What's a "pastor manning"?

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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1626

Post by Dr. Kenneth Noisewater » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:37 pm

Manning got another daily show mention
[bbvideo=560,315]http://www.cc.com/video-clips/dzelq7/th ... hard-times[/bbvideo]



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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1627

Post by Somerset » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:26 pm

Fortinbras wrote:It turns out this is no rude surprise to Manning (altho he may have kept it secret from his flock until now). His church (using, in court papers, the name of Bethelite Community, instead of ATLAH) has been embroiled in litigation with NYC for more than a decade over the issue of whether, as a tax-exempt church, it gets free water and sewer utilities from the City. The answer, every step of the way, was NO, as you might have predicted.

Manning simply refused to pay for water, going either in or out, all these years and the accrued bill is now more than a million dollars.
:gotalink:



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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1628

Post by TexasFilly » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:31 pm

Starbucks should sue him too. Also. That's soooooooooooooooo sick. Who thinks of this shit? Oh, nevermind.


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1629

Post by Fortinbras » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:01 pm

This link to Google Scholar legal references includes all cases that mention the Bethelite Community Church - not just those cases that involved Manning's church as a plaintiff or defendant but those completely unrelated that cited one of the decisions involving Manning's church. It should be fairly easy to sift out the cases with Bethelite in the title.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... _sdt=10006



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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1630

Post by TollandRCR » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:05 pm

Manning's video sermons have made many of the claims in Fortinbras' post, such as that tax-exempt churches do not have to pay water and sewer bills. Manning twists everything to come out in his favor.


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1631

Post by mmmirele » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:12 pm

While there's nothing recent (as of 2007), it appears from the 2006 case I read that there is an exemption for sewer and water for churches and schools. However, Manning's edifice also apparently includes three apartments, for which he also wants exemption. But that was as of 10 years ago. I have no idea (and no access to NY cases ) to see what's been happening lately.



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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1632

Post by Northland10 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:42 pm

mmmirele wrote:While there's nothing recent (as of 2007), it appears from the 2006 case I read that there is an exemption for sewer and water for churches and schools. However, Manning's edifice also apparently includes three apartments, for which he also wants exemption. But that was as of 10 years ago. I have no idea (and no access to NY cases ) to see what's been happening lately.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/water_s ... harges.pdf
PLACES OF PUBLIC WORSHIP In order to qualify, the organization must be a religious
organization, incorporated under the Laws of New York State. The premises must be owned by the
same religious organization using the premises and be used exclusively as a place of public worship.
If any portion of the building is used for other non-exempt purposes, the premises will not be eligible
for exemption unless the non-exempted portion is separately metered and billed. All denominations
are eligible. Clergy residences are NOT eligible except when clergy is also the caretaker of the
premises and resides on or adjacent to the property, in which case a maximum of one caretaker
apartment is allowed. (See also Section V regarding ineligibility for exemption because of funding.)


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1633

Post by Fortinbras » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:54 pm

Checking LEXIS, I found no reported decision involving Manning, the Bethelite Community, or the ATLAH Church, since 2007. Apparently what has been happening since is not attaining the level of a reportable decision - probably just attempts to recycle the previous legal arguments met by judicial references to the previous decisions dismissing those arguments.

The ATLAH building is used not only for worship but for all sorts of activities including a make-believe trial some years back that decided that Obama was some sort of fraud. The water allowance for houses of worship suggests, frankly, that the city expects nothing more than the very limited uses of a washroom. Not the sort of constant and heavy usage that a "community center" makes of the utilities.



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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1634

Post by Plutodog » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:29 pm

I don't see any damned reason for any religious exemption to paying for your own damned utilities. Even your church school utilities. Bad enough these organizations get property tax exemptions, and other tax exemptions, freebies. Any deity that can't pay it's own bills ain't a deity anyway, IMO. :madguy:


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1635

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:31 pm

One could argue that Government is making laws with respect to religion by giving them tax breaks; that property taxes being applied to all properties would be closer to government neutrality.


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1636

Post by Somerset » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:54 pm

Fortinbras wrote:Checking LEXIS, I found no reported decision involving Manning, the Bethelite Community, or the ATLAH Church, since 2007. Apparently what has been happening since is not attaining the level of a reportable decision - probably just attempts to recycle the previous legal arguments met by judicial references to the previous decisions dismissing those arguments.

