Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#201

Post by ZekeB » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:27 am

Don't that hick know from a Springfield Rifle?! Was he raised in a barn by animals?! [-(Ellie knows my gun.She's the kind of person I can sit down and talk with. :D
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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#202

Post by raicha » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:03 pm

Ellie knows my gun.I've got to stop reading threads backwards. Not sure if this is TMI or what...

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#203

Post by ZekeB » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:46 pm

Ellie knows my gun.I've got to stop reading threads backwards. Not sure if this is TMI or what...Can't you see it right there, Raicha? Look at my avatar - between my legs.
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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#204

Post by elliewyatt » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:29 pm

Ellie knows my gun.I've got to stop reading threads backwards. Not sure if this is TMI or what...Can't you see it right there, Raicha? Look at my avatar - between my legs.Don't take him hardly no time to reload, neither.

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#205

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:04 pm

Ellie knows my gun.I've got to stop reading threads backwards. Not sure if this is TMI or what...Can't you see it right there, Raicha? Look at my avatar - between my legs.Don't take him hardly no time to reload, neither. [-X Please don't tell us that you know how he cleans it. [-X

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#206

Post by gentrfam » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:12 pm

It pretty obviously was not, IMO.Let me just point to this [/break1]google.com/books?id=3hJLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA548&dq=cockburn+nationality&hl=en&ei=P-q-TMmdN4SClAfJ0oXoBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=cockburn%20nationality&f=false]Yale Law Journal article from 1921 (30 Yale LJ 545, 548):





A number of writers, some of the highest authority, have disagreed with the opinion expressed by Cockburn and have contended that the principle of jus sanguinis, as well as that of jus soli, was contained in the common law of England. This question has been a subject of controversy for six centuries or more, and I shall not try to settle it in the present article. •In his opinion in Lynch v. Clarke (1844, N. Y. Ch.) 1 Sandf. 583, Judge Sandford mentioned such high legal authorities as Lord Bacon, Chief Justice Tindal, Baron Parke, and Chancellor Kent as holding that jus sanguinis was a part of the common law, but equally high authorities have held the contrary view.The question isn't really whether the authorities were right that common law contained those born abroad, but did James Madison think it did.

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#207

Post by Reality Check » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:18 am

It is too bad that George Romney was "brainwashed" or we might have had a definitive answer for all time on this interesting question. (The Grumpies will remember to what I am referring. ;) )
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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#208

Post by silverbull8 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:16 am

I think people that are born outside of the United States to Citizen parent(s) are a special case, and it's unclear. McCain would have been a great test case for that, given his unique circumstances. But that leaves the questions: Are children born it citizen parents outside of US Jurisdiction Natural Born? I'm thinking of all the military kids that are born while the parents are stationed overseas. Are those children natural born? Or considered Naturalized? I know Lola asked the Consulate for her sons, who were born in England to a US Citizen mother. And, if I remember correctly, the Consulate said that yes they were considered Natural Born.RE: McCain born in Panama(March 19, 2008)The Tribe/Olson 'Natural Born Citizen' Memo (March 19, 2008)[/break1]scribd.com/doc/25457698/The-Tribe-Olson-Natural-Born-Citizen-Memo] ... tizen-Memo(April 30, 2008)SR-511 Recognizing that John Sidney McCain, III, is a natural born citizen.[/break1]scribd.com/doc/26603580/Senate-Resolution-511-McCain-is-NBC] ... ain-is-NBC(August 21, 2009)U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 7 - Consular Affairs7 FAM 1110 Page 1 of 137 FAM 1100 ACQUISITION AND RETENTION OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND NATIONALITY7 FAM 1110 ACQUISITION OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP BY BIRTH IN THE UNITED STATES7 FAM 1113 NOT INCLUDED IN THE MEANING OF "IN THE UNITED STATES"(CT:CON-314; 08-21-2009)c. Birth on U.S. Military Base Outside of the United States or Birth on U.S. Embassy or Consulate Premises Abroad:(1) Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities abroad are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not born in the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.--ed: I'll infer that to mean "every" child regardless of nationality, so as to preclude pregnant fence jumpers from making a US Citizen. But, Children born to US Citizens must be photographed, then the passport form and photo are filed, a fee is paid, then a passport is issued, effectively screening out unqualified persons.

