocking them, they'd feel like almost everyone was mocking them.
There were kids at the standoff almost all the time. The optics of "starving" them out, cutting off the electricity, etc., with small children at risk would have been terrible.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#156

Post by maydijo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:00 pm

NMgirl wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:58 pm
maydijo wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:51 pm
I know it sounds flippant but I'm at least half-serious. The dildos made a mockery of the occupation, and Ritzy's temper tantrum !Ade them look unstable. Now imagine the temper tantrum if there were no other supplies allows through except dildos. Not only would they have been starved out, ending the occupation much earlier, but they'd also leave feeling defeated. Instead of feeling like they had support and only a few people were mocking them, they'd feel like almost everyone was mocking them.
There were kids at the standoff almost all the time. The optics of "starving" them out, cutting off the electricity, etc., with small children at risk would have been terrible.

I thought the original occupiers were all grown men, and the kids came later after Blaine and Melisa kidnapped them?



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#157

Post by RVInit » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:13 pm

NMgirl wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:58 pm
maydijo wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:51 pm
I know it sounds flippant but I'm at least half-serious. The dildos made a mockery of the occupation, and Ritzy's temper tantrum !Ade them look unstable. Now imagine the temper tantrum if there were no other supplies allows through except dildos. Not only would they have been starved out, ending the occupation much earlier, but they'd also leave feeling defeated. Instead of feeling like they had support and only a few people were mocking them, they'd feel like almost everyone was mocking them.
There were kids at the standoff almost all the time. The optics of "starving" them out, cutting off the electricity, etc., with small children at risk would have been terrible.
kids whose parents could take them to a more appropriate place at any time.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#158

Post by Azastan » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:24 pm

RVInit wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:13 pm
NMgirl wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:58 pm


There were kids at the standoff almost all the time. The optics of "starving" them out, cutting off the electricity, etc., with small children at risk would have been terrible.
kids whose parents could take them to a more appropriate place at any time.
And if the parents don't leave with the children, then you arrest the parents and charge them with endangerment of a child?



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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#159

Post by Sam the Centipede » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:30 pm

On the send in some force issue: I was really surprised at how the brave poots dropped everything and fled squealing when it looked like there might be a few guns pointed at them. They were scared, scared, scared.

And yes, they should have been harassed when they came into the town for supplies, etc.

I don't think another Waco would have occurred but I am wholly sympathetic to law enforcement fearing that possibility. Hindsight makes us all experts and the hypotheticals can't be disproven. And while the court cases could have been better handled, LE couldn't predict that they would by so let down by dishonest jury verdicts. Heck, even the guy who stole a truck wasn't convicted for that.

Now the wildlife and forests folk have to be very cautious but I hope their leaders and LE are more prepared to meet abuse and criminality with effective levels of force. If that means we lose a few gun-wielding poots, most of us aren't going to worry.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#160

Post by RVInit » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:33 pm

Azastan wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:24 pm
RVInit wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:13 pm
NMgirl wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:58 pm


There were kids at the standoff almost all the time. The optics of "starving" them out, cutting off the electricity, etc., with small children at risk would have been terrible.
kids whose parents could take them to a more appropriate place at any time.
And if the parents don't leave with the children, then you arrest the parents and charge them with endangerment of a child?
They shouldn't have been allowed entrance to begin with. The original people who took over did not bring kids. Roadblocks should have been set up right away and nobody else allowed to enter. Exit only.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#161

Post by Sam the Centipede » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:43 pm

RVInit wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:33 pm
:snippity:
They shouldn't have been allowed entrance to begin with. The original people who took over did not bring kids. Roadblocks should have been set up right away and nobody else allowed to enter. Exit only.
Makes good sense to me!



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#162

Post by Curmudgeon » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:10 pm

As I recall, the poots were just strutting about town and then decided to go to the refuge without warning.

The lesson learned should be that any time Ammon, the Messiah, and dupes gather, all nearby public property should be guarded, even if it means calling in the National Guard.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#163

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:10 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:10 pm
As I recall, the poots were just strutting about town and then decided to go to the refuge without warning.

The lesson learned should be that any time Ammon, the Messiah, and dupes gather, all nearby public property should be guarded, even if it means calling in the National Guard.
Yep.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#164

Post by RVInit » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:43 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:10 pm
Curmudgeon wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:10 pm
As I recall, the poots were just strutting about town and then decided to go to the refuge without warning.

The lesson learned should be that any time Ammon, the Messiah, and dupes gather, all nearby public property should be guarded, even if it means calling in the National Guard.
Yep.
:like:


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#165

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:05 pm

DejaMoo wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:09 pm
RVInit wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:59 pm
RoadScholar wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:47 pm
Shutting off the power would have been a good start. Seal them off and wait them out. Anything but the kid-gloves approach the authorities took.
I think the problem with cutting the power was there was no way to cut power to the refuge without cutting it from the surrounding ranches, most of whom were not giving any kind of aid and support to the Bundy thugs. But, yes, in general their kid glove approach allowed the insanity to go on for far too long and gave these criminals (yes, I know) lots of talking points that seemed to work on the jury.
I expect the power company could've sent a crew to work farther back on the line to temporarily or permanently re-route the power to the neighboring ranches, while cutting the refuge out of the loop. But that would've been expensive, and somebody would've had to authorize it and pay for it . . . and that's where it probably got stuck.

