Mapping the American Working Class

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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#51

Post by Volkonski » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:04 pm

Demographics is destiny.

Census: Every ethnic, racial group grew, but whites slowest

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStor ... e-48199097
Every ethnic and racial group grew between 2015 and 2016, but the number of whites increased at the slowest rate — less than one hundredth of 1 percent or 5,000 people, the Census estimate shows. That's a fraction of the rates of growth for non-white Hispanics, Asians and people who said they are multi-racial, according to the government's annual estimates of population.

:snippity:

The Census Bureau reported that the median age of Americans — the age at which half are older and half are younger — rose nationally from just over 35 years to nearly 38 years in the years between 2000 and 2016, driven by the aging of the "baby boom" generation.

The number of residents age 65 and older grew from 35 million to 49.2 million during those 16 years, jumping from 12 percent of the total population to 15 percent.

:snippity:

The Asian population and those who identified as being of two or more races grew by 3 percent each, to 21 million and 8.5 million, respectively. Hispanics grew by 2 percent to 57.5 million. The black population grew by 1.2 percent to nearly 47 million.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#52

Post by Volkonski » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:41 pm

Interactive graphic showing the demographic makeup of every county in the USA.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... .html?_r=0


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#53

Post by AndyinPA » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:56 pm

That is an interesting way of looking at the population.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#54

Post by Addie » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:28 am

FiveThirtyEight
The One County In America That Voted In A Landslide For Both Trump And Obama

In the year since President Trump pulled off his stunning upset of Hillary Clinton, Democrats have blamed the result on all kinds of factors: James Comey’s letter, Russian hackers, voter suppression, Jill Stein’s candidacy and depressed African-American turnout, to name a few. The truth? In an election decided by fractions of percentage points, it’s easy to call just about anything a difference-maker.

But none of that gets at the heart of why so many people who cast a ballot for former president Barack Obama in 2008 and 2012 — and who saw Trump as unqualified to be president — nonetheless voted for him. Although it’s far from a microcosm of the nation, there’s one place that I believe illustrates what happened in 2016 better than anything else.

In a nation increasingly composed of landslide counties — places that voted for one side or the other by at least 20 percentage points — Howard County, Iowa (population 9,332), stands out as the only one of America’s 3,141 counties that voted by more than 20 percentage points for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016. Democrats can’t credibly blame Howard County’s enormous 41-point swing in just four years on a last-minute letter to Congress, voter ID laws or Russia-sponsored Facebook ads.

Howard County, about 150 miles northeast of Des Moines along the state’s border with Minnesota, is 98 percent white. Only 13 percent of residents age 25 and over hold at least a bachelor’s degree. Median household income in the county in 2015 was $49,869. The largest employers in Cresco, the county seat, include the Donaldson Company, an air filter manufacturer whose local workers belong to the United Auto Workers union, and Featherlite, which makes aluminum livestock and utility trailers.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#55

Post by neeneko » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:09 pm

Addie wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:28 am
FiveThirtyEight
The One County In America That Voted In A Landslide For Both Trump And Obama

The idea that voters who previously cast a ballot for Obama could not have been motivated, at least in part, by race when they made their 2016 choice has been disputed extensively in academic studies. But in my conversations with Howard County voters of both parties, the common thread of support for Obama and for Trump was resounding: anti-elitism
I am really not sure what to make of the people who assert that it was anti elitism. I can almost see it when it came to Obama vs McCain, but in Clinton vs Trump they went with the New York 'silver spoon in mouth, blood determines your station in life' elitist as opposed to the 'much closer to blue collar upbringing' Clinton.

One can claim that marketing and propaganda shaped their perceptions, but people tend to only believe messages that already dovetail with what they already feel, so it must have roots deeper than that.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#56

Post by RVInit » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:18 pm

From that same FiveThirtyEight article:
As for Clinton? “She was elitist, was what I kept hearing,” said Laura Hubka, a Navy veteran and ultrasound technician who chaired the county’s Democratic party and knocked on doors for Clinton. “We’re a blue-collar town.”
Kept hearing from where, from whom? And why did she believe it? This article doesn't really provide much insight, IMO. It talks about what they think but not WHY they think that way. And, they thought a man who made no apologies and no bones about "wages are TOO HIGH" was going to...make a difference in their actual wages?