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#209

Post by bob » Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:52 pm

Apuzzo allowed [/break1]blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7466841558189356289&postID=879708726712384637]this comment through moderation:The link contains a fairly long list of references. As I scanned through the brief quotes for each reference, I found none that supported the two-citizen parent definitiion of natural born citzen. This is not to say there is none in the list; I did scan the list rather quickly.The defintions for the most part equated native born with natural born and defined natural born irrespective of the nationality of the parents.In other words, there is apparently a lot of "evidence" out there that can be used to counter the putative definition of natural born citizen as one who is born on U.S. soil to two citizen parents.The link?: ballantine's [/break1]blogspot.com/2010/10/view-of-constitution-of-united-states.html]Natural Born Citizenship Research
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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#210

Post by mimi » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:20 pm

The Putz didn't allow that comment, the Goat did. Must have been a slip-up. I imagine it will be deleted soon. I had not seen that link before. :-bd

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#211

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:24 pm

The Putz didn't allow that comment, the Goat did. Must have been a slip-up. I imagine it will be deleted soon. I had not seen that link before. :-bdHow can you tell?

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#212

Post by Foggy » Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:14 pm

Holy crap, for a blog with only 5 posts in 2 years, that is AWESOME. Did we know about that already? I sure don't remember ever seeing it.
I put the 'fun' in dysfunctional.

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#213

Post by Welsh Dragon » Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:27 pm

I second that emotion!I think "Wong Kim Ark for Dummies" has been mentioned but I didn't know about the rest. That list of books is awsome!

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#214

Post by Whatever4 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:17 pm

NBC pointed it out recently. I don't think ballantine has touted it much. It's amazing.How does he do it? Volume, volume, volume.
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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#215

Post by bob » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:40 pm

NBC pointed it out recently. I don't think ballantine has touted it much. It's amazing.O RLY?





[/break1]blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7466841558189356289&postID=879708726712384637]Apuzzo responds!:


Those citations of "other authorities" do not trump Minor v. Happersett (1875), a [highlight]U.S. Supreme Court decision which said that a "natural born citizen" is a child born in the country to citizen parents[/highlight]. Minor even referred to these "other authorities" and said that they said that a "citizen" could be one who was born in the country without reference to the citizenship of the parents. Minor said there were doubts with such a proposition. In any event, Minor said that such children could be "citizens," not "natural born citizens."





[highlight]Minor's natural law and law of nations (not English common law) definition of a "natural born citizen" was recognized and confirmed in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)[/highlight], which used English common law to answer the question raised by Minor of whether a child born in the U.S. to alien parents was a "citizen." [highlight]Wong Kim Ark also recognized that children born in the U.S. to citizen parents were “natural born citizen” while children born in the U.S. to alien parents were just “citizens.”[/highlight]





The Minor/Wong Kim Ark natural law/law of nations/American common law definition of a "natural born Citizen" has never been changed and prevails to this day.Seriously! Apuzzo wrote that! And there's more:


What is amazing is how Obama supporters declare Obama a "natural born citizen" under Calvin’s Case, 77 Eng. Rep. 377 (Exchequer Chamber 1608). For them to make this quantum leap, they totally disregard over 100 years of our history, starting with just before the American revolution.





What these people fail or refuse to understand is that with the new republic, the [highlight]Founders and Framers did not look to the English common law when faced with resolving national problems[/highlight], one of which was how to define the new American citizenship. Rather, they looked to natural law and the law of nations. And their favorite authority on the matter was Emer de Vattel and his, The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)). It is at Section 212 that Vattel defined a "natural born citizen" and it is there that the Founders and Framers would have looked for a definition of the new "natural born citizen" of the Constitutional Republic. And it is there that they would have seen that under natural law and the law of nations, "citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages" ([highlight]sure sounds like the 14th Amendment[/highlight]), while the "natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens" (sure sounds like Minor v. Happersett (1875), as confirmed by U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)).Apuzzo twice cited Wong Kim Ark for the opposite what it actually said! (And threw poor ole Calvin under the bus, to boot.)
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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#216

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:42 pm

Hey, Mario. SCOTUS did not "define" NBC in Minor. And the citizenship of the mother wasn't even mentioned.





Lie much?

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#217

Post by mimi » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:32 pm

Hey, Mario. SCOTUS did not "define" NBC in Minor. And the citizenship of the mother wasn't even mentioned.





Lie much?In defense of the Putz, maybe he's just a moron?

