Mapping the American Working Class

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TollandRCR
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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#26

Post by TollandRCR » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:34 pm

listeme wrote:
When it comes to the argument that Democrats can win by promising more robust social and jobs programs, that’s exactly what Hillary Clinton did. As Vox demonstrated in December, most of Clinton’s campaign speeches were focused on jobs and the economy, not on “identity politics,” as her detractors claimed. Her campaign platform was the most progressive in history and included support for a $15 minimum wage and adding a public option to Obamacare.
I have listened to several of her speeches. Would you recommend a specific video?


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#27

Post by listeme » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:51 pm

This is one of the articles referenced, by the way.

Again, I'm not claiming my theories or the theories I'm attracted to are the right ones. But this kind of analysis is at least interesting and should be part of what we are talking about:

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/ ... ton-speech

This is the summary of the graphs in the article:
Yeah. She talked about jobs, workers, and the economy — more than anything else. They were the central focus of her public speeches.

You can critique how she talked about jobs, workers, and the economy. Maybe she should have used different words, or framed things differently. Maybe, despite running on an agenda of worker-friendly policies, she should have chosen a clearer, simpler economic theme and hit it more often.

You can critique where she talked about jobs, workers, and the economy. Clearly, in retrospect, she should have spent more time and resources in those upper Midwestern swing states.

But you cannot say she didn’t talk about jobs, workers, and the economy. She talked about them all the time, more than anything else.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#28

Post by listeme » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:51 pm

Sorry, Tolland, I don't have any speeches saved :) I am sure they are still on the internet.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#29

Post by magdalen77 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:39 pm

DejaMoo wrote: now it's mainly apartments leased on an annual basis, requiring an application form (for which they charge a fee), then you have pass a credit check, background check, and be able to pay upfront the first and last month's rent, plus a security deposit. Most Americans simply haven't got that much cash to put down, much less have anything left over to live on until they land a job and finally get their first paycheck (usually two weeks after starting work, but sometimes as long as a month).
We even found that when we had to quickly find a place to live after losing our apartment in a fire. Fortunately both of us have good enough jobs that we can get together first, last and security in a month without scrimping too much and fortunately we live a fairly low cost area (for the northeast US). Most of the other tenants in our building were retired or on disability* (when I went to rent from my landlord I wanted his quiet building so I ended up in the "seniors' building" at 45). :-D

*Luckily Montgomery County PA a fairly wealthy county and has a pretty good housing authority, AFAIK everyone found housing within a month.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#30

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:53 pm

listeme wrote:Salon: http://www.salon.com/2017/03/30/new-ele ... as-better/

A couple of snippets:
When it comes to the argument that Democrats can win by promising more robust social and jobs programs, that’s exactly what Hillary Clinton did. As Vox demonstrated in December, most of Clinton’s campaign speeches were focused on jobs and the economy, not on “identity politics,” as her detractors claimed. Her campaign platform was the most progressive in history and included support for a $15 minimum wage and adding a public option to Obamacare.
She would've gotten their votes if she'd only promised federal subsidies for guns, ammo, smokes, and booze purchases.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#31

Post by TollandRCR » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:05 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
listeme wrote:
When it comes to the argument that Democrats can win by promising more robust social and jobs programs, that’s exactly what Hillary Clinton did. As Vox demonstrated in December, most of Clinton’s campaign speeches were focused on jobs and the economy, not on “identity politics,” as her detractors claimed. Her campaign platform was the most progressive in history and included support for a $15 minimum wage and adding a public option to Obamacare.
I have listened to several of her speeches. Would you recommend a specific video?
I have listened to a number of Hillary Clinton's campaign speeches at https://hillaryspeeches.com/. I still have some to go. It is rather boring.

A promise of high-tech jobs, of a $15/hour minimum wage, and of whatever else the Democratic platform promised could not do much to persuade a working class miner or factory worker to vote for HRC. Her attempts to establish herself as "one of them" fail entirely beside her father's well-to-do status and her multimillionaire status.

When the Clintons left office they asked for donations to cover their legal expenses. I have yet to see a refund with thanks, and all that I see is a wealthy couple on the make.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#32

Post by listeme » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:35 pm

Yes, you have made your feelings about Hillary quite clear. I have been trying to walk on rather than engage. I largely refrain from posting the anti-Bernie things that resonate with me, despite personally feeling like he shares the blame for the 2016 result. There were several links critical of Bernie that I did not post last week, for instance.

I don't think that goes anywhere useful. But if you are interested, I can expand on some of this. (For instance, I find his stump speeches both awkward and clueless, and I think he now continues to divide the Democrats at a time when we need to be fighting hard.)