:swoon:


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#57

Post by Slartibartfast » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:30 pm

RVInit wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:18 pm
From that same FiveThirtyEight article:
As for Clinton? “She was elitist, was what I kept hearing,” said Laura Hubka, a Navy veteran and ultrasound technician who chaired the county’s Democratic party and knocked on doors for Clinton. “We’re a blue-collar town.”
Kept hearing from where, from whom? And why did she believe it? This article doesn't really provide much insight, IMO. It talks about what they think but not WHY they think that way. And, they thought a man who made no apologies and no bones about "wages are TOO HIGH" was going to...make a difference in their actual wages?

:swoon:
"This article doesn't really provide much insight, IMO."

I think this is pretty much par for the course at 538 these days. Regarding the belief that Hillary was an elitist, I think the issue is not so much who was saying it (plenty of people on the right have been saying such things for a long time, but why it resonated. Hillary often projects a sense of entitlement which many on the left (including myself) have noted. On the other hand, Trump's elitist past wasn't really an issue because he connected with these people with his populist message -- they felt Trump understood their anger at the elitists (like Hillary, in their minds) which is why his populist message resonated over his elitist upbringing and history, in my opinion.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#58

Post by maydijo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:44 pm

Once upon a time it was considered a good thing (the American dream, even) to be upwardly mobile - to do better in terms of education, career, and finances than your parents did. Hillary Clinton overcame the odds and became a successful lawyer, then a successful senator and stateswoman. And this makes her elite? Only in this new race-for-the-bottom America.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#59

Post by Slartibartfast » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:45 pm

maydijo wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:44 pm
Once upon a time it was considered a good thing (the American dream, even) to be upwardly mobile - to do better in terms of education, career, and finances than your parents did. Hillary Clinton overcame the odds and became a successful lawyer, then a successful senator and stateswoman. And this makes her elite? Only in this new race-for-the-bottom America.
What are you arguing here? Hillary Clinton IS elite (by most reasonable definitions) in a good way which has been delegitimized by the right. She is also elitIST, or at least perceived that way, because she seems to have a sense of entitlement. This is not so good.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#60

Post by RVInit » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:52 pm

My question had to do with why did the people in this town, the people who were talked about in the story - why did THEY believe she was an elitist, not why did anyone here think she was elitist.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#61

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:53 pm

RVInit wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:52 pm
My question had to do with why did the people in this town, the people who were talked about in the story - why did THEY believe she was an elitist, not why did anyone here think she was elitist.
Because she used more, and bigger, words than trump.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#62

Post by maydijo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:57 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:45 pm
maydijo wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:44 pm
Once upon a time it was considered a good thing (the American dream, even) to be upwardly mobile - to do better in terms of education, career, and finances than your parents did. Hillary Clinton overcame the odds and became a successful lawyer, then a successful senator and stateswoman. And this makes her elite? Only in this new race-for-the-bottom America.
What are you arguing here? Hillary Clinton IS elite (by most reasonable definitions) in a good way which has been delegitimized by the right. She is also elitIST, or at least perceived that way, because she seems to have a sense of entitlement. This is not so good.
She is, I will agree, elite in a good way; but I do not agree she is elitist. This is, in my opinion, a right-wing smear job. Clearly we are not going to see eye to eye where Hillary is concerned and will just have to agree to disagree.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#63

Post by DejaMoo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:10 pm

Johnstown Never Believed Trump Would Help. They Still Love Him Anyway.
...This reality ought to get the attention of anyone who thinks they will
win in 2018 or 2020 by running against Trump’s record. His supporters
here, it turns out, are energized by his bombast and his animus more
than any actual accomplishments. For them, it’s evidently not what
he’s doing so much as it is the people he’s fighting. Trump is simply
and unceasingly angry on their behalf, battling the people who vex
them the worst—“obstructionist” Democrats, uncooperative establishment
Republicans, the media, Black Lives Matter protesters and NFL players
(boy oh boy do they hate kneeling NFL players) whom they see as
ungrateful, disrespectful millionaires.

And they love him for this.

“Everybody I talk to,” he said, “realizes it’s not Trump who’s
dragging his feet. Trump’s probably the most diligent, hardest-working
president we’ve ever had in our lifetimes. It’s not like he sleeps in
till noon and goes golfing every weekend, like the last president
did.”
:snippity:
So many people in so many other areas of the country watch with dismay
and existential alarm Trump’s Twitter hijinks, his petty feuds, his
penchant for butting into areas where the president has no explicit,
policy-relevant role. All of that only animates his supporters here.
For them, Trump is their megaphone. He is the scriptwriter. He is a
singularly effective, intuitive creator of a limitless loop of
grievance and discontent that keeps them in absolute lockstep.


