Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

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Jeff
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#1

Post by Jeff »



A few people asked me some questions in my introduce yourself post.Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya. I know a lot of you are going to point to his birth certificate and a whole lot of other things. It's pretty simple for me.Until I see prof beyond a shadow of doubt I am going to have the opinion that he's inelligible. All of the evidence raises enough doubt that shows me there's something under the covrs that we're not being told.
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realist
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#2

Post by realist »



A few people asked me some questions in my introduce yourself post.



Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya. I know a lot of you are going to point to his birth certificate and a whole lot of other things. It's pretty simple for me.



Until I see prof beyond a shadow of doubt I am going to have the opinion that he's inelligible. All of the evidence raises enough doubt that shows me there's something under the covrs that we're not being told.emphasis mine



Thanks for starting the thread.



Yes, certainly the COLB would be a major talking point, but perhaps the sentence I highlighted may be a better starting point for a discussion.



To what evidence are you referring?
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MaineSkeptic
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#3

Post by MaineSkeptic »



A few people asked me some questions in my introduce yourself post.Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya. I know a lot of you are going to point to his birth certificate and a whole lot of other things. It's pretty simple for me.Until I see prof beyond a shadow of doubt I am going to have the opinion that he's inelligible. All of the evidence raises enough doubt that shows me there's something under the covrs that we're not being told.Welcome, Jeff.How would you like to proceed? Do you want to tell us why you think Obama was born in Kenya? Do you want some of to tell you why we think he was not? Do you simply want to state your opinion, as you have, and let the matter rest?Have you spoken to Patricia? She is by no means a political supporter of Obama's, but she has come to believe (if I understand her correctly) that there is no reason to doubt that he was born in Honolulu just as his birth certificate says he was.
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nbc
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#4

Post by nbc »



A few people asked me some questions in my introduce yourself post.Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya. I know a lot of you are going to point to his birth certificate and a whole lot of other things. It's pretty simple for me.Until I see prof beyond a shadow of doubt I am going to have the opinion that he's inelligible. All of the evidence raises enough doubt that shows me there's something under the covrs that we're not being told.Welcome Jeff. Yes, I understand that there are some who believe, without much evidence that Obama was born in Kenya. The unlikely event however is contradicted by the COLB which shows him born in Honolulu.That you hold Obama to a standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' shows a reverse standard which is not maintainable with logic or reason.
allison
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#5

Post by allison »



Jeff,



Welcome to PJ.



If you would truly like to have this debate, I am sure many here will be happy to participate.



I suggest you first present the evidence (with links or cites to your sources) that has led you to believe Obama was born in Kenya. You are raising the accusation here, and the burden of proof is actually upon you to establish your accusation: that Obama is born in Kenya. Since your chosen standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" it follows that YOU need to prove YOUR accusation (Obama is born in Kenya) beyond a reasonable doubt.



You seem to be asserting the standard, "I accuse Obama of being born in Kenya". Then "Obama must prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that Obama is not born in Kenya." But, the standard does not work that way.



If you (X) make an accusation against someone (Y), then you (X) must prove that YOUR accusation against whomever (Y) is true. Y need not run around disproving beyond a reasonable doubt that any wacky accusation you (X) or anyone else makes against him (Y) are untrue.



See how that works?



After you present your evidence, I am sure many here will be happy to present evidence which refutes your claim.



Again, welcome to PJ!



Oh, I would also direct you here:



[/break1]thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+Doubt]http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... able+Doubt



A standard of proof that must be surpassed to convict an accused in a criminal proceeding.



Reasonable doubt is a standard of proof used in criminal trials. When a criminal defendant is prosecuted, the prosecutor must prove the defendant's guilt Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. If the jury—or the judge in a bench trial—has a reasonable doubt as to the defendant's guilt, the jury or judge should pronounce the defendant not guilty. Conversely, if the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.



Reasonable doubt is the highest standard of proof used in court. In civil litigation the standard of proof is either proof by a preponderance of the evidence or proof by clear and convincing evidence. These are lower burdens of proof. A preponderance of the evidence simply means that one side has more evidence in its favor than the other, even by the smallest degree. Clear and convincing evidence is evidence that establishes a high probability that the fact sought to be proved is true. The main reason that the high proof standard of reasonable doubt is used in criminal trials is that criminal trials can result in the deprivation of a defendant's liberty or in the defendant's death, outcomes far more severe than occur in civil trials where money damages are the common remedy.



