2017, 2018 Political Typology Reports

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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#26

Post by Somerset » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:22 am

I can't post the graph from my phone, but -4.0,.-4.0 was my score.



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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#27

Post by RoadScholar » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:46 am

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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#28

Post by HilltownGrrl » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:49 am

Test One:
I'm a Solid Liberal. I was surprised at how easy it was to choose between the questions, despite the warning that there would be answers where I disagreed with both. There wasn't a single one I hesitated on, thus proving everyone's point that this was too either/or to be really useful.

Test Two:

Ok, now I've got it in there twice. And they're both big. Since nothing shows up in preview, I can't figure out how to edit this. Help!?!
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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#29

Post by Foggy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:00 am

I helped.

You, HTG, rawk so much. :lovestruck: :bighug:


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#30

Post by Foggy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:03 am

Is anyone else seeing that we're ALL in the green quadrant? I wonder where Sporky, Cap'n Karl, SSG MoeRon, and our other friends would be. :think:


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#31

Post by p0rtia » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:04 am

HilltownGrrl wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:49 am
Test One:
I'm a Solid Liberal. I was surprised at how easy it was to choose between the questions, despite the warning that there would be answers where I disagreed with both. There wasn't a single one I hesitated on, thus proving everyone's point that this was too either/or to be really useful.

Test Two:
Sistah! :bighug:


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#32

Post by Estiveo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:08 am

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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#33

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:09 am

NotaPerson wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:54 pm
Opportunity Democrat reporting for duty.
Same here! :-D


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#34

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:36 am

Economic Left/Right: -3.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.46
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A 19th Amendment Centennial Moment: On July 28, 1919, Arkansas became the 12th state to adopt the 19th Amendment.

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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#35

Post by Foggy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:37 am

Foggy wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:02 am
This is from 10 years ago or more. I should probably take it again, see if I have evolved.

.

Image
Looks like I've moved a little left over the last few years.

Image


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#36

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:43 am

Solidly grumpy.



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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#37

Post by HilltownGrrl » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:47 am

Foggy wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:00 am
I helped.

You, HTG, rawk so much. :lovestruck: :bighug:
Thanks, Foggy! And you, sir, rawk (& bawk) the most of us all!


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#38

Post by HilltownGrrl » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:50 am

p0rtia wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:04 am
Sistah! :bighug:
It looks like we're the queens of the far southwest corners! :-D :thumbs: :lovestruck:


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#39

Post by Suranis » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:24 pm

I was in the red quadrant the last time I took one of those tests.


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#40

Post by TollandRCR » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:02 pm

Two credible political parties cannot represent the four cells of this matrix. That may be the message of the Pew poll. I do not like finding myself in the same cell as Trump.

However, I think the matrix is far too simple. That cell occupied by both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton should have multiple dimensions (subcells).

We are seeing lots of evidence that the Millineals are usually not affiliating with either major party. A few are on the Nazi side; a few are anarchists.

In such an environment it is absurd for Perez and Clinton to insist upon party loyalty. We should have seen this coming when Perez stupidly proclaimed that no one who opposed a woman’s right to choose an abortion could be a Democratic candidate. This is the litmus test of today. One of the reasons it is still controversial is that SCOTUS, not the people, made the decision.

If those two parties are going to continue to provide our choices for elective office, they must expect dissent and criticism. We did not all have to agree with everything the candidates espoused in 2008 and 2012. We won tremendous victories in both elections. But I never thought of myself as loyal to President Obama.

I was and am loyal to the Constitution, to the ideals in the Declaration, and to the body of law that has emerged after struggles (such as the Civil Rights Act).

We need leaders and candidates who do not scorn people who disagree with them on one or many points. We need people who are willing to sit down and talk with their potential constituents. In fact, that is a very powerful way of learning something new.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#41

Post by Whatever4 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:15 pm

Foggy wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:03 am
Is anyone else seeing that we're ALL in the green quadrant? I wonder where Sporky, Cap'n Karl, SSG MoeRon, and our other friends would be. :think:
I haven’t done it recently, but I’m dead on one of the lines IIRC


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#42

Post by Whatever4 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:34 pm

p0rtia wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:35 pm
And for historical perspective....

