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mimi
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#51

Post by mimi »



Check out the wording on this....caution...PDF. Just 2 pages long.health.utah.gov/opha/publications/raceeth05/Race-Eth_AppdxH.pdfoops... try this...:[/break1]utah.gov/opha/publications/raceeth05/Race-Eth_AppdxH.pdf]http://health.utah.gov/opha/publication ... AppdxH.pdfEdit: Note: that sheet is CURRENT info. The point is that the race is self-determined. The standardized groups have evolved over time. However, race is still self-determined. Why is it so hard to believe that a man from Africa would not consider himself African? Or for it to be reported as such.

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#52

Post by Patricia »



Lola, No, I surely didn't see that. That is truly bizarre. That's all I can say. It's even worse with "American" than with "African." It makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Maybe our resident sociologist can weigh in?

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#53

Post by June bug »



The category was Race, though, not Continent. Do you call everybody from South Africa "African"?American is not a race either.... yet...



[/break1]genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bryajw/HardestyPhotos/Keala%20Hardesty%20birth%20certificate.jpg]http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ficate.jpgForget the "American" part. Born in 1907 signed in 1973...that's absolute proof that anyone could get a BC from the "State" of Hawaii at any time they wished without any proof. Pleeease tell me you are being sarcastic here. The certificate from freepages notes the person was born March, 1907, birth was registered April, 1907 - copy attested to by state official in 1973.

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#54

Post by LM K »



Lola, No, I surely didn't see that. That is truly bizarre. That's all I can say. It's even worse with "American" than with "African." It makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Maybe our resident sociologist can weigh in?You are thinking about this as an American. Obama Sr. would not perceive racial labeling as we Americans do. This was 48 years ago. Since this is a self-report question, and Obama Sr. chose "other" and wrote African, I think that this is a cultural issue of racial and geographical self-labeling.
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#55

Post by TollandRCR »



Lola,



No, I surely didn't see that. That is truly bizarre. That's all I can say. It's even worse with "American" than with "African." It makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Maybe our resident sociologist can weigh in?You are thinking about this as an American. Obama Sr. would not perceive racial labeling as we Americans do. This was 48 years ago. Since this is a self-report question, and Obama Sr. chose "other" and wrote African, I think that this is a cultural issue of racial and geographical self-labeling.I might be the "resident sociologist."



Had the form that Barack Obama Sr. filled out provided a set of check-off categories, as did the "short form" of the [linkbtn]U.S. 2000 Census individual questionnaire,http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d20ap0.pdf[/linkbtn], most but not all people would have checked one of the boxes. That would have been how Obama Sr. would have identified himself in the familiar American categories like "Black, African Am., or Negro." I have no idea what racial categories Hawaii had officially adopted as of 1961, but it is clear from the form that Obama Sr. was not presented any system of racial categories at all. I suspect that Hawaii then and now thinks of "race" differently than it is thought of on the mainland.



So, given no categories from which to choose, he most likely used the racial categories with which he was familiar in Kenya. Had he been given categories, he might have nevertheless followed the system with which he was most familiar, that used in Kenya at that time.



[linkbtn]This,http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/IPUMSI/ ... rms.en.pdf[/linkbtn] is the set of instructions for the 1962 Population Census of Kenya.



The instructions for "race" read:

Race.- Write European, Arab, Somali, or African, etc. Asians must write Indian or Pakistan.So even in Kenya, were Barack Obama Sr. to have been asked to identify himself by race, he would have written "African."



Google Books provides a [linkbtn]snippet of a relevant book,http://books.google.com/books?id=dMR259 ... t&resnum=7[/linkbtn].



The whole point of these racial classifications was to distinguish the ruled from the rulers, the colonized from the colonizers. What mattered was whether one was European or something else.



Thank the gods for DVR's. I've missed Orly but found something maybe more important.
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#56

Post by Patricia »



Interesting. I had figured the person filling out the form gave the mother and the father choices verbally. Thanks.It came as a surprise to me that Hispanic is considered a race by some people. That's in the last 15 years or so, I think. Since science has proved that my DNA may be more like a black woman's than anyone else's, perhaps race is being phased out entirely in favor of ethnicity. But nobody told me they'd keep the word "race." I think we should classify people by what their favorite music is, personally Edit: Tolland, what did you find???

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#57

Post by TollandRCR »



Interesting. I had figured the person filling out the form gave the mother and the father choices verbally. Thanks.