The ATLAH building is used not only for worship but for all sorts of activities including a make-believe trial some years back that decided that Obama was some sort of fraud. The water allowance for houses of worship suggests, frankly, that the city expects nothing more than the very limited uses of a washroom. Not the sort of constant and heavy usage that a "community center" makes of the utilities.
In other words, your comment above was hearsay, not something you can back up with any citation or evidence. Correct?



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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1637

Post by Dolly » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:40 pm

FWIW: This is all I could find.

Supreme Court, New York County, New York.
IN RE: BETHELITE COMMUNITY CHURCH, GREAT TOMORROWS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, Petitioner, v. DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION OF the CITY OF NEW YORK, The City of New York, Michael Bloomberg, Mayor, N.Y.C. Dept. of Finance, N.Y.C. Environmental Control Bd., ABC Corp. Nos. 1-100, Jane Roe, John Doe, Respondents.
Decided: December 28, 2004 <SNIP>
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ny-supreme-c ... 43720.html

Court of Appeals of New York.
IN RE: BETHELITE COMMUNITY CHURCH, Great Tomorrows Elementary School, Respondent, v. DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION OF the CITY OF NEW YORK et al., Appellants.
Decided: June 7, 2007 <SNIP>
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ny-court-of- ... 53124.html

1/20/2016
Title: SUPREME COURT - COUNTY OF NEW YORK NYCTL 1998-2 TRUST AND THE BANK OF NEW YORK MELLON, AS COLLATERAL AGENT AND CUSTODIAN, Plaintiffs -against- BETHELITE COMMUNITY BAPTISE CHURCH A/K/A/ BETHELITE COMMUNITY CHURCH INC., et al Defendant(s).
Category: Sales NY : New York
Adnumber: 0000069537-01
Pursuant to a Judgment of Foreclosure and Sale entered herein on December 17, 2015, I, the undersigned Referee will sell at public auction in Room 130 of the New York County Courthouse, 60 Centre Street New York, NY on February 24, 2016 at 2:00 p.m. premises situate, lying and being in the Borough of Manhattan, County of New York, City and State of New York, known and designated as Block 1721 and Lot 31 on the New York County Tax Assessment Map.
Said premises known as 36 WEST 123RD STREET A/K/A 36-38 WEST 123RD STREET, NEW YORK, NY
Approximate amount of lien $ 1,028,939.34 plus interest & costs.
Premises will be sold subject to provisions of filed Judgment and Terms of Sale.
Index Number 113197/2009.
ARTHUR W. GREIG, ESQ., Referee
Phillips Lytle LLP
Attorney(s) for Plaintiffs
28 East Main Street, Suite 1400, Rochester, NY 14614
0000069537 J20-W F10
http://www.newyorklawjournal.com/public ... 0027085041


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1638

Post by Fortinbras » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:50 am

Somerset wrote:In other words, your comment above was hearsay, not something you can back up with any citation or evidence. Correct?
Not hearsay unless you count the newsmedia. Such established news outlets at the NY Daily News and the NYC TV stations report on what they describe as an ongoing battle between Manning's church and the city govt, and occasionally show what appear to be recent court papers.



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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1639

Post by Somerset » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:15 am

Fortinbras wrote:
Somerset wrote:In other words, your comment above was hearsay, not something you can back up with any citation or evidence. Correct?
Not hearsay unless you count the newsmedia. Such established news outlets at the NY Daily News and the NYC TV stations report on what they describe as an ongoing battle between Manning's church and the city govt, and occasionally show what appear to be recent court papers.
Indeed. In fact, The Fogbow is filled with pages and pages of links to news stories like this.

Got any?

It's not that I don't believe this could be true - what you're saying makes sense, and it sounds exactly like something Rev Manning would do. But I think most of us here like something a little more credible than "it's been reported."



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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1640

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:29 am

Fortinbras wrote:Checking LEXIS, I found no reported decision involving Manning, the Bethelite Community, or the ATLAH Church, since 2007. Apparently what has been happening since is not attaining the level of a reportable decision - probably just attempts to recycle the previous legal arguments met by judicial references to the previous decisions dismissing those arguments.

