Obama birth certificate on Factcheck

Smithereens
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#26

Post by Smithereens »



We simply do not know whether in fact he was adopted and acquired Indonesian citizenship under some heretofore unknown provision of the law that permitted him to retain his U.S. citizenship.

...

I was writing from the point of view of Indonesia, not the United States. Now read what I wrote again. The very words and syntax should have told you I was writing with reference to Indonesia's supposed forbidding of dual citizenship.It makes no difference which country's laws you were thinking of. There are NO laws of either country that would "permit him to retain his U.S. Citizenship". Since Obama was born a US citizen on US soil he could not lose it as a minor - period. There are no laws of either country to "permit" something that cannot happen.



Indonesian law was not specific about what they would do for a child over 5 years of age who already had another citizenship. They did not allow dual-citizenship for adults over 18. If they did not allow a child a dual citizenship then Obama could never have been an Indonesian citizen as a minor. It they DID allow a child to have dual citizenship (and the Indonesian law is not clear in 1967), then Obama would have had dual citizenship until the age of 18 (or 21) and then would have had to renounce his US citizenship. In either case there is NO WAY Obama would lose his US citizenship before the age of 18.



Indonesia has corrected the lack of clarity about dual citizen children in their country in their latest immigration laws. They now DO allow dual citizen children. They also mention in this law the defect of their earlier laws where a dual citizen child was undefined in certain cases. There should be no reason why you are still confused about this issue, or have doubts about an issue that makes no difference whatsoever to Obama's US natural born citizenship.
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#27

Post by bogus info »



Patricia,You like Sarah Palin and trust her, right? You think she is a honest person and can be trusted, correct?
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June bug
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#28

Post by June bug »



If he lied about some things, how are we to know when he's told a lie when he's said other things that haven't yet been proven lies, either by his own words or the research of others? I don't think there's anything wrong at all in a person's wanting more complete information about who the president of the country is and whether he can be trusted. So far the verdict among many thoughtful conservatives is that he cannot be.Hi Patricia,Please point out to me a documented case of Barack Obama telling a lie (not including the health care quote you referred to in your later post - that's a matter of interpretation of a law that hasn't been finalized yet). I cannot help but note that your follow-on statement when he's said other things that haven't yet been proven lies, appears to indicate such a level of distrust that I'm not sure anything he or anyone else does could ever put your mind at rest.
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#29

Post by Patricia »



For me, like for Andrew McCarthy over at National Review, the issue is not where he was born. The issue is his honesty and trustworthiness.So far, you have not caught him lying about the questions you are concerned about. And it seems that neither you nor McCarthey will be satisfied unless you catch him in a lie.



I don't think there is any way to appease either of you.



He says, born in the USA. He writes about his time in Indonesia. He was honest about the citizenship of his father.



You folks won't be happy unless something comes up to prove he is not a citizen.



I've said for weeks and weeks that I accept he was born in Hawaii.





Where has he betrayed his honesty? No other birth certficate has been found. Nothing has been found to prove him wrong. And, we all know there have been some who have tried and tried to find something. I'd bet a lot of money was spent looking.



Bottom line... you don't like him. I get it. We all get it. Doesn't make him a liar.



The lies are amply catalogued; you simply choose to ignore the proof, most often presented in his own words, and you persist in falsely stating that I think he's not a NBC.






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#30

Post by June bug »



The lies are amply cataloguedPlease catalog them again for us, then. I am not being sarcastic or malicious. I have not accused you of still wanting to believe he is not an NBC. I would seriously like to know.
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#31

Post by Patricia »



Smithereens,



All I was saying was that Indonesia may have naturalized him. That was the thought I intended to convey. Perhaps I didn't express it as clearly as I ought to have.



I am well aware that has nothing to do with his U.S. citizenship. If he was an Indonesian citizen, it is a legitimate item for the public to know about. Period. That is the point. None of these things that do not affect his eligibility are so "private" that they ought never to be spoken of, as if there was something shameful in them. So many things he just hides for no apparent reason. The public has a legitimate interest in knowing who the president is and what his life history has been. I can see no legitimate reason for a president of this country to conceal any of his major personal details. To become irate at people who believe the public has a right to know a great deal about the personal history of the president is irrational.