Image

Image

Image

I've always said my politics are the exact mirror image of fuckhead. Imma use this as evidence.
Something is screwy there. Hillary Clinton is the same politically as Margaret Thatcher? And to the right of Trump? Shouldn’t she be in the top left quadrant? :confused:


"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
-- Sen. King (I-ME)

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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#43

Post by Foggy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:42 pm

Yeah, and Hitler and Stalin and some others didn't take the same test I took online. :confused:


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#44

Post by TollandRCR » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:59 pm

Whatever “left” and “right” mean in this matrix, Hillary Clinton was never a liberal. Nor was Bill. The Democratic Party of FDR and Truman disappeared in the corridors of power.


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#45

Post by Somerset » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:46 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:09 am
NotaPerson wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:54 pm
Opportunity Democrat reporting for duty.
Same here! :-D
Me too :)



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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#46

Post by p0rtia » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:07 pm

Whatever4 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:34 pm
p0rtia wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:35 pm
And for historical perspective....

Image

Image

Image

I've always said my politics are the exact mirror image of fuckhead. Imma use this as evidence.
Something is screwy there. Hillary Clinton is the same politically as Margaret Thatcher? And to the right of Trump? Shouldn’t she be in the top left quadrant? :confused:
No. I remember the one from the 2012 campaign. Obama and Romney were just a smidge apart, in the same ball park as Hillary. That's the point, as I understand it: using dictionary definitions of left (progressive) and right (conservative), authoritarian and libertarian, most mainstream US politicians are not particularly far apart, and not particularly progressive. Fuckhead is the furthest toward authoritarian by far, however. What a surprise.


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#47

Post by AndyinPA » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:08 pm

No surprises.

Solidly liberal in the first one.

Right square in the middle of the green on the second one.

Your Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.54

(I still haven't taken the time to find out how to copy an image here :oops: )



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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#48

Post by Slarti the White » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:09 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:02 pm
Two credible political parties cannot represent the four cells of this matrix. That may be the message of the Pew poll. I do not like finding myself in the same cell as Trump.

Apologies for some pedagogy, but your terminology isn't effectively communicating your message (which I understand and agree with). The term "matrix" doesn't really apply here. We have a figure (or a graph or a chart) that is divided into four quadrants. You are in the same quadrant as Trump, meaning you are on the same side of the origin as him in both dimensions.

I think you're right about the message of the poll and it is borne out by the deep fractures in both parties. We need smaller groups that are willing to join coalitions to enact policy on specific issues. At-large representation in the House would be good too, in my opinion, but unlikely because of the Constitutional impediment. It would be very interesting to see the scatter plots for the House and the Senate for this typology.


However, I think the matrix is far too simple. That cell occupied by both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton should have multiple dimensions (subcells).

You can't add another dimension to a quadrant, it is an aspect of the space in which you are working (like the walls and floors and ceilings of the building you are in). If you add another dimension -- say, free trade vs. protectionism or engagement vs. isolationism or military force vs. diplomacy -- then you add it to everything. A value must be added to each point (person) to specify their location on that axis. The four quadrants get broken up into eight octants (and then sixteen hexadeca-tants) depending on which side of the new continuum you are on. I suspect that as more dimensions are added you would be much more likely to find yourself on the opposite side than Trump. Not to mention that putting Trump anywhere on that graph is problematic due to his plethora of contradictory statements.

The problem with this, of course, is that you can only plot 2 dimensions (although you can use projection to capture another*). There are, of course, infinitely many additional axes that we can choose, many of them irrelevant to political typography. While we can't visualize 82 dimensions, there are still ways of finding patterns and thus drawing insight from the data. In other words, if we want to gain new insight and understanding into the underlying territory, we really need a more nuanced map than this one.

* I once thought of a way to project 4 dimensions into two by combining one-point and two-point perspective techniques. Someday I've got to try it out and see if it helps visualize the surface volume of a tesseract (hypercube).
:towel:


We are seeing lots of evidence that the Millineals are usually not affiliating with either major party. A few are on the Nazi side; a few are anarchists.

I think, like yourself and the current president, millennials will be poorly differentiated by this method.

In such an environment it is absurd for Perez and Clinton to insist upon party loyalty.

