Regent U. L. Rev. goes birther!

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bob
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Regent U. L. Rev. goes birther!

#1

Post by bob » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:25 pm

John Ira Jones, IV, a third-year law student at Regent University, wrote a law-review note about birthers, Natural Born Shenanigans: How the Birther Movement Exacerbated Confusion Over the Constitution's Natural Born Citizen Requirement.Executive summary: Vattel, vattel, vattel!; it blames the not-born-in-Hawaii birthers for drawing the discussion away from the "real" issue. It is full of cites to serious scholars like Leo Donofrio and Mario Apuzzo. :roll: And it discusses Berg, Taitz, Strunk, etc. Even Doc C. and the birther scorecard get shout-outs.Somewhat surprisingly, a Regent professor praised the work. ORYR/BR links to the professor's post (from last month), so expect the usual characters there soon enough.Jones also wrote a note about Obama's executive actions on immigration; didn't read that note, but the summary makes clear the author is against as well.


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Regent U. L. Rev. goes birther!

#2

Post by Ragged Edgar » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:32 pm

"Whatever its merits, the birther movement’s persistent advocacy against Obama’s eligibility in the face of hard facts may have actually helped to downplay and discredit a distinct, more legally credible challenge to the candidate’s status as a natural born citizen." -from the abstract



Just like "he's a traitor" is a distinct, more legally credible challenge than "he's the Antichrist!"



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#3

Post by Gnarly Goat » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:32 pm

Regent University is Pat Robertson's outfit so consider the quality of scholarship associated with this institution.


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#4

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:55 pm

I just skimmed through Jones' law review article. It's worth an F in my book. It's dishonest and incomplete. It fails to cite Vattel's section 214, fails to deal with Wong Kim Ark and even fails to look at or deal with the definition of "natural" in 1787 ("native"). It's a shoddy piece of work, but one that Apuzzo can be proud of. Citing incompetent birther lawyers as authorities is pretty rich, too.



I wouldn't let this guy handle a lawsuit over a 25 cent stick of chewing gum.



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#5

Post by Slarti the White » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:13 pm

Doc C's comment on the professor's blog is great! :-bd











Groucho Marx is quoted: "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." I refuse to take any academic article seriously that cites me ("Dr. Conspiracy") as a source.I find Mr. Jones argument to be "warmed over birther with footnotes," and I found nothing that I hadn't seen a dozen times on birther blogs and in birther lawsuit briefs. It exhibits the same bias in selecting sources, ignores the same primary sources, and glosses over the same problems. It is the same argument explicitly rejected by the courts since 2008.Mr. Jones writes: "It would be difficult to overstate the influence of Vattel’s treatise on the Framers," but I think he succeeds quite well in doing so, relegating the elephant in the room--the lack of the phrase "natural born citizen" in any English language edition of Vattel in 1789 to a footnote, and there dismissing the translation problem with a wave of the hand. James Kettner in his 350-page book, "The Development of American Citizenship, 1608-1870," cites Vattel not once. And indeed, I have been able to find but a single citation from the founding generation of Vattel on the acquisition of citizenship, and that was in a letter to the editor of a Charleston, SC, newspaper by a loser in the race to be a member of the first Congress. No one in the founding generation that I know of ever talked about parentage as a criterion of citizenship or allegiance. All of the eligibility debates in the Constitutional Convention centered around how long a person must be a citizen. If the Convention were following Vattel, the United States would have had a king and mandatory state religion.Mr. Jones cites dicata in a legal decision to support the claim that "Vattel was the most widely cited international jurist in the fifty years following the Revolutionary War," but a legal citation is hardly an appropriate way to demonstrate a historical fact. In an actual study by Mr. Lutz of the works from the founding generation, the most often-cited jurist was Sir William Blackstone (as any lawyer should have guessed). Vattel lags behind John Locke, David Hume, Plutarch, Pufendorf, Sir Edward Coke, Rousseau and Machiavelli. (Vattel is number 29 on the most-cited list). Vattel cannot be discarded, but Mr. Jones discards Blackstone!



Moar at the link above...


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#6

Post by mimi » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:14 pm

So a 3L at a Christian law school wrote a paper saying Cruz can't be POTUS, and a professor from that same Christian law school agrees?



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#7

Post by esseff44 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:27 pm





Regent University is Pat Robertson's outfit so consider the quality of scholarship associated with this institution.





Yes, but that did not keep them from being first choice for staffing the Justice Department under Gonzales. I watched quite a few of the hearings when they were replacing the Assistant US Attorneys around the country with Regent's grads and their equivalents. Their mission is to bring the US law back in the line with Biblical teachings.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_ ... ontroversy



Star witness:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Goodling



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#8

Post by bob » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:01 pm

The author of this note is on the law review's editorial board; he's an articles editor.The law review's faculty advisor is ... the (contracts/bankruptcy) professor praising this article. :roll:


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#9

Post by esseff44 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:23 pm

Unrelated to this article but interesting for other reasons:



http://hamptonroads.com/2008/02/titus-t ... ction-guru



I found the name of Troy Titus listed under notable alumni of Regent. He is the son of the founder of the law school, Herb Titus, who was fired from Regent for being too extreme for even them. We have seen him pop up in various birther and other lawsuits and as counsel for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Alabama, Roy Moore.



Also, a 'constitutional expert' on WND explaining what 'natural born citizen' means:



http://www.wnd.com/2011/12/375625/



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#10

Post by Flatpointhigh » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:54 pm

Can you IMAGINE these nuts if we ever elect a JEW?



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#11

Post by mmmirele » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:57 pm





Can you IMAGINE these nuts if we ever elect a JEW?