Go read the article. Read it all the way to the end, and you'll understand these people will never be persuaded to believe otherwise.

These people would vote for Charles Manson if he ran as a Republican. Hell, he'd be the candidate of their dreams: he killed some Hollywood elites and tried to start a race war.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#64

Post by Danraft » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:46 pm

Well, I listen to Lots of AM Radio....
Man, I would love to host an alternative view on these stations.
much of what they say is easily disputed and show be.
And, my gosh do they dodge from reality.
And they're vicious!
Stupid Liberals. Liberal Pukes, Liberal idiots... jeez
But, today was the spin to counter "Thoughts and Prayers" and how liberals are full of hats at religion since we're saying "Thoughts and Prayers" is their Safe Space of no response to America's needs.
"Elite" was used an unusual amount to as the "goto" word to express contempt for someone.
Amazing.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#65

Post by Flatpointhigh » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:33 pm

"Elite" was used as a slur during the NJ gubernatorial campaign against GOV-ELECT Phil Murphy. Didn't work. :dance: :dance:



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#66

Post by Slartibartfast » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:57 pm

RVInit wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:52 pm
My question had to do with why did the people in this town, the people who were talked about in the story - why did THEY believe she was an elitist, not why did anyone here think she was elitist.
As I said, in my opinion, they believed that she was an elitist because that's how the right has been demonizing elites for some time now, and because they perceived her as acting entitled (for reasons both valid and fallacious). I think this is why Trump's populist message was successful in convincing people she was elitist.
maydijo wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:57 pm
Slartibartfast wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:45 pm
What are you arguing here? Hillary Clinton IS elite (by most reasonable definitions) in a good way which has been delegitimized by the right. She is also elitIST, or at least perceived that way, because she seems to have a sense of entitlement. This is not so good.
She is, I will agree, elite in a good way; but I do not agree she is elitist. This is, in my opinion, a right-wing smear job.

In other words, you are saying that I am either acting in furtherance of the right wing smears on Hillary or have been fooled by them. Either is an attack and demonstrably false. Certainly the right wing has smeared her as elitist, but that doesn't change that that charge has resonated and the reason for that, in my opinion, is that there is a grain of truth in it.

What isn't an opinion or open for debate is that it isn't just those on the right looking to smear her that have pointed out the perception of Hillary as elitist and actions and statements of hers that seem to to convey a sense of entitlement. Dismissing legitimate complaints about Hillary because of similar unjustified claims is both wrong and foolish. It is wrong because it is exactly the same line of reasoning that some people used to dismiss Black Lives Matter because of looting and violence in the protests after the shooting in Ferguson. Delegitimizing the whole movement because of some people who used it as cover for bad actions. In either case it undermines attempts to hold people accountable for their words and actions.

Worse, it is a very bad tactic. It denies any prospect of transparency and thus creates an appearance of impropriety. It also muddies the waters and weakens your credibility in the future. For example, the birthers raised as much hue and cry as they were able about President Obama's natural born status for 8 years and, as a result, muddied the waters so badly that a candidate (Felito Cruz) who had at least one competent lawyer ( :sterngard: ) willing to challenge his eligibility was given a pass because anyone raising the issue could be easily tied to the birthers and dismissed.

When you do this -- ignore legitimate criticism -- you also need to realize how it plays to the victims of right wing propaganda. To them, that appearance of impropriety created by conflating unsupported and frivolous allegations with well-founded ones is strong corroborating evidence to the propaganda they have been literally addicted to. Right and wrong and fairness aside, this is incredibly counterproductive. Wouldn't it be better to hold Hillary accountable for her words and actions, no more, no less? I think so.


Clearly we are not going to see eye to eye where Hillary is concerned and will just have to agree to disagree.

Well, disagreeing is one thing, but demonstrably false statements that implicitly smear myself and others is quite another.
The point that you and others have failed to understand is that I haven't been trying to convince you to agree with my opinions, I've been trying to convince you that the points I'm making are legitimate and to get you to address them on the merits. Nothing would make me happier than for you to do so and convince me that I am wrong. I don't like many of my conclusions about Hillary. But it is much easier to dismiss my claims by taking some explicit or implicit pot-shots at me than it is to honestly consider whether or not you are wrong.