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#218

Post by esseff44 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:03 am

Kimba was off to look at Fifth Grade Civics text books to see if any of them really said NBC requires both parents to be citizens at birth as one birther sect is now proclaiming is gospel.I was looking as well and came across this prime resource on the subject of US Citizenship that I had seen referenced in several books and law dictionaries. It was published in 1904 when WKA and the prior Chinese citizenship cases were freshly decided....and also Minor. It is a good recount of legal history of US citizenship law until publication date and the laws were pretty well set by then. Most changes since have been in the codes. It also gives a history of how citizenship was acquired as the frontier expanded and the American Empire grew by treaty, purchase and conquest. He doesn't mention Vattel. He goes into detail about how the US adopted English Common Law regarding combined blood and soil versions of NBC....all persons born in US Jurisdiction and allegiance (meaning not diplomats or hostile invaders) AND those born abroad of citizen parents (fathers must have resided in US at some time). He explains why the Fourteenth Amendment excluded all races from NBC except European and African races. He explains how a Chinese in the Territory of Hawaii could be a US Citizen but a Chinese in California could not naturalize. When the US acquired territory with Mexican inhabitants, could they become US citizens? Well, some could and some couldn't. How about the Tejanos when Texas was voted into the Union? [/break1]6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=f.+van+dyne+citizenship+of+the+united+states&fr=ytff-&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=f.+van ... sN8j.6dA--]http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=U ... sN8j.6dA--I checked Ballentine's extensive Google Books list from 2010 and didn't find it listed there. Is that list somewhere where newcomers can find it easily?

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#219

Post by verbalobe » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:21 am

That's cool esseff. I've sent the pdf to my kindle.

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#220

Post by Reality Check » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:49 am

I checked Ballentine's extensive Google Books list from 2010 and didn't find it listed there. Is that list somewhere where newcomers can find it easily?Ballantine's list: [/break1]blogspot.com/2010/10/view-of-constitution-of-united-states.html]http://naturalborncitizenshipresearch.b ... tates.htmlI added that as a link at my new blog on World Press: [/break1]wordpress.com/]http://rcradioblog.wordpress.com/
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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#221

Post by realist » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:26 pm

That's cool esseff. I've sent the pdf to my kindle.Leo quoted Van Dyne in one of his many postingslies. Of course he completely misconstruedlied about what Van Dyne stated.





I'm too lazy to look it up now, but there's discussion of it here somewhere.
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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#222

Post by esseff44 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:44 pm

Here is the link to Leo's misusing the van Dyne history review of citizenship law:[/break1]wordpress.com/2011/10/09/multiple-instances-of-historical-scholarship-conclusively-establish-the-supreme-courts-holding-in-minor-v-happersett-as-standing-precedent-on-citizenship-obama-not-eligible/]http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com ... -eligible/Ballentine challenges Leo's misreading in the Leo Donofrio thread on 10/10/11. The birfer lawyers did not go to the source, but instead were taking the bizarro readings of Leo's and adopting them as historical fact. Leo creates the fiction which is making fools out of lawyers reciting that fiction in front of judges. (I don't know how to link to those Fogbow posts, but they are easy to find with the search)Van Dyne is very clear that the common law understanding before the Civil War was that NBC -ship was at birth for the children of citizens and non-citzens alike. The Fourteenth Amendment (and the civil rights acts leading up to it) gave a constitution definition for the first time of what had been understood in common law. He also points out that when the Constitution was written, the framers considered that Asians were not a large enough of the population to be concerned about and when they became a large enough group to be concerned about, they were excluded from citizenship by naturalization. I realized after reading Van Dyne that the parents of WKA and all similarly situated Chinese could not be naturalized and if their children born here could not be NBC's at birth or could not be naturalized either, you would end up with millions of stateless inhabitants...forever classifed as such. The judges could not over rule the power of Congress to determine the naturalization laws, but they could extend the coverage of NBC-ship to their children who were born here just as it did to the children of slaves and freedmen of African ancestry.

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Expert Renunciations of the Birther NBC Definition

#223

Post by Reality Check » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:02 am

Edit: Moved from the Georgia thread:




It's a page under the topic 3.24.2 Reacquisition of Citizenship Lost by Marriage, and will make more sense if you look at the index at [/break1]uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-45104.html#0-0-0-156]http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/ ... #0-0-0-156 and also read 3.24.2, Loss of Citizenship by Marriage.Notice that in Section 3.24.2 "native- or natural- born citizenship" is used twice and "native- and natural- born citizenship" is used later. There is never any differentiation of the two in the document. I think that the use of "native- and/or natural- born" is to make sure that all cases of citizenship by birth are covered including the small subset of natural born citizens born to a US parent on foreign soil. I am getting tired of the self-appointed scholars like Leo who are Google mining every conceivable document for the last 400 years attempting to prove an invented lie.
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