The ATLAH building is used not only for worship but for all sorts of activities including a make-believe trial some years back that decided that Obama was some sort of fraud. The water allowance for houses of worship suggests, frankly, that the city expects nothing more than the very limited uses of a washroom. Not the sort of constant and heavy usage that a "community center" makes of the utilities.
And what church doesn't have all sorts of activities in addition to weekly worship services? Day cares or mother's morning out, food programs, youth groups, bingo, nightly choir practice, pot luck dinners, community meetings, Bible study, the list goes on and on. Are you saying that any church which hosts events that require more than "very limited uses of a washroom" is out of line?



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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1641

Post by Northland10 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:19 am

Plutodog wrote:I don't see any damned reason for any religious exemption to paying for your own damned utilities. Even your church school utilities. Bad enough these organizations get property tax exemptions, and other tax exemptions, freebies. Any deity that can't pay it's own bills ain't a deity anyway, IMO. :madguy:
NYC has exemptions for non-profits and not just churches. I only copied the public worship as it was relevant to the topic. There are also many churches who do a great deal of public outreach with no evangelical efforts (food pantries, community meals, community groups such as AA, etc.).


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1642

Post by ZekeB » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:35 am

I've worked for several nonprofits. They were all tax exempt, but I don't recall that any were exempt from paying for utilities.


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1643

Post by Dolly » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:45 am

January 28, 2016
Controversial church in Harlem is deep in debt and may go up for public auction
........
The house of worship owes at least $1 million to creditors, including unpaid city water and sewage bills, according to documents obtained by DNAInfo, which first reported the story.

A state judge ordered the church into a public foreclosure auction on Feb. 24, the website said.

But its pastor, James Manning, says his flock is being fleeced.

“We’re a church and we’re tax exempt,” he told the Daily News Thursday.

“We are exempt from paying taxes, and that includes water and sewage bills,” he said.
......
But his woes run deeper than unpaid sewage bills, according to DNAInfo.

He’s also on the hook for $355,000 linked to nine federal tax liens dating to 2002, $28,000 to New York State and $30,000 in bills to other creditors, said DNAInfo, citing court and public records.

Manning denied having any federal tax liens and said he and his lawyer will fight the foreclosure in court.
............
“The wildest scenario would be that the de Blasio administration would throw a church, a school, a homeless shelter and a breakfast program out into the street,” he added.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/con ... -1.2513271


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1644

Post by Dolly » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:53 am

January 28, 2016
Homophobic Pastor's Harlem Church Up for Public Auction Over Unpaid Debts

HARLEM — The church that thinks "Jesus would stone homos" is scheduled to be put up for public auction next month because its pastor hasn’t paid his debts.

A state judge ordered Atlah Worldwide Church to be sold at a public foreclosure auction after failing to pay creditors more than $1.02 million, court records show.

The Rev. James Manning said in a phone conversation with DNAinfo New York that the foreclosure was mostly over unpaid water and sewage bills and vowed to fight the order, claiming his church’s tax exempt status means he doesn’t have to pay.
.................
Manning said he found out about the public auction last week and was previously unaware that there was a legal case against his church, despite the fact that the case began in September 2009 and his lawyer filed an answer to the complaint a month later.

What Manning didn’t say is that there are nine federal tax liens against him totaling more than $355,000 from as far back as 2002. He also owes New York State more than $28,000 and other creditors more than $30,000, public records show.

According to city records, the Internal Revenue Service released a federal lien against Manning in 2006 and the Bank of New York Mellon was assigned that lien in 2010.

The church does receive $186,000 in tax exemption benefits from New York City, records show.

The city’s Department of Environmental Protection would not say if churches are exempt from water and sewage charges, but the agency's website lists $194,000 in outstanding water bills.

The church had until April 2015 to pay back $1.02 million to creditors, according to court documents.