Reasonable doubt is required in criminal proceedings under the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In in re winship, 397 U.S. 358, 90 S. Ct. 1068, 25 L. Ed. 2d 368 (1970), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the highest standard of proof is grounded on "a fundamental value determination of our society that it is far worse to convict an innocent man than to let a guilty man go free."
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

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Post by Patricia »



A few people asked me some questions in my introduce yourself post.Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya. I know a lot of you are going to point to his birth certificate and a whole lot of other things. It's pretty simple for me.Until I see prof beyond a shadow of doubt I am going to have the opinion that he's inelligible. All of the evidence raises enough doubt that shows me there's something under the covrs that we're not being told.Welcome, Jeff.How would you like to proceed? Do you want to tell us why you think Obama was born in Kenya? Do you want some of to tell you why we think he was not? Do you simply want to state your opinion, as you have, and let the matter rest?Have you spoken to Patricia? She is by no means a political supporter of Obama's, but she has come to believe (if I understand her correctly) that there is no reason to doubt that he was born in Honolulu just as his birth certificate says he was.Yes, I'm here, off and on. Jeff, I came here seeking to understand what the situation actually was. Everytime I tried to get straight answers at other sites, I was banned for being an "obot," which I was not and am not. But I am convinced now that there is no reason not to believe that the president was born in Hawaii. If, on the other hand, there were credible evidence contrary to that conclusion, I'm sure there's a boatload of Americans who'd want to hear about it.
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

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Post by LM K »



A few people asked me some questions in my introduce yourself post.Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya. I know a lot of you are going to point to his birth certificate and a whole lot of other things. It's pretty simple for me.Until I see prof beyond a shadow of doubt I am going to have the opinion that he's inelligible. All of the evidence raises enough doubt that shows me there's something under the covrs that we're not being told.Welcome, Jeff.First, thanks for you honestly; I doubt it is easy to come to PJ when so many of us believe differently regarding the eligibility debate. I appreciate it when I know where someone is coming from.A few questions. I am familiar with many of the arguments for and against Obama's eligibility or lack thereof. Is there any evidence that has made you question your beliefs that Obama is ineligible? Has anything made you think "hey, perhaps he is eligible" or "that challenges my belief about xyz"?Another question. Is there a single shred of evidence that shows Obama was born in Kenya? (The grandma Sarah tape actually states that Obama Jr. was born in the US and the affidavits that Berg has are meaningless since neither minister uses their real name or speaks Lao). To my knowledge, those are the only pieces of information that point to Obama being born in Kenya...and neither meet the burden of proof needed in a court of law.Last question. What information do you want to see to prove Obama's citizenship? Would the Hawaiian BC be enough for you, or do you need more info? If you need more info, what is it do you need to see?I hope you don't feel like I am grilling you. I am curious about your thoughts on this. The Obama eligibility issue has become quite elaborate and means different things for those who doubt Obama' eligibility.P.S. Please don't feel ganged up on or if you do, please let us know. Many of us will have questions for you, but our intent is not to gang up on you. There are just a bunch of us on the opposite side of the issue and I think we are all excited to have an opportunity to speak freely with someone who disagrees with us (we won't get banned here ).
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#8

Post by rikker »



Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya.Two questions1) You FEEL more than certain. What court would accept that feeling as evidence?2) How did Stanley Ann Dunham travel to Africa without a passport? How did she get back to Honolulu in 2 days, as Phil Berg asserts?
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#9

Post by Reality Check »



A few people asked me some questions in my introduce yourself post.Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya. I know a lot of you are going to point to his birth certificate and a whole lot of other things. It's pretty simple for me.Until I see prof beyond a shadow of doubt I am going to have the opinion that he's inelligible. All of the evidence raises enough doubt that shows me there's something under the covrs that we're not being told.Jeff,It is fine to believe Obama is ineligible. That is a personal opinion and you can obviously base an opinion that on a dearth of supporting facts and opposed to all of the facts as you just demonstrated. However, when one moves beyond a personal opinion into the legal arena the rules change. Birthers like Orly, Berg, and their plaintiffs are discovering that lesson as we speak. What are the consequences of your personal opinion that Obama is ineligible? Really, none other than how it might reflect on you as a critical thinking person as seen by others unless you choose to ignore a law the President signs or some similar action.
"“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”

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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

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Post by Highlands »



Jeff,Since you have stated that you believe that President Obama was born in Kenya, I assume that you believe that the COLB that is posted on the Politifact website is a fake?Are you of the opinion that Politifact, Snopes, the State of Hawaii (including the Republican Governor) as well as the Hawaiian newspapers that printed his birth announcement are involved in a massive cover-up of President Obama's eligibility? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

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Post by Addie »