It still boggles my mind that they allowed these assholes to come and go freely, allowed deliveries to be made, and allowed fans and supporters to visit. It's really hard to convincingly claim after the fact that these people were dangerous and the occupation was not only illegal but also posed a safety issue for the community when officials/LEO didn't treat them/it as such during the occupation.
:like: :like: :like:



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#166

Post by Dr. Blue » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:16 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:00 am
I disagree. Malheur and Burns was a sedition case, not a trespass case. The Feds lost it by treating it as a trespass case. An eviction notice would have been meaningless. Moving on the seditionists with armored vehicles and pursuing sedition charges would have been appropriate. Loretta Lynch was scared off by Waco.
I certainly defer to you on the legal issues, and whether taking a sedition approach/charge would have been more appropriate than trespass. However, it seems they made that decision early on, and then didn't even treat the trespass with appropriate care and seriousness. As others have said, setting up roadblocks (and serving papers) would be a pretty basic response, I'd think. Given the layout of the area, they could have easily set up far enough back to not escalate the situation to violence but still ramp up pressure on them. Traipsing in and out of town during an armed occupation (and allowing press in for press conferences run by the criminals!) - that crosses from "taking precautions to not escalate things" to "looking like no one cares."



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#167

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:17 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:10 pm
As I recall, the poots were just strutting about town and then decided to go to the refuge without warning.

The lesson learned should be that any time Ammon, the Messiah, and dupes gather, all nearby public property should be guarded, even if it means calling in the National Guard.
IIRC, authorities were tipped off in advance of the Bundy's plans to occupy the refuge, and passed the warning to the refuge's employees, who stayed away, which is why the place was unoccupied when the Bundys showed up.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#168

Post by Somerset » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:39 pm

NMgirl wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:58 pm
maydijo wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:51 pm
I know it sounds flippant but I'm at least half-serious. The dildos made a mockery of the occupation, and Ritzy's temper tantrum !Ade them look unstable. Now imagine the temper tantrum if there were no other supplies allows through except dildos. Not only would they have been starved out, ending the occupation much earlier, but they'd also leave feeling defeated. Instead of feeling like they had support and only a few people were mocking them, they'd feel like almost everyone was mocking them.
There were kids at the standoff almost all the time. The optics of "starving" them out, cutting off the electricity, etc., with small children at risk would have been terrible.
Who cares? It really is OK to be tough sometimes. Law enforcement let the Bundys walk all over them (the Sheriff shaking Ammon's hand was a perfect example) and because of that the Bundys ultimately walked out of court.

Like I said over two years ago, if this had happened in Singapore or China, everyone in that compound would have been dead or arrested within 48 hours, with zero apologies from the government. We expect law enforcement to maintain law and order and to protect law abiding citizens from armed outlaws. These guys failed miserably.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#169

Post by Sam the Centipede » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:50 pm

Somerset wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:39 pm
:snippity:
Like I said over two years ago, if this had happened in Singapore or China, everyone in that compound would have been dead or arrested within 48 hours, with zero apologies from the government. We expect law enforcement to maintain law and order and to protect law abiding citizens from armed outlaws. These guys failed miserably.
... and, as was also mentioned at the time, it's difficult to believe that the scofflaws would have been treated so gently had their skins contained more melanin. Nor that the juries would have put the same effort into concocting implausible not guilty verdicts.



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#170

Post by RVInit » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:55 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:50 pm
Somerset wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:39 pm
:snippity:
Like I said over two years ago, if this had happened in Singapore or China, everyone in that compound would have been dead or arrested within 48 hours, with zero apologies from the government. We expect law enforcement to maintain law and order and to protect law abiding citizens from armed outlaws. These guys failed miserably.
... and, as was also mentioned at the time, it's difficult to believe that the scofflaws would have been treated so gently had their skins contained more melanin. Nor that the juries would have put the same effort into concocting implausible not guilty verdicts.
:yeah:


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#171

Post by Hercule Parrot » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:15 pm

I agree with above comments about the ineffectual and supine response to Malheur (and Bunkerville before that).



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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#172

Post by Suranis » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:29 pm

I did disagree then, but I don't anymore.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#173

Post by woodworker » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:41 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:00 am
I disagree. Malheur and Burns was a sedition case, not a trespass case. The Feds lost it by treating it as a trespass case. An eviction notice would have been meaningless. Moving on the seditionists with armored vehicles and pursuing sedition charges would have been appropriate. Loretta Lynch was scared off by Waco.
:yeah: :like:

And I expect that next time the feds will be a lot less accommodating and less gentle in their approach.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#174

Post by woodworker » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:43 pm

RVInit wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:59 pm
RoadScholar wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:47 pm
Shutting off the power would have been a good start. Seal them off and wait them out. Anything but the kid-gloves approach the authorities took.
I think the problem with cutting the power was there was no way to cut power to the refuge without cutting it from the surrounding ranches, most of whom were not giving any kind of aid and support to the Bundy thugs. But, yes, in general their kid glove approach allowed the insanity to go on for far too long and gave these criminals (yes, I know) lots of talking points that seemed to work on the jury.
I have to believe that the feds could have trucked in massive generators to power those home. After all, we aren't sending them to Puerto Rico.


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Re: Finicum Lawsuit

#175

Post by NMgirl » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:33 am

This is also posted on the Oregon Trials Part Deux thread.
Widfin has petitioned the Court in Oregon for the return of LaChoy's gunz. :shootin:



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