On Dec. 17, Judge Joan Kenny ordered a foreclosure sale. The debt was calculated by court-appointed referee, Arthur Greig. <SNIP>
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201601 ... paid-debts


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1645

Post by SueDB » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:30 am

Dolly wrote:
January 28, 2016
Homophobic Pastor's Harlem Church Up for Public Auction Over Unpaid Debts

HARLEM — The church that thinks "Jesus would stone homos" is scheduled to be put up for public auction next month because its pastor hasn’t paid his debts.

A state judge ordered Atlah Worldwide Church to be sold at a public foreclosure auction after failing to pay creditors more than $1.02 million, court records show.

The Rev. James Manning said in a phone conversation with DNAinfo New York that the foreclosure was mostly over unpaid water and sewage bills and vowed to fight the order, claiming his church’s tax exempt status means he doesn’t have to pay.
.................
Manning said he found out about the public auction last week and was previously unaware that there was a legal case against his church, despite the fact that the case began in September 2009 and his lawyer filed an answer to the complaint a month later.

What Manning didn’t say is that there are nine federal tax liens against him totaling more than $355,000 from as far back as 2002. He also owes New York State more than $28,000 and other creditors more than $30,000, public records show.
According to city records, the Internal Revenue Service released a federal lien against Manning in 2006 and the Bank of New York Mellon was assigned that lien in 2010.

The church does receive $186,000 in tax exemption benefits from New York City, records show.

The city’s Department of Environmental Protection would not say if churches are exempt from water and sewage charges, but the agency's website lists $194,000 in outstanding water bills.

The church had until April 2015 to pay back $1.02 million to creditors, according to court documents.

On Dec. 17, Judge Joan Kenny ordered a foreclosure sale. The debt was calculated by court-appointed referee, Arthur Greig. <SNIP>
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201601 ... paid-debts
And for what crime did Pasture Manning serve time???

It seems like several ex-cons went into the preaching business after serving their terms. They put to use the confidence game skills they learned in prison.


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1646

Post by Northland10 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:10 pm

ZekeB wrote:I've worked for several nonprofits. They were all tax exempt, but I don't recall that any were exempt from paying for utilities.
I suspect it would depend on the municipality. Chicago also has a non-profit exemption for water and sewage fees, but you have to apply for the exemption. The application process requires certain activities from the organization and there are different levels of exemptions.

Despite Manning's protest, water and sewage are usually not taxes but use fees. Part of me suspect he either never applied for the exemption or failed to follow the requirements (or lied on the form).


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1647

Post by Northland10 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:16 pm

I did notice that both Chicago and New York require non-profits that have non-qualifying tenants in their facility to have a separate meter for the space occupied by the non-profit. This way, only the non-profit gets an exemption for water use directly related to their activity and not on the usage by tenants, even if those tenants may be paying rent.

Manning may want to say that the renters are supporting the church, in many states, churches and non-profits amay not exempt from state sales tax.


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1648

Post by Addie » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:47 am

Daily Beast
The Harlem Preacher Hooked on Hate ...

Could this be the end for the anti-everything eyesore of Harlem?

Reasonable people of all stripes cheered when it was revealed by DNAInfo that the city of New York was about to foreclose on the church of anti-Obama, anti-gay, anti-rationality conspiracy nut James David Manning for (what else?) unpaid water and sewage bills.

They further roared in delight when, in a publicity move worthy of a Kardashian, the Ali Forney Center, the nation’s only 24/7 shelter and service agency for LGBT homeless youth, announced a fundraising drive to buy the church building, a historic edifice built in 1890 that once housed the original Harlem Social Club.

What better justice? A building used by a messenger of hate and ignorance turned into a shelter for the victims of hate and ignorance.

The city will hold a hearing on April 26 (postponed from Feb. 24) to determine whether the building is to be put up for auction. Pastor Manning, in flat contradiction to official city documents, claims that as a tax-exempt organization, his ministry doesn’t have to pay water and sewage bills. (Tell that to every charity and church in the city!) So unless he can pony up $1.02 million in the next six weeks, every liberal’s dream may yet come to pass.


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1649

Post by TollandRCR » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:08 pm

Rev. Dr. Pastor Manning's message to the Hamites: why are the white people so opposed to Trump?
https://youtu.be/NViQL4Qkl8M


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Re: What's a "pastor manning"?

#1650

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:29 pm

Manning intends to drumup support for NC cause Papal...


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