We never used to act like this as a country. If there were questions, the press would ask the candidate. Now, all we do is sweep unexplained allegations under the rug and the person acts as if it's some kind of invasion of privacy to ask about his life, while at the same time, he chooses what to reveal. It's not what we used to be like, as far as I can remember. Rumors always got addressed -- either confirmed or debunked. Today, all we do is say, "Well, there's no evidence," and we are not the least bit motivated to ask the person himself.
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#32

Post by Patricia »



June bug, Many are there in McCarthy -- and elsewhere. You can easily locate what articulate and educated conservatives say about his truthfulness by doing a Web search.One current one appears to be that you can keep your health insurance plan if you like it.Read SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE of the proposed bill. After 5 years, your plan has to be one of the government-approved plans.(b) GRACE PERIOD FOR CURRENT EMPLOYMENTBASED HEALTH PLANS.— (1) GRACE PERIOD.— (A) IN GENERAL.—The Commissioner shall establish a grace period whereby, for plan years beginning after the end of the 5-year period beginning with Y1, an employment-based health plan in operation as of the day before the first day of Y1 must meet the same requirements as apply to a qualified health benefits plan under section 101, including the essential benefit package requirement under section 121.Section 121 deals with "qualified health benefits plans."
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#33

Post by June bug »



Patricia,You didn't respond to my request. You send me to McCarthey who has nothing that's documented and a lot that has been debunked. Without any citations, you tell me to "search the web". The one example you provide is the only oneI asked you not to use because it is a matter of interpretation in a bill that has not been finalized yet.
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#34

Post by Smithereens »



Patricia,The press covering the campaign tries to ask questions that have some relevance to the election. Asking Obama if was once an Indonesian citizen would be a silly question for most legitimate reporters. I doubt the press corp had even heard about Phil Berg's lawsuit or read it's undocumented claims . Why would they ask something not on the mainstream radar? Reporters asking fringe questions are not part of the press corp for very long. And what would be the relevance of asking whether Obama was an Indonesian citizen when he was 6-10 years old? Everyone knew all about his 4 years in Indonesia with his step father and natural mother already. The only "smear" question asked at the time was did he attend a Muslim madrassa school (the smear fake story started by the Israel Insider) and it was answered quickly by the Indonesian schools themselves. No a Catholic grade school is not a Muslim madrassa school - duh.
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#35

Post by June bug »



We never used to act like this as a country. If there were questions, the press would ask the candidate. Now, all we do is sweep unexplained allegations under the rug and the person acts as if it's some kind of invasion of privacy to ask about his life, while at the same time, he chooses what to reveal. It's not what we used to be like, as far as I can remember. Rumors always got addressed -- either confirmed or debunked. Today, all we do is say, "Well, there's no evidence," and we are not the least bit motivated to ask the person himself.You're kidding, right? Hmmm, let me see... just while they were candidates, so I'm leaving out the things during incumbency: Franklin Roosevelt's paralysis, Dwight Eisenhower's affair with Kay Summersby, Kennedy's revolving bedroom door, Bill Clinton's "ditto", George W. Bush's drunk driving record and his refusal ever to give any answer to rumors of cocaine use...gee, yeah, in the name of equal treatment we really need to be nailing this guy to the wall, don't we?



And let me just ask again, , what's the relevancy? We're not discussing an issue that arose from Barack Obama's own behavior - this is about someone else's (his mother and possibly Soetoro's) actions when he was a child.
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mimi
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#36

Post by mimi »



If there were questions, the press would ask the candidate. Now, all we do is sweep unexplained allegations under the rug and the person acts as if it's some kind of invasion of privacy to ask about his life, while at the same time, he chooses what to reveal. It's not what we used to be like, as far as I can remember. Rumors always got addressed -- either confirmed or debunked. Today, all we do is say, "Well, there's no evidence," and we are not the least bit motivated to ask the person himself.When the issue came up, he posted a copy of his birth certificate on the internet.



When Gibbs was asked again the other day, he said:



"If I had some DNA it wouldn't assuage those who don’t believe he was born here," Gibbs said, talking about how he posted the president's birth certificate on-line last year to make the story go away, to no avail. “The President was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, the 50th state of the greatest country on the face of the earth.”Where in any of this do you see them being secretive?



As for the claim that rumors always got addressed? Let me know when Mrs. Bush decides to talk about that car accident. Or Dubya talks about his DUI.