Just to be clear, you're doing the exact opposite of what I've been trying to do -- you're trying to stifle dialogue. Do you really think it is unnecessary to address the merits of legitimate criticisms of Hillary? If so, then you have demonstrated the very sense of entitlement that you said was a right-wing smear job. Which I highly doubt was your intent.
DejaMoo wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:10 pm
Johnstown Never Believed Trump Would Help. They Still Love Him Anyway.

:snippity:

Go read the article. Read it all the way to the end, and you'll understand these people will never be persuaded to believe otherwise.

These people would vote for Charles Manson if he ran as a Republican. Hell, he'd be the candidate of their dreams: he killed some Hollywood elites and tried to start a race war.
I had already read the article (all the way to the end) before you posted it and what I cannot seem to understand is why you and others choose to blame the victim.. If anyone are victims of right-wing propaganda, these people are. Yet you write them off without showing the empathy to at least try to understand them, let alone help them, or even the sympathy to pity them. Do you really think you'd be any different if you were raised in their environment with their resources?

If Democrats had started trying to reach these people back in the 80s instead of leaving them to the tender mercies of the evangelicals (and the Dominionist movement in politics in particular), we wouldn't be in this situation right now. So where's the 50 year plan for the Democrats to fix it? Were's the acknowledgement that they were asleep at the switch and the show of good faith that they are treating the problem seriously now? Or even the recognition that they have let the Republicans frame issues unopposed for decades?

I assume you've read 1984 so you should understand that if people don't have the vocabulary to describe nuance, not only will they not understand it, but they will be unable to even conceive of it. And your solution is to say that everyone who has been indoctrinated by Big Brother is completely beyond hope and can never be redeemed. I find this view double plus ungood.

In a Buddhist study meeting last weekend we had a dialogue about dialogue. A great many wise and insightful things were said (at least things I see as wise and insightful) that were relevant to this and other threads, but the one that seems most appropriate here was the discussion about Bodhisattva Never Disparaging and how slandering another's Buddha Nature can poison dialogue. You have the exact same capability for Buddhahood inside you that I do -- or that President Trump does -- and when you deny that potential within another, you are denying it within yourself and everyone else. This only serves to fuel the hate and fear and partisan rancor that dominate our discourse these days. You have it within you to be the catalyst for transformative change in the world -- I truly believe this -- do you think that blaming a group of people that are facing as bleak a situation as anyone in this country is a good way to go about creating the future you would like to live in?


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#67

Post by maydijo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:07 pm

No, Slarti, I'm saying we have different opinions. That's not a personal attack. It's quite possible for two people to look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions.

You seem to think that truth is concrete in every. single. case. It just isn't. And frankly when people disagree with you, you try to run them into the ground, which is far more stifling of conversation than merely saying, Well, we disagree, let's move on. Discussing anything with you is futile because you are so convinced of your own rightness, and that the rest of us are idiots. But disagreeing with you does not mean I am attacking you, and it doesn't mean I'm an idiot, it merely means I disagree with you.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#68

Post by RoadScholar » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:09 pm

Oh, I disagree with Slati quite often, and I'm pretty sure he knows better than to think I'm an idiot.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#69

Post by RVInit » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:30 pm

:swoon: :swoon: :swoon:

OK, I will try one more time to be concise. If this doesn't work, I give up. It's really not all that important.

I made the point that the fucken story was worthless. Why do I think the story was worthless? I thought the story was worthless because it told me this woman "heard" that Clinton was an elite. A less than worthless story would have told me WHERE and WHY did that woman "hear" that Clinton was an elite. That's what reporters do - they ask questions, get answers, then ask follow up questions based on those answers. The reporter in this case either allowed this woman to get away with a bullshit response without at least attempting to get her to explain where she "heard" this from - or, asked the question and failed to put the response into the story. We are left to make assumptions about where she "heard" that Clinton is an elite. Do I think I know "where she heard it"? Yeah, anyone who has paid any attention to my postings can probably guess where I think she heard it from. My constant raving about rwnj media should tell anyone that I do probably have a good guess as to where she "heard" this from. But that doesn't change the fact that IMO this was a worthless story. Again, I am not asking one of "us" to give our opinion about where we think she may have heard this from. I was making a point that this is a worthless story.