I don't want people being loyal to Clinton (or the party) any more than I want them to be loyal to Trump. Loyal to the Constitution, loyal to their constituents, loyal to their principles, yes. Loyal to their principals? No. That's what defines a cult of personality.

We should have seen this coming when Perez stupidly proclaimed that no one who opposed a woman’s right to choose an abortion could be a Democratic candidate.

That's certainly when I first started thinking that Perez wasn't really a change for the better or even a change at all.

This is the litmus test of today.

You can have a big tent or you can have a litmus test. You can't have both. Unless you count being willing to engage in rational dialogue a litmus test -- then you get one. Once you say that some idea -- any idea -- is beyond the pale, then you have opened the door to an ever increasing number of factions.

"He's in the People's Front of Judea, not the Judean People's Front! SPLITTER!"

Anyone who's willing to participate in good faith has to get a seat at the table and a voice. If their ideas are bad ones they can be easily refuted on their merits, but there are no bad people (although sometimes people do bad things) -- it's what they do with their future, not their past, that counts.


One of the reasons it is still controversial is that SCOTUS, not the people, made the decision.

True, although it's not exactly the first time the SCOTUS imposed decisions on a recalcitrant public.

If those two parties are going to continue to provide our choices for elective office, they must expect dissent and criticism.

This is my biggest concern with how Hillary and her supporters in the DNC treated the supporters of Bernie Sanders. They never once even acknowledged (at least to the best of my knowledge) that there were legitimate reasons for complaint and, if nothing else, they needed to be addressed in a transparent and democratic manner so this problem won't recur in 2020. Perez's actions pretty much guarantee that the resentment won't be going away anytime soon.

We did not all have to agree with everything the candidates espoused in 2008 and 2012. We won tremendous victories in both elections. But I never thought of myself as loyal to President Obama.

Hell, the first thing I did when I ran across the birthers in 2008 (at Texas Darlin's) was to find out if it was possible that President Obama wasn't a natural born citizen (turns out it's not, in case anyone was wondering). I was pissed when he claimed the right to kill US citizens abroad and never defended his right to do that (though nothing ever came of that because the Republicans didn't care).

You are either loyal to the Constitution or your are loyal to some person (or something else), you can't be both. One must necessarily come first. I've got no loyalty for the Democrats -- they've done nothing to earn it. I'd be happy to help them achieve shared goals, but they don't have any goals as far as I can determine, at least besides a desire to be elected and a pitch that they will protect us from the evil Republicans. Somehow. The Underpants Gnomes have a much more solid plan.


I was and am loyal to the Constitution, to the ideals in the Declaration, and to the body of law that has emerged after struggles (such as the Civil Rights Act).

The same, but I am loyal, first and foremost, to the human race. So long as humanity survives, a part of me will too. also.

We need leaders and candidates who do not scorn people who disagree with them on one or many points. We need people who are willing to sit down and talk with their potential constituents. In fact, that is a very powerful way of learning something new.

A colleague who is a researcher for the NIH at Bethesda said that finding out you are wrong is the best thing that can happen to a scientist -- that's when you learn something. As a Buddhist, I think that's true in all aspects of life. What could be better than gaining a deeper understanding of the World around us?

I want Democratic leaders and candidates that aren't afraid of discussion, aren't afraid to be wrong, and aren't afraid to change their mind. I've had enough of a president who has no feedback to correct his errors. The math says that bad things happen when feedback is severed. Systems become unstable.
I was in the neighborhood of Nota Person, by the way. An "solid liberal" on the other, but I agree with Mike that it would have been very different if they were asking about solutions rather than problems. First and foremost, I'm a scientist.


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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#49

Post by Mikedunford » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:34 pm

Yeah. Solid liberal on the Pew thing, but...
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Re: Pew: Beyond Red and Blue: 2017 Political Typology Report

#50

Post by Mikedunford » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:37 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:59 pm
Whatever “left” and “right” mean in this matrix, Hillary Clinton was never a liberal. Nor was Bill. The Democratic Party of FDR and Truman disappeared in the corridors of power.
Actually, I think both of them were liberal, in the internationally accepted sense of the term. The Democratic Party of FDR and Truman was much more socialist (and authoritarian); it wasn't liberal.


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