And... then there's Dubya's military records. See here:

[/break1]wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_military_service_controversy#Release_of_military_records]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._ ... ry_records



We all know how that turned out. But, my point is, Dubya didn't respond.
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#37

Post by Patricia »



Patricia,You didn't respond to my request. You send me to McCarthey who has nothing that's documented and a lot that has been debunked. Without any citations, you tell me to "search the web". The one example you provide is the only oneI asked you not to use because it is a matter of interpretation in a bill that has not been finalized yet.Sorry I used a healthcare thing; I missed your request.This is a link in McCarthy's article: [/break1]abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/06/abc-news-jake-tapper-and-sunlen-miller-report-the-other-day-we-heard-a-comment-from-a-white-house-aide-that-neverwould-have.html]http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... -have.htmlFrom McCarthy at [/break1]nationalreview.com/?q=ZmJhMzlmZWFhOTQ3YjUxMDE2YWY4ZDMzZjZlYTVmZmU=&w=MA==]http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Zm ... mU=&w=MA==:Throughout the 2008 campaign, Barack Hussein Obama claimed it was a “smear” to refer to him as “Barack Hussein Obama.” The candidate had initially rhapsodized over how his middle name, the name of the prophet Mohammed’s grandson, would signal a new beginning in American relations with the Muslim world. But when the nomination fight intensified, Obama decided that Islamic heritage was a net negative. So, with a media reliably uncurious about political biographies outside metropolitan Wasilla, Obama did what Obama always does: He airbrushed his personal history on the fly.Suddenly, it was “just making stuff up,” as Obama put it, for questioners “to say that, you know, maybe he’s got Muslim connections.” “The only connection I’ve had to Islam,” the candidate insisted, “is that my grandfather on my father’s side came from [Kenya]. But I’ve never practiced Islam.” Forget about “Hussein”; the mere mention of Obama’s middle initial — “H” — riled the famously thin-skinned senator. Supporters charged that “shadowy attackers” were “lying about Barack’s religion, claiming he is a Muslim.” The Obamedia division at USA Today, in a report subtly titled “Obama’s grandma slams ‘untruths,’” went so far as to claim that Obama’s Kenyan grandmother is a Christian — even though a year earlier, when Obama’s “flaunt Muslim ties” script was still operative, the New York Times had described the same woman, 85-year-old Sara Hussein Obama, as a “lifelong Muslim” who proclaimed, “I am a strong believer of the Islamic faith.”Such was the ardor of Obama’s denials that jaws dropped when, once safely elected, he reversed course (again) and embraced his Islamic heritage. “The president himself experienced Islam on three continents,” an administration spokesman announced. “You know, growing up in Indonesia, having a Muslim father . . .” The “Muslim father” theme was an interesting touch: During the campaign, when the question of Barack Hussein Obama Sr.’s Islamic faith reared its head, the candidate curtly denied it with an air of what’s-that-got-to-do-with-me? finality: “My father was basically agnostic, as far as I can tell, and I didn’t know him.” And, it turns out, the spokesman’s fleeting bit about “growing up in Indonesia” wasn’t the half of it: Obama had actually been raised as a Muslim in Indonesia — or, at least that’s what his parents told his schools (more on that in due course).More from McCarthy at [/break1]nationalreview.com/?q=ZmJhMzlmZWFhOTQ3YjUxMDE2YWY4ZDMzZjZlYTVmZmU=&w=MQ==]http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Zm ... mU=&w=MQ==:Before January 20 of this year, Barack Obama had a negligible public record. He burst onto the national scene what seemed like five minutes before his election to the presidency: a first-term U.S. senator who actually served less than four years in that post — after a short time as a state legislator, some shadowy years as a “community organizer,” and scholastic terms at Occidental, Columbia, and Harvard that remain shrouded in mystery. The primary qualification supporters offered for Obama’s candidacy was his compelling life story, as packaged in 850 pages’ worth of the not one but two autobiographies this seemingly unaccomplished candidate had written by the age of 45.Yet we now know that this life story is chock full of fiction. Typical and disturbing, to take just one example, is the entirely fabricated account in Dreams from My Father of Obama’s first job after college: Eventually a consulting house to multinational corporations agreed to hire me as a research assistant. Like a spy behind enemy lines, I arrived every day at my mid-Manhattan office and sat at my computer terminal, checking the Reuters machine that blinked bright emerald messages from across the globe. As far as I could tell I was the only black man in the company, a source of shame for me but a source of considerable pride for the company’s secretarial pool. They treated me like a son, those black ladies; they told me how they expected me to run the company one day. . . . The company promoted me to the position of financial writer. I had my own office, my own secretary, money in the bank. Sometimes, coming out of an interview with Japanese financiers or German bond traders, I would catch my reflection in the elevator doors — see myself in a suit and tie, a briefcase in my hand — and for a split second I would imagine myself as a captain of industry, barking out orders, closing the deal, before I remembered who it was that I had told myself I wanted to be and felt pangs of guilt for my lack of resolve. . . .As the website Sweetness & Light details, this is bunk. Obama did not work at “a consulting house to multinational corporations”; it was, a then-colleague of his has related, “a small company that published newsletters on international business.” He wasn’t the only black man in the company, and he didn’t have an office, have a secretary, wear a suit and tie on the job, or conduct “interviews” with “Japanese financiers or German bond traders” — he was a junior copyeditor.What’s unnerving about this is that it is so gratuitous. It would have made no difference to anyone curious about Obama’s life that he, like most of us, took a ho-hum entry-level job to establish himself. But Obama lies about the small things, the inconsequential things, just as he does about the important ones — depending on what he is trying to accomplish at any given time.All of this is in the McCarthy thing I posted.
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#38