It came as a surprise to me that Hispanic is considered a race by some people. That's in the last 15 years or so, I think. Since science has proved that my DNA may be more like a black woman's than anyone else's, perhaps race is being phased out entirely in favor of ethnicity. But nobody told me they'd keep the word "race."



I think we should classify people by what their favorite music is, personally



Edit: Tolland, what did you find???It's probably impossible to know just what occurred when Barack Sr. filled out the form that became the info for the Birth Certificate. In 1970 I was just handed forms to fill out; I don't recall whether anybody told me how to do so. I suspect things were too busy for anybody to do that. That might have been the case with Barack Sr.: nobody told him how he was "supposed" to think about race. Even if he were given the "standard" racial categories of White, Black, American Indian, etc., he would also have been given "other" as a choice, and for that "African" would have been the right word to write for him if he followed Kenyan practice.





Race has been "going away" for decades. There has been a movement in some Black organizations for several decades to cease collecting "race" data on the Census and other Federal and Federally-sponsored surveys. Part of the argument in that in this increasingly multiracial society (you and me both), "race" is beginning to make no sense, but that is not the argument the Black organizations make.



Their argument is that statistics that are tabulated by race often tell a misleading story. For example, the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports report higher rates of armed robbery, for example, among Blacks than among Whites, as well as higher rates of Black on Black crime than of Black on White crime. I have had trouble accepting this argument, because I think there is a truth there that needs to be examined and dealt with. However, I agree that the association between "race" and crime rates goes down a lot when social class is introduced as a statistical control. It's not that the correlation of race and crime rates is spurious, but it is the case that there is a combined effect of race and social class. What part of that correlation with race is due to discrimination that is caused by the very reporting of racial differentials remains to be determined; I do think that prejudices are formed from such data without the needed qualification: it's more complicated than that.



A counter-argument is that we need statistical reporting by race to document differentials in poverty rates, for example. It would hardly be defensible to tabulate crime rates without race but to tabulate poverty rates with race. The statistical side of me says that would be deliberate distortion of the data. And it would give a lot of sociologists an enormous amount of trouble in doing their research.



Another counter-argument is that we need race data in order to make sure that such things as health studies are performed on true cross-sections of the whole population. A great deal of modern medicine is still based on studies of white males. That has led to some serious medical errors and bad diagnoses and prescriptions. Women were especially affected, because I think women probably are from Venus and thus are fundamentally different from males. This difference was not detectable in medical studies until NIH passed rules requiring that women be included in all studies. The same was true for racial differences. There was no good handle on how and why some medicines work differently for Blacks than for Whites, or why the incidence of hypertension is higher among Blacks than among Whites (if I remember my facts correctly).



A third counter-argument is that statistics on race document the political power of minorities. This was why Arab-Americans officially sought to be separately counted as a race in the 2000 Census. I and some others fought back very hard on this and convinced some advocates of this position that it would be unwise to do that. In the mid-90s it was already clear that discrimination against Arabs and Arab-Americans was growing; the first WTC attack was in 1993. Then old-line Black organizations fought hard against the introduction of simple ways for people to report that they are of multiple races; they feared correctly that some people who before had reported themselves as Black would now report themselves as, say, Black/Asian. The advisory committee to the Secretary of Commerce also did not accept that; we saw a coming nation that is coffee with cream and wanted to be able to capture that in an early stage.



Hispanic is considered an ethnicity, and Hispanics can be of any race, including Asian races. Ethnicity makes more sense today, to me, if it is asked as a heritage question. "White" is not my ethnicity. It is French/Dutch/Creole/French/Scots-Irish/ and who knows what else. Does that "ethnicity" mean anything on the order of what "Hispanic" means? No. In fact, my brain is demonstrably hard-wired against learning French. I think that has to do with the unpleasant circumstances in which one set of my ancestors fled France to England.





This discussion caused me to think again of Dreams from My Father, which I read soon after what I thought was a stunning political debut at the 2004 convention. I guess that I had not paid that much attention to what I was reading, because now that I've started reading it a second time, I'm getting a better sense of the man that I had supported since 2004: he is a wonderful human being. I just went there to see how Obama described his father ("African") and am sticking around to read what shaped this extraordinary life.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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#58

Post by bogus info »



All of you are forgetting that in the 60's, black men in America started referring to themselves as African American. One being the great Muhammad Ali. "float like a butterfly and sting like a bee,"



[/break1]wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali

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#59

Post by iangould »



Bogus, actually I think it's more likely that Obama Sr. was influenced by the first post-independence flush of Pan-African sentiment in Africa.He could hardly have given his nationality as Kenyan since Kenya didn't exist yet and I doubt he'd be particularly keen to put down "British West African".