I like the Clintons and think they have done and continue to do great work. Others here do not. Others here love Bernie and think he is what the country and party needs. I disagree, a lot. I think he has harmed the country.

I just don't know how a conversation can happen without bringing the bitterness of the primary into the forum. I just feel like the constant sour anti-Clinton posts kind of suck, especially when some of us -- or at least me -- are trying to talk peacably about the future of the party and NOT relitigate the primary.

But shucks, maybe we need to do that and get it over with.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#33

Post by RVInit » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:26 pm

My issue with Bernie is the word "Socialism". Not that it bothers me, but it bothers too many people. This country is not going to elect anyone who refers to themselves as any kind of socialist, I don't care what word you put in front of it. Had he been the nominee, I would have happily voted for him but I know too many others who wouldn't. And we would never hear the end of it. That is baggage that, IMO, is not going to be overcome at this time. Who knows about the future, but right now, we will not elect a "socialist" of any flavor. IMO. Also, too: I do believe he fostered divisiveness toward the end of the primaries, which is exactly when it would hurt the most.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#34

Post by Foggy » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:37 pm

Bernie and Hillary are LAST YEAR'S NEWS.

Neither of them can realistically run again for president. I don't know why we're even discussing them. Hillary's done. Bernie might run for Senate, but he's going to be 117 years old or something in 2020.

I want to find someone YOUNG. :blink:


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#35

Post by listeme » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:42 pm

Foggy wrote:Bernie and Hillary are LAST YEAR'S NEWS.

Neither of them can realistically run again for president. I don't know why we're even discussing them. Hillary's done. Bernie might run for Senate, but he's going to be 117 years old or something in 2020.

I want to find someone YOUNG. :blink:
Well, people keep telling HER to shut up and HE keeps telling the Democrats how much they suck.

But I will read between the lines and not try to relitigate anything. But jeez louise. It's frustrating.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#36

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:45 pm

Foggy wrote:Bernie and Hillary are LAST YEAR'S NEWS.

Neither of them can realistically run again for president. I don't know why we're even discussing them. Hillary's done. Bernie might run for Senate, but he's going to be 117 years old or something in 2020.

I want to find someone YOUNG. :blink:
It's times like these that I really regret the untimely passing of Paul Wellstone.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#37

Post by TollandRCR » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:57 pm

[quote="DejaMoo"][/quote/]Then make certain that Hillary does not again claim that it is her turn.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#38

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:11 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
DejaMoo wrote:[/quote/]Then make certain that Hillary does not again claim that it is her turn.
You might be wishing for a Democratic candidate without the baggage the Clintons carried, but the reality is: once the right-wing smear machine goes into operation, any candidate selected by the Democrats will end up tainted.

The Democrats could nominate Jesus Christ as their presidential candidate, and the right-wing smear machine would effortlessly destroy his reputation with those who let the smear machine do their thinking for them.



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#39

Post by listeme » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:20 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
DejaMoo wrote:[/quote/]Then make certain that Hillary does not again claim that it is her turn.
Can you please give me the quote/s you're referring to so that I can best respond to this?


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#40

Post by listeme » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:21 pm

DejaMoo wrote:
TollandRCR wrote:
DejaMoo wrote:[/quote/]Then make certain that Hillary does not again claim that it is her turn.
You might be wishing for a Democratic candidate without the baggage the Clintons carried, but the reality is: once the right-wing smear machine goes into operation, any candidate selected by the Democrats will end up tainted.

The Democrats could nominate Jesus Christ as their presidential candidate, and the right-wing smear machine would effortlessly destroy his reputation with those who let the smear machine do their thinking for them.
Yup.

Shucks, some of the Bernie fans let the smear machine do their thinking for them this time around.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#41

Post by Whatever4 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:32 pm

TollandRCR wrote:Then make certain that Hillary does not again claim that it is her turn.

Michelle Obama said it was Hillary's turn, Krauthammer said Hillary acted like it was her turn, news outlets said it was her turn to present her case, but I can't recall Clinton herself saying it was her turn to be president. (I'm not referring to anything she may have said in a debate, such as "it's my turn to speak".

It doesn't sound like something she'd say.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#42

Post by Azastan » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:46 am

TollandRCR wrote:Then make certain that Hillary does not again claim that it is her turn.
Are you certain you aren't confusing Hillary Clinton with Ann Romney?