We'll see the same kind of batshit nuttery if a woman is elected. They'll go straight for "the founders didn't give women rights, they can't be president." I wish I was wrong, but watch. I think I'm right.



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#12

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:30 pm

I've already predicted this elsewhere. The constitution uses only the masculine pronoun in describing the President's duties.



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#13

Post by BillTheCat » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:17 pm

Tough sheet. They'll be as successful keeping a woman out as they were keeping a blah man out.


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#14

Post by Reality Check » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:44 pm

Apparently the pressure of moderating 12* 11 comments got to Professor Pryor and he is calling it quits. :lol:







pryorthoughts4/21/2015 8:49 PM

I've never received the number of comments that this post. has generated. And to think, most have come in a flood three weeks after the fact. I appreciate the many insights and thoughtful comments posted by some. Indeed, I appreciated the others that seem to have wandered a bit afield. I am, however, bringing the comments to an end. It's time for all of us to move on to more fruitful pastures or at least to take this conversation elsewhere.





* I was counting his own comment.


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#15

Post by Epectitus » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:49 am





Apparently the pressure of moderating 12* 11 comments got to Professor Pryor and he is calling it quits. :lol:







Oh my... he bailed quickly.


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#16

Post by everalm » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:33 am

Meh, saved himself an awful lot of Birfoon grief, methinks I will keep a beady eye open for not him but the writer John Ira Jones the 4th, I smell an incipient Failio the Putz in the making



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#17

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:59 am

I agree. IV is going to be a terrible lawyer. I doubt he'll ever get a case of importance, but if he can glom on to a sucker like Kerchner he may get some publicity.



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#18

Post by Slarti the White » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:13 am





Meh, saved himself an awful lot of Birfoon grief, methinks I will keep a beady eye open for not him but the writer John Ira Jones the 4th, I smell an incipient Failio the Putz in the making







I'd be more willing to give him the benefit of that doubt had he not moderated comments from you (apparently about the history of the Vattel claims) and Lupin (probably one of the best available experts on the translation of Vattel), but, as it is, I've got to give the professor failing marks for integrity.


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#19

Post by esseff44 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:18 am

What about the Social Science Research Network? Do they have any standards for what appears there?



http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=2584111 Have they been noticed about the lack of honesty in this paper?



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#20

Post by bob » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:14 pm





What about the Social Science Research Network? Do they have any standards for what appears there?



http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=2584111 Have they been noticed about the lack of honesty in this paper?





SSRN just republishes what appears in journals. Your grief lies with the law review's editorial board, of which Jones IV is a member.





Jones IV is set to graduate this year, and, if he does well, will be licensed somewhere by year's end. He's obviously a birther; it'll be interesting to see if he attempts to emulate Donofrio and Apuzzo. He is smart enough to know that standing will be a problem.





Pryor is weak: he praised junk research, and when called on it, shut down comments. But he knew the comments would never stop.


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#21

Post by Jim » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:49 pm











What about the Social Science Research Network? Do they have any standards for what appears there?



http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=2584111 Have they been noticed about the lack of honesty in this paper?





SSRN just republishes what appears in journals. Your grief lies with the law review's editorial board, of which Jones IV is a member.





Jones IV is set to graduate this year, and, if he does well, will be licensed somewhere by year's end. He's obviously a birther; it'll be interesting to see if he attempts to emulate Donofrio and Apuzzo. He is smart enough to know that standing will be a problem.





Pryor is weak: he praised junk research, and when called on it, shut down comments. But he knew the comments would never stop.







Maybe Mr Jones IV would be interested in debating someone on RC radio? [-o<



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#22

Post by Notorial Dissent » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:32 pm

Bob, do you really think that with the level of ability shown in that article, that IV is really going to pass a bar exam, that does take some critical thinking, and actually having learned something? My feeling is that the level of sloppiness and laziness there exhibited for all the world to view and laugh at shows a definite lack of ability, and would certainly suggest the same level of effort and scholarship having been applied to his studies in general.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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#23

Post by bob » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:43 pm

Bob, do you really think that with the level of ability shown in that article, that IV is really going to pass a bar exam, that does take some critical thinking, and actually having learned something?Cf. Orly Taitz. (And Phil Berg, Mario Apuzzo, Jonathan Levy, etc.)I reread the article, and there's a lot of dishonesty, like burying the CRS memo in a footnote. Or conceding the only "proof" of the Framers' Vattelian intent is Apuzzo's speculation (again, in a footnote). And there are parts which I am sure Jones IV cribbed from wikipedia.But pass a bar exam somewhere, anywhere? Eventually:Over the last four years (2010-2013), Regent’s nationwide first-time bar takers (all states) passed at an average rate of 81.13%.97.2% of our graduates who had an LSAT score above 160 passed the bar exam on their first attempt.92.3% of our graduates who had an LSAT score above 155 passed the bar exam on their first attempt.87.3% of our graduates who had an LSAT score above 150 passed the bar exam on their first attempt.The national average for all first-time takers for all states is 77% according to the most recent available data from The Bar Examiner (Volume 82, Number 1, March 2013).


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#24

Post by BrianH » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:57 pm

A law student who has slogged through the basic classes and taken a decent exam preparation class can pass the bar exam. Exercising objectivity and judgment in the real world is a different skill set. Though for an institution seemingly a bit sensitive to the perception it may not be accredited, how this piece of garbage got published in the school's law review is the puzzle. Either there's virtually no editorial oversight or the supposedly best and the brightest students on the law review are all inept.



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#25

Post by esseff44 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:59 pm

Not only will he pass the bar, but if the GOP'ers are in charge of the White House, he will get a nice post in the Justice Department.



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