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#60

Post by TollandRCR »



Bogus, actually I think it's more likely that Obama Sr. was influenced by the first post-independence flush of Pan-African sentiment in Africa.He could hardly have given his nationality as Kenyan since Kenya didn't exist yet and I doubt he'd be particularly keen to put down "British West African".As I said above, it is fairly clear that Obama Sr. was simply following the instructions for filling out forms that were used in Kenya at about that time.
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#61

Post by TollandRCR »



All of you are forgetting that in the 60's, black men in America started referring to themselves as African American. One being the great Muhammad Ali. "float like a butterfly and sting like a bee,"



[/break1]wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_AliI don't think American categories are relevant here, not even newly-emerging categories. I think a Kenyan used racial categories that Kenyans used at the time, as shown in the instruction to Kenyans how to fill out the 1962 Census form.
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#62

Post by rajah »



The assumption made by the birthers is that rules are made and steadfastly followed. In real life that just doesn't happen. I'm sure anyonehere could tell stories confirming this people are tired, in a hurry , bored etc. What we have to go on is the preponderance of the evidence. That preponderance indicates to my satisfaction that Obama was born in Hawaii when he said so. Minor discrepancies mean nothing. On the honor roll at my primary school is my name. When I looked at it some time ago it had the wrong initial and as far as I know it has been like that for nearly 60 years . By birther reasoning that would prove that I never went to that school and would cancel out any other evidence there might be. It was a simple human error mistaking K for R. and this sort of thing goes on all the time.Dick

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#63

Post by Lola_Getz »



I think we should classify people by what their favorite music is, personallyPerfect Patricia! From now on I'm "80s pop with a touch of techno". So much more decsriptive of me than "Caucasian"I like it too. Me, I'm "jazz, with occasional forays into salsa, 60s-80s rock and indie." Much better than the boring old Caucasian designation.

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#64

Post by iangould »



Sorry, if I go around telling people I'm Johnny Cash all sorts of confusion could ensue.

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#65

Post by Fredlo »



I think we should classify people by what their favorite music is, personally That would definitely be a better distinction to make a prejudical, snap decision about someone. I accept all races, creeds and lifestyle choices, but I refuse to accept Nickleback.

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#66

Post by Epectitus »



Aristotle the Hun says:July 29, 2009 at 1:31 amI just sent this to five attorneysDr. Fukino was safe making her first statement because it didn’t really say any thing:“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.”In her recent statement the good doctor may have Fukinoed herself.“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barrack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago….”In this statement she actually revealed information about what was on the Birth Certificate.She may have unintentionally obligated herself to reveal everything that was on the document.Like, what kind of birth certificate it is, and to examine what corroborating evidence supports what it says about AKA OBAMA’s alleged place of birth. If the birth was in a hospital, as AKA OBAMA has maintained, such evidence would be the name of the hospital and the name and signature of the doctor who delivered him.The wording on Sun Yat-sen’s Hawaiian birth certificate reveals that at age 18 he “made application for a Certificate of Birth. And that it appears from his affidavit and the evidence submitted by witnesses that he was born in the Hawaiian Islands.”Appears? It also appears that AKA Obama was born in Hawaii. Does the AKA Obama birth certificate on file with the State of Hawaii have language similar to the birth certificate of SunYat-sen?Ask a lawyer.[/break1]therightsideoflife.com/?p=6815&cpage=1#comment-18674]http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?p=68 ... ment-18674
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#67

Post by LM K »



TollandRCR wrote: I might be the "resident sociologist."Thank gods we have you!!!



Women were especially affected, because I think women probably are from Venus and thus are fundamentally different from males.



The resident psychologist may have to go medieval on your ass!
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#68

Post by TollandRCR »



TollandRCR wrote: I might be the "resident sociologist."Thank gods we have you!!!



Women were especially affected, because I think women probably are from Venus and thus are fundamentally different from males.



The resident psychologist may have to go medieval on your ass! I forgot to add that men are from Mars. I knows my John Gray, pop psychologist to the masses. At least he did not take his correspondence degree from William Howard Taft University; he took his correspondence PhD from Columbia Pacific University in California (before it was ordered to shut down).