Hi, Jeff, and welcome.Have you seen a Kenyan birth certificate for Obama?A few people asked me some questions in my introduce yourself post.Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya. I know a lot of you are going to point to his birth certificate and a whole lot of other things. It's pretty simple for me.Until I see prof beyond a shadow of doubt I am going to have the opinion that he's inelligible. All of the evidence raises enough doubt that shows me there's something under the covrs that we're not being told.
"The very least you can do in your life is to figure out what you hope for." - Barbara Kingsolver
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realist
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

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Post by realist »



I think Jeff has enough questions to deal with at the moment. How about we give him some time to state his case of ineligibility (apparently Kenyan birth, but that may or may not be all), and go from there. ;)Remember, he's only one person.
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

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Post by PatGund »



Hello Jeff I look forward to looking at the evidence you have to support your belief.Thanks!
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Epectitus
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#14

Post by Epectitus »



A few people asked me some questions in my introduce yourself post.



Basically I believe that Obama is not eligible to be president because I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya. I know a lot of you are going to point to his birth certificate and a whole lot of other things. It's pretty simple for me.



Until I see prof beyond a shadow of doubt I am going to have the opinion that he's inelligible. All of the evidence raises enough doubt that shows me there's something under the covrs that we're not being told.For starters, it is my deepest hope (without any intended sarcasm or irony) that you embrace the powerful and valuable constitutional remedy you have at your disposal for acting on your concerns; withhold your vote. Ain't democracy a wonderful thing?



Second, can you do what no other Birther has ever been able to do? I.e. actually show us some of the "evidence" that would lead to believe he was born, in of all places, Kenya? Cause I gotta tell ya... I've been asking you guys for such evidence since September of last year, and nobody seems to have it handy.



Third, I find it fascinating that you can go from an amorphous and ambiguous concern like "there's something under the covrs that we're not being told," to a specific, particular and crystalline conclusion such as "he was born in Kenya." I mean, why that conclusion as opposed to any other? Why not, oh..., that he was born in Schenectady? Or that his real name is Poindexter? Or that he is a girl?



The most amusing thing about your post is its certitude in a conclusion that derives (as you admit yourself) entirely from ignorance. That's a pretty neat trick. I'm sure you can understand why few are likely to find it reasonable.
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

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Post by elliewyatt »



A short musical interlude


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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#16

Post by iangould »



Jeff, at this point, there are thousands of pages of argument back and forth regarding the eligibility issue.Rather than try to recapitulate them all here, can I suggest you check out obamaconspiracy.org?
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#17

Post by bogus info »



Looks like you guys scared Jeff off.
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#18

Post by Justin »



I don't necessarily think he's been scared off... but he also obviously can't be expected to respond to 15 or more people at a time. Heh. Give it some time. Not everyone hangs out on the site for 16-20 hours of the day like some folks here do.
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realist
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#19

Post by realist »



Looks like you guys scared Jeff off. Or maybe it's Sunday afternoon and he has other things to do.
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Res Ipsa
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#20

Post by Res Ipsa »



Welcome Jeff! I agree with Realist's comment above. Your most intriguing statement, IMHO, is:I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya"More than certain" is a fascinating state of mind, and I'm sure everyone would want to know what led you to this degree of belief beyond certainty.Rather than anyone here trying to persuade you, perhaps you could persuade us.
Thanks pal.
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neonzx
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#21

Post by neonzx »



Welcome Jeff!



I agree with Realist's comment above. Your most intriguing statement, IMHO, is:



I feel more than certain that he was born in Kenya

"More than certain" is a fascinating state of mind, and I'm sure everyone would want to know what led you to this degree of beyond certainty.Intriguing, isn't it? It's completely backwards. It is "more than certain" Obama was born in Hawaii on Aug 4, 1961.



At this point, to believe differently would requiring also believing in the biggest cover-up in history of the world. A cover-up in which all the MSM, all political parties including opposition candidates, and all branches of government, at federal, state and local levels, have been complicit. Literally tens of thousands of individuals from all over the political spectrum have come together to protect "the Usurper" and install Obama into the White House. Plausible?



Jeff, please remember Occam's razor; it applies here more than any suppositions which have been put forth.



(note: I am not a member of Mensa, so take my opinions in context)
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#22

Post by Curious Blue »



Jeff... when do you think Obama was born? (date of birth)

Also, in what part of Kenya?
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

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Post by DrConspiracy »



I see everyone is hiding their daggers under their cloaks.
Looking for gold coins in a bucket of mud - since 2008.
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#24

Post by Reality Check »



I see everyone is hiding their daggers under their cloaks. Send jtx over here if you want to see the knives come out.
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Res Ipsa
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Why birthers think Obama is ineligible

#25

Post by Res Ipsa »



I see everyone is hiding their daggers under their cloaks.PJ is what you call a "concealed carry" forum.
Thanks pal.
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