Post by Patricia »



Patricia,You like Sarah Palin and trust her, right? You think she is a honest person and can be trusted, correct?I like her political views; I don't know if she is a trustworthy person or not. I have not looked into any of the accusations against her. All I know is that I like her political views. If she pursues elective office nationally, I would take a good hard look at her character. Maybe I'd do it anyway, though, even if she doesn't run. I don't know. It depends on how interested I am in coming to a conclusion about her character.
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#39

Post by Patricia »



If there were questions, the press would ask the candidate. Now, all we do is sweep unexplained allegations under the rug and the person acts as if it's some kind of invasion of privacy to ask about his life, while at the same time, he chooses what to reveal. It's not what we used to be like, as far as I can remember. Rumors always got addressed -- either confirmed or debunked. Today, all we do is say, "Well, there's no evidence," and we are not the least bit motivated to ask the person himself.When the issue came up, he posted a copy of his birth certificate on the internet.



When Gibbs was asked again the other day, he said:



"If I had some DNA it wouldn't assuage those who don’t believe he was born here," Gibbs said, talking about how he posted the president's birth certificate on-line last year to make the story go away, to no avail. “The President was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, the 50th state of the greatest country on the face of the earth.”Where in any of this do you see them being secretive?





What do I have to do in order to get through to you that I am not concerned about his birthplace? Tell me. Please. What word must I use to break through whatever blockage is there now in your mind?



As for the claim that rumors always got addressed? Let me know when Mrs. Bush decides to talk about that car accident. Or Dubya talks about his DUI.





OK, good points. Not all rumors get addressed. But simple ones like parents, etc. are not like things a person might be truly ashamed of.



And... then there's Dubya's military records. See here:

[/break1]wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_military_service_controversy#Release_of_military_records]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._ ... ry_records



We all know how that turned out. But, my point is, Dubya didn't respond.



OK, but why would adoption be in the category of something that might embarrass someone?




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#40

Post by Patricia »



Patricia,The press covering the campaign tries to ask questions that have some relevance to the election. Asking Obama if was once an Indonesian citizen would be a silly question for most legitimate reporters. I doubt the press corp had even heard about Phil Berg's lawsuit or read it's undocumented claims . Why would they ask something not on the mainstream radar? Reporters asking fringe questions are not part of the press corp for very long. And what would be the relevance of asking whether Obama was an Indonesian citizen when he was 6-10 years old? Everyone knew all about his 4 years in Indonesia with his step father and natural mother already. The only "smear" question asked at the time was did he attend a Muslim madrassa school (the smear fake story started by the Israel Insider) and it was answered quickly by the Indonesian schools themselves. No a Catholic grade school is not a Muslim madrassa school - duh.The McCarthy article addresses the approach/pull away thing going on with the subject of Muslims. I'm not going to repeat it here. The school record makes the question legitimate, in my view.
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#41

Post by MaineSkeptic »



The McCarthy article addresses the approach/pull away thing going on with the subject of Muslims. I'm not going to repeat it here. The school record makes the question legitimate, in my view.But aren't we pulling away from the subject a little?



I don't remember it being about whether the question [about his adoption, yes?] was legitimate. I thought we were talking about how he hasn't provided an answer to the question.



In the first place, I don't think the question's been asked -- it's not like he's ducking it, as far as I know.