I think the only domestic creatures that are demonstrably from earth are cats, although there is a school that holds that [linkbtn]cats are also aliens,http://www.messybeast.com/moggycat/cat-greeblings.htm[/linkbtn].
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#69

Post by LM K »



I think the only domestic creatures that are demonstrably from earth are cats, although there is a school that holds that cats are also aliens.Well, that is just common sense! Of course they are aliens!
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#70

Post by Patricia »



I think we should classify people by what their favorite music is, personallyPerfect Patricia! From now on I'm "80s pop with a touch of techno". So much more decsriptive of me than "Caucasian"And I'm "85% classical with the remaining share rock and jazz."

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#71

Post by Sequoia32 »



Lola,



No, I surely didn't see that. That is truly bizarre. That's all I can say. It's even worse with "American" than with "African." It makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Maybe our resident sociologist can weigh in?You are thinking about this as an American. Obama Sr. would not perceive racial labeling as we Americans do. This was 48 years ago. Since this is a self-report question, and Obama Sr. chose "other" and wrote African, I think that this is a cultural issue of racial and geographical self-labeling.I might be the "resident sociologist."



Had the form that Barack Obama Sr. filled out provided a set of check-off categories, as did the "short form" of the [linkbtn]U.S. 2000 Census individual questionnaire,http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d20ap0.pdf[/linkbtn], most but not all people would have checked one of the boxes. That would have been how Obama Sr. would have identified himself in the familiar American categories like "Black, African Am., or Negro." I have no idea what racial categories Hawaii had officially adopted as of 1961, but it is clear from the form that Obama Sr. was not presented any system of racial categories at all. I suspect that Hawaii then and now thinks of "race" differently than it is thought of on the mainland.



So, given no categories from which to choose, he most likely used the racial categories with which he was familiar in Kenya. Had he been given categories, he might have nevertheless followed the system with which he was most familiar, that used in Kenya at that time.



[linkbtn]This,http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/IPUMSI/ ... rms.en.pdf[/linkbtn] is [highlight]the set of instructions for the 1962 Population Census of Kenya.[/highlight]



The instructions for "race" read:

Race.- Write European, Arab, Somali, or African, etc. Asians must write Indian or Pakistan.So even in Kenya, were Barack Obama Sr. to have been asked to identify himself by race, he would have written "African."



Google Books provides a [linkbtn]snippet of a relevant book,http://books.google.com/books?id=dMR259 ... t&resnum=7[/linkbtn].



The whole point of these racial classifications was to distinguish the ruled from the rulers, the colonized from the colonizers. What mattered was whether one was European or something else.



Thank the gods for DVR's. I've missed Orly but found something maybe more important.Fantastic find TollandRCR!
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#72

Post by Patricia »



Sorry, if I go around telling people I'm Johnny Cash all sorts of confusion could ensue.Why?

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#73

Post by iangould »



Because I'm a lot shorter than him and can't carry a tune.I do dress in black a lot though.

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#74

Post by Epectitus »



The Hun outed his own sock puppet today on RSoL with this post;



[/break1]therightsideoflife.com/?p=6815&cpage=2#comment-18636]http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?p=68 ... ment-18636



Constitutional Lawyer says:

July 29, 2009 at 8:53 am



Dr. Fukino has opened the “Door” for Discovery of Everything about Obama in the Hawaiian Files.



This method of Discovery is through the Citizens Grand Jury process that I first wrote about on The Steady Drip months ago:



[/break1]blogspot.com/2009/03/two-ideas-to-empower-patriots-by.html]http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/ ... ts-by.html



All the Evidence necessary was provided to start the process of BO’s Legal Removal:



[/break1]blogspot.com/2009/03/all-together-now-say-omg.html]http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/ ... y-omg.html



The facts and the process for the Legal removal of Obama remain the same:



[/break1]blogspot.com/2009/07/our-privilege-our-right-our-duty.html]http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/ ... -duty.html



Phil, Sam, Leo D. et al have done their Duty. Now, it is time for all Citizens, all Patriots to do their Duty for their Country, to form the Grand Juries provided to them in Our Constitution by Our Founding Fathers.Constitutional Lawyer? Did the Hun join Orly and suddenly get a mail order law degree?
"Hell, I would wear a dress and ruby red slippers all year if we can prove this" - Mike Zullo

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#75

Post by mimi »



The Hun outed his own sock puppet today on RSoL with this post;If you go to the link, there is an article by EO_Leo. I believe that he is the Tennessee entertainment lawyer we talked about here. If I remember correctly, last name is Haffey. I'm not sure, but I'd place the bet.

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