I hope I have done a better job of explaining my post this time.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#70

Post by maydijo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:36 pm

Further to that, I have an issue with the use of "elite" as an insult. There's nothing wrong with being elite. If someone is born into a position of wealth and influence, that's not a bad thing, no more than it's a bad thing to be born in poverty. If someone works hard and pulls themselves up to a position of wealth and influence, that's not a bad thing, no more than it's a bad thing if someone falls into poverty. We have got to stop assigning value judgements to socio-economic status.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#71

Post by RVInit » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:03 pm

maydijo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:36 pm
Further to that, I have an issue with the use of "elite" as an insult. There's nothing wrong with being elite. If someone is born into a position of wealth and influence, that's not a bad thing, no more than it's a bad thing to be born in poverty. If someone works hard and pulls themselves up to a position of wealth and influence, that's not a bad thing, no more than it's a bad thing if someone falls into poverty. We have got to stop assigning value judgements to socio-economic status.
:like: yes, there is also that issue...the woman was clearly using the word "elite" as an insult and there should be some follow up on that, too. Not just leaving us making assumptions, but the reporter should have called on that woman to explain why "elite" is a bad thing - make the woman say it in her own words. Letting people get away with these kind of half-answers and no explanations just condones this crap. At least make the woman squirm, as I suspect would have happened upon any amount of real questioning.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#72

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:29 pm

Furthermore, the words 'elite' and 'elitist' need to be defined by the user(s) before one can come to an opinion as to whether such appellations are accurate or not. Otherwise 'elite' is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I could accuse blue-collar white christian Republicans of being elitists because they believe only they are Real Americans, meaning the rest of us don't count.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#73

Post by maydijo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:16 pm

Yes, absolutely. To me, an elitist is someone who puts themselves on a pedestal and doesn't care about other people. By that measurement Trump is far more of an elitist than either Clinton (or even both combined.)

My undergrad is from a perfectly fine four-year public university - certainly nothing elite about it. Still, it's more than a lot of people I grew up with were able to do. In the past, when I was on Facebook, when I expressed an opinion that was different from theirs, they shat all over it and used my degree as evidence that I am an out-of-touch elitist. So when I hear people who are of a similar socioeconomic background to the people I grow up with claiming that Clinton is "elitist", theirs are the voices in my head. The mere fact that I have a couple of university degrees and can hold down a job that pays better than minimum wage doesn't make me an "elitist."

I know, Slarti, that you aren't like that; I think what is happening here is that you and I have different definitions of the word "elitist."

I find the term "elite" harder to define. I have a friend who was born into a royal family. He will inherit a title when his father dies. Does that make him elite? What about when I tell you that he has no family money; has never met the monarch; drives an older car; and yes, he has a good job, courtesy of his parents' paying for his education, but that it pays no better than the job of a neighbour of mine, who drives a bulldozer on a mine site and barely finished high school? I think "elite" is relative. By global and historical standards, I'm elite. I am a citizen of two wealthy, developed countries, I have an historically unprecedented amount of freedom, I have a decent education, I can turn on the tap to get fresh water, I can instantly communicate with people on the other side of the world, etc. These things make me more "elite" than about 95% of everyone who has ever lived.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#74

Post by DejaMoo » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:14 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:57 pm

I had already read the article (all the way to the end) before you posted it and what I cannot seem to understand is why you and others choose to blame the victim.. If anyone are victims of right-wing propaganda, these people are. Yet you write them off without showing the empathy to at least try to understand them, let alone help them, or even the sympathy to pity them.
My, what a number of conclusions you've leapt to about me here.
Do you really think you'd be any different if you were raised in their environment with their resources?
Yes, because I am and I was.
If Democrats had started trying to reach these people back in the 80s instead of leaving them to the tender mercies of the evangelicals (and the Dominionist movement in politics in particular), we wouldn't be in this situation right now.
Oh, you mean the era of Republican Lite, when the Democrats tried to sway the Republican voters by me-tooing Republican positions? Worked a treat, didn't it.
I assume you've read 1984 so you should understand that if people don't have the vocabulary to describe nuance, not only will they not understand it, but they will be unable to even conceive of it. And your solution is to say that everyone who has been indoctrinated by Big Brother is completely beyond hope and can never be redeemed. I find this view double plus ungood.
I'm a pragmatist; you're an idealist. I'd rather put resources (which are always limited) toward the goal that has the greater chance of success. What is more likely to happen: persuade adults to make a more or less 180 degree turn in their political beliefs and affiliation, or persuade those who are already/mostly on your side to simply make the effort to show up and cast a vote?

There's no reason we can't work on both. You push your rock and I'll push mine. . . but from my side, it looks like yours is bigger.



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