And, second, I fully grant that it's a legitimate question in the right setting. With all that's going on, it's hard to believe that any reporter with access to the President would consider it of high enough priority even to ask it. But other than that, I certainly wouldn't consider the subject matter off limits, and if it were asked, I'd expect him to answer it.
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#42

Post by Patricia »



You're kidding, right? Hmmm, let me see... just while they were candidates, so I'm leaving out the things during incumbency: Franklin Roosevelt's paralysis, Dwight Eisenhower's affair with Kay Summersby, Kennedy's revolving bedroom door, Bill Clinton's "ditto", George W. Bush's drunk driving record and his refusal ever to give any answer to rumors of cocaine use...gee, yeah, in the name of equal treatment we really need to be nailing this guy to the wall, don't we?



A simple thing like adoption is hardly a scandalous thing and is hardly comparable to your examples above.



And let me just ask again, what's the relevancy?



A president's life history is relevant and a suitable subject for public knowledge, in my view.



We're not discussing an issue that arose from Barack Obama's own behavior - this is about someone else's (his mother and possibly Soetoro's) actions when he was a child.



As far as I know, nobody is suggesting anything was improper about being adopted, if he was. Why such a simple thing like being adopted is considered on a par with having an affair is something I just can't comprehend.








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#43

Post by June bug »



All of this is in the McCarthy thing I posted....which I already read... and informed you in a previous post that nothing McCarthey cited is proven and most of it has been debunked. Oh, and I particularly like the way McCarthey uses as one of his "house of cards" cards assaulting Obama's honesty, the USA Today report on his step-grandmother's religion. Nice way to really stick with the facts, there.



Sorry - this is exactly what I said before. People who oppose Obama will always find a reason to doubt, even if the reason stems from doubts due to a previous, already debunked, unfounded rumor. It's fighting shadows - he can never win. In the end, he's wiser to ignore the circus and focus on the jobs at hand! No sense
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#44

Post by Patricia »





The McCarthy article addresses the approach/pull away thing going on with the subject of Muslims. I'm not going to repeat it here. The school record makes the question legitimate, in my view.But aren't we pulling away from the subject a little?



I don't remember it being about whether the question [about his adoption, yes?] was legitimate. I thought we were talking about how he hasn't provided an answer to the question.



Conversations tend to meander. I think we got to the point where I wondered if the question had ever been asked. I don't know that it has been asked.



In the first place, I don't think the question's been asked -- it's not like he's ducking it, as far as I know.



Yes, that's what we were talking about. I don't know if it's been asked. I find it curious, though, if it hasn't been. I've read reports that various things were asked for, like school grades, thesis, and maybe something else, but never that. So I just don't know. In my mind, it's an open question. I wonder about the answer to it, but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. I'm probably here today more because of habit than because of having any kind of quest. I'm not looking for anything from Obama.



And, second, I fully grant that it's a legitimate question in the right setting. With all that's going on, it's hard to believe that any reporter with access to the President would consider it of high enough priority even to ask it. But other than that, I certainly wouldn't consider the subject matter off limits, and if it were asked, I'd expect him to answer it.



I agree. I think the time has passed for it to be appropriate, though, because it was a more legitimate question when the photo by AP was published. That was close to the time there were several lengthy articles about his years in Indonesia and some interviews with people he had known there. That would have been a good time.




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#45

Post by Patricia »



Oh, and I particularly like the way McCarthey uses as one of his "house of cards" cards assaulting Obama's honesty, the USA Today report on his step-grandmother's religion. Nice way to really stick with the facts, there.



What is incorrect about what McCarthy wrote?
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#46

Post by Patricia »



McCarthy attributed the religion thing not to Obama, but to "The Obamedia division at USA Today." So why would you try to twist his words so that it appears he said Obama himself said those things? He was obviously addressing the approach/repel thing going on with the subject of Muslims. Obama's grandfather had converted to Islam from Roman Catholicism and taken the name Hussein, Sarah Obama said, but his children had inherited only the name, not the religion. Each person should be able to choose how they worshipped, she said."In the world of today, children have different religions from their parents," she said. She, too, is a Christian.[/break1]usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-05-obama-kin_N.htm]http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008 ... -kin_N.htmYears later, Mr. Obama met his father’s family, a mix of Muslim and Christian Kenyans. Sarah Hussein Obama, who is his stepgrandmother but whom Mr. Obama calls his grandmother, still rises at 5 a.m. to pray before tending to her crops and the three orphans she has taken in.“I am a strong believer of the Islamic faith,” Ms. Obama, 85, said in a recent interview in Kenya.[/break1]nytimes.com/2007/04/30/us/politics/30obama.html?ex=1335585600&en=f901477fd875c685&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/us/po ... wanted=all-------The pro-Obama press was forwarding the "Sarah's a Christian" thing, while the NYT was reporting what she said. McCarthy reported entirely accurately.
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#47