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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#43

Post by listeme » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:38 pm

Another version of "everything you know is wrong!"* And this one is particularly numbers-free. But it yells at liberals for being smug ANOTHER way, which is "stop saying rural poor people voted for Trump! They didn't!"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... fault.html
Then there’s the problem of income. Poor people famously do not vote in anywhere near the numbers their wealthier peers do. Yet suddenly we’re all pretending that the people with the least political power in a country that is run on money and fantasies of meritocracy are the kingmakers, the real power behind Trump’s throne. It must be nice, after years of rhetoric about the 99 percent and endless discussions about income inequality, for bigots who think the poor are beneath them to finally have an excuse to unleash all the venom and bias they’ve been holding back politely.

There’s just one problem. Trump’s voters skew wealthy. Two-thirds of voters making less than $50,000 yearly voted for Clinton. People making more than that went for Trump, in margins that increased along with the tax bracket. His average voter earns $72,000 a year. It’s surpassingly unlikely that low-income white people voted en masse for Hillary. We don’t have solid data, but we can infer from what we know that many or even most voted for Trump. Still, it doesn’t follow that strong support from a low-turnout demographic can then be blamed alone for the election of Trump.
*Which really should be its own genre by now.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#44

Post by Slartibartfast » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:16 pm

listeme wrote:Yes, you have made your feelings about Hillary quite clear. I have been trying to walk on rather than engage. I largely refrain from posting the anti-Bernie things that resonate with me, despite personally feeling like he shares the blame for the 2016 result. There were several links critical of Bernie that I did not post last week, for instance.

I don't think that goes anywhere useful. But if you are interested, I can expand on some of this. (For instance, I find his stump speeches both awkward and clueless, and I think he now continues to divide the Democrats at a time when we need to be fighting hard.)

I like the Clintons and think they have done and continue to do great work. Others here do not. Others here love Bernie and think he is what the country and party needs. I disagree, a lot. I think he has harmed the country.

I just don't know how a conversation can happen without bringing the bitterness of the primary into the forum. I just feel like the constant sour anti-Clinton posts kind of suck, especially when some of us -- or at least me -- are trying to talk peacably about the future of the party and NOT relitigate the primary.

But shucks, maybe we need to do that and get it over with.

I don't give a damn about blame for 2016 --- there's plenty to go around for everyone, but the simple fact is that Clinton's campaign, despite enormous resources, failed. If we don't honestly look at why that happened (which necessarily includes what Hillary did wrong), then we deserve 8 years of Donald Trump. Too also, this isn't about Bernie vs. Hillary anymore. In fact, I don't think it should be about people at all --- as Deja Moo pointed out, anyone who stands up for the Democrats will be slimed by the right --- it should be about ideas. About what policies they will enact if elected and how we should fix the damage done by Trump after he leaves the Oval Office.

On that score, I have to approve of Bernie's "Medicare for all" push. The Republicans (and the Russian trolls) can plant false stories about Hillary or Bernie or Elizabeth Warren, but they can't change the meaning of "Medicare for all" and if they are forced into arguing policy on its merits everybody wins. Sound policies and concrete goals are not vulnerable to Republican tricks in the same way that any political cult of personality is. We need to decide what we're fighting for and, in my opinion, if we're fighting for a person (no matter how admirable) we're missing the boat on the real issue that our future turns on: science and reason vs. alternative facts. competence and expertise vs. entitlement and dogma. principles vs. ideology.

Hillary had her turn and lost. No matter what you think of her, she is clearly not the one who can lead us out of the age of Trump. If she was, we wouldn't be here in the first place.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#45

Post by Addie » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:46 pm

Reuters
U.S. South, not just Mexico, stands in way of Rust Belt jobs revival

MOBILE, Ala.

In the years since the 2008 financial crisis, this southern U.S. port city has attracted a new Airbus factory, seen its steel industry retool, and gained thousands of jobs building the Navy's new combat vessel.

Some 300 miles north in Huntsville, new businesses sprout in farm fields drawn by readily available land, low taxes, flexible labor rules and improving infrastructure.

As President Trump faces pressure to deliver on his promise to revive manufacturing in the northern "rust belt" states that put him in the White House, his biggest challenge may not be Mexico or China, but the southern U.S. states that form the other pillar of his political base.

States like Alabama have built a presence in the global supply chain in direct competition with the country's Midwestern industrial heartland, and even if Trump coaxes jobs back to the United States they may well head south rather than north.

Whether the "rust belt's" expectations are met will be central to 2018 U.S. mid-term elections and likely frame the presidential race in 2020.


¡Qué vergüenza!