Post by June bug »



We're not discussing an issue that arose from Barack Obama's own behavior - this is about someone else's (his mother and possibly Soetoro's) actions when he was a child.As far as I know, nobody is suggesting anything was improper about being adopted, if he was. Why such a simple thing like being adopted is considered on a par with having an affair is something I just can't comprehend.Okay - I think I see where you're coming from here; we just disagree. What I find relevant in personal history are things that are probative of criminal or unethical behavior in my presidential candidates, not family history facts whose murkiness or lack thereof are not attribuatable to their own actions. I base my judgment in part on past actions, and how forthcoming people are about those (including mistakes and lessons learned), rather than on how forthcoming they choose to be about what their parents did or didn't do. Curious I might be, but I guess I don't feel they owe me an explanation for that. Like Maine Skeptic, I also don't believe the question has ever been posed and, as I mentioned in another post, I don't think the press is likely to pose it anytime soon - as you said, their news judgment.
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#48

Post by June bug »



The pro-Obama press was forwarding the "Sarah's a Christian" thing, while the NYT was reporting what she said. McCarthy reported entirely accurately.While technically that may be true, it's only technically true. He attributes a political motive to what may simply have been sloppy journalism. Further, he doesn't just describe USA Today as "pro-Obama press", he calls them Obamamedia which certainly implies some level of control from Obama himself or the Obama camp. And, frankly, if the thrust of your article is that Obama himself is disingenuous and can't be trusted, there's really no need to confuse the issue by bringing in other players' actions or statements, that is, unless your real purpose is only to confuse.You, Patricia, I respect. Your Mr. McCarthey...not so much.
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#49

Post by Wonk Hussein »



What is incorrect about what McCarthy wrote?Well, for starters, there's this:



Before January 20 of this year, Barack Obama had a negligible public record. He burst onto the national scene what seemed like five minutes before his election to the presidency: a first-term U.S. senator who actually served less than four years in that post — after a short time as a state legislator, some shadowy years as a “community organizer,” and scholastic terms at Occidental, Columbia, and Harvard that remain shrouded in mystery.Even ignoring the use of loaded words like "shadowy" to describe what President Obama did as a community organizer, McCarthy didn't even bother to look for information that was readily available online about Sen Obama's history as a public servant.



The weekend after my father's funeral in 2007, I couldn't sleep and spent that Saturday night researching Sen. Obama's 7-year record in the IL State Senate, because I was sick of the meme going around even liberal websites at the time that he had no "experience." I posted the diary on Daily Kos that Sunday morning. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/ ... ate-record. I post the link here not because of vanity, but rather to put my money where my mouth is going.



One evening's research, by a layman. 1500 words, and I cut out alot of stuff because the diary was so link-heavy it was driving up the word-count over the limit for posting. So I ended up keeping what I thought would be the most appealing legislation to a liberal Democratic audience.



I don't automatically disagree with people who don't share my political beliefs, but I have absolutely no respect for people who are intellectually lazy. There's no excuse for someone writing for a national conservative website to not cite links for every claim that's made.



When a writer doesn't do that, I know I can be pretty safe in assuming that everything they've written is, frankly, a pile of made-up shite that's slanted to reinforce what they know their audience already believes.



My 2 cents.
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LM K
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Obama birth certificate on Factcheck

#50

Post by LM K »



Patricia,



You like Sarah Palin and trust her, right? You think she is a honest person and can be trusted, correct?I like her political views; I don't know if she is a trustworthy person or not. I have not looked into any of the accusations against her. All I know is that I like her political views. If she pursues elective office nationally, I would take a good hard look at her character. Maybe I'd do it anyway, though, even if she doesn't run. I don't know. It depends on how interested I am in coming to a conclusion about her character.I was under the impression that running as VICE-PRESIDENT of the USA was pursuing an "elective office nationally".



As I stated in another thread this evening, it is unfortunate that your standard of proof/transparency/etc is different for politicians you like.
"The jungle is no place for a cello."
Take the Money and Run
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