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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#46

Post by listeme » Tue May 09, 2017 4:20 pm

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ty/525771/
White Americans carried Donald Trump to the White House. He won college-educated white voters by a four-point margin over Hillary Clinton, according to exit polls. But his real victory was among members of the white working class: Twice as many of these voters cast their ballots for the president as for Clinton.

In the wake of Trump’s surprise win, some journalists, scholars, and political strategists argued that economic anxiety drove these Americans to Trump. But new analysis of post-election survey data conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute and The Atlantic found something different: Evidence suggests financially troubled voters in the white working class were more likely to prefer Clinton over Trump. Besides partisan affiliation, it was cultural anxiety—feeling like a stranger in America, supporting the deportation of immigrants, and hesitating about educational investment—that best predicted support for Trump.
(I guess I've glossed over the 4 point win of college educated whites :( We have a lot of work to do.)

Lots to pick through in this article.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#47

Post by listeme » Sat May 13, 2017 5:36 pm

https://www.thisappalachialife.com/sing ... asnt-Trash

I saw this writer a while ago and forgot to add it to my regular reading -- I'm so glad I ran across it again.

While this piece pushes back against Hillbilly Elegy, I think it does so in a way that both Tolland and I can agree with. I have relatives from this life, btw.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#48

Post by TollandRCR » Sat May 13, 2017 7:30 pm

listeme wrote:https://www.thisappalachialife.com/sing ... asnt-Trash

I saw this writer a while ago and forgot to add it to my regular reading -- I'm so glad I ran across it again.

While this piece pushes back against Hillbilly Elegy, I think it does so in a way that both Tolland and I can agree with. I have relatives from this life, btw.
I see it as telling much the same tale of pain and grief as Hillbilly Elegy. Poverty, abuse, addictions, lack of opportunity. However, it ends in a different place.
When people are eaten up mentally and physically by a lifetime of compounded shitty choices, they reach a point where they can't even decide what is best anymore, because they realize that no matter what they do - no matter how hard they try - they are cogs in a broken machine and nobody cares about them anyway. Poor Appalachian people are broken, but not nearly as broken as the systems that keep them poor.
Despite Vance having experienced the same things, he takes a libertarian turn. That is a stark difference. I join with this author in knowing that there is much that government (at all levels) should and can do to give people a hand up. In many cases what must be done is to restrain or drive out the exploiters. I agree that it all starts with listening. Hillbilly Elegy made that possible for me.

I strongly recommend reading this piece. I also recommend "Blessed are the White Trash." https://www.thisappalachialife.com/sing ... hite-Trash


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#49

Post by listeme » Sat May 13, 2017 8:23 pm

Agreed on Blessed Are The White Trash, too.


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Re: Mapping the American Working Class

#50

Post by Volkonski » Tue May 30, 2017 1:14 pm

The Addicts Next Door

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/ ... picks=true
At this stage of the American opioid epidemic, many addicts are collapsing in public—in gas stations, in restaurant bathrooms, in the aisles of big-box stores. Brian Costello, a former Army medic who is the director of the Berkeley County Emergency Medical Services, believes that more overdoses are occurring in this way because users figure that somebody will find them before they die. “To people who don’t have that addiction, that sounds crazy,” he said. “But, from a health-care provider’s standpoint, you say to yourself, ‘No, this is survival to them.’ They’re struggling with using but not wanting to die.”

:snippity:

West Virginia has the highest overdose death rate in the country, and heroin has devastated the state’s Eastern Panhandle, which includes Hedgesville and the larger town of Martinsburg. Like the vast majority of residents there, nearly all the addicts are white, were born in the area, and have modest incomes. Because they can’t be dismissed as outsiders, some locals view them with empathy. Other residents regard addicts as community embarrassments. Many people in the Panhandle have embraced the idea of addiction as a disease, but a vocal cohort dismisses this as a fantasy disseminated by urban liberals.

:snippity:

West Virginia has an overdose death rate of 41.5 per hundred thousand people. (New Hampshire has the second-highest rate: 34.3 per hundred thousand.) This year, for the sixth straight year, West Virginia’s indigent burial fund, which helps families who can’t afford a funeral pay for one, ran out of money. Fred Kitchen, the president of the West Virginia Funeral Directors Association, told me that, in the funeral business, “we know the reason for that was the increase in overdose deaths.” He added, “Families take out second mortgages, cash in 401(k)s, and go broke to try and save a son or daughter, who then overdoses and dies.” Without the help of the burial fund, funeral directors must either give away caskets, plots, and cremation services—and risk going out of business—or, Kitchen said, look “mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children in the eye while they’re saying, ‘You have nothing to help us?’ ”


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