Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

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realist
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Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#1

Post by realist » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:56 am

If we've read/talked about this guy, I can't remember it. I came across this article this morning.

Andy Prior:
The linguistic and logical aspects of the term “Natural Born Citizen”

Recently, I was advised by a fellow Texan, and apparently hard-core Cruz supporter, that:

“In order for your argument to have any merit at all, you must provide evidence that the authors of the Constitution intended that there be some class of persons who are born a citizen but are not natural born citizens. You could do that from their writing or from legal sources at the time, but you must prove that precise point, or you might as well be clucking like a chicken.”

[...]

I wish to invite them and all other Cruz supporters, and others, to consider that this entire discussion boils down to linguistics and logic. Fortunately, both my parents were trained in linguistics and passed some of that knowledge on to me by traipsing our family all around the world. I proceeded to add to that by taking a handful of linguistics courses while in college and studying a number of foreign languages over the years, including English.

[...]

To the best of my knowledge only ONE source has ever used this exact turn of phrase, natural-born citizen, and that was Vattel in his “Law of Nations”:
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Foggy
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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#2

Post by Foggy » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:02 am

He might as well be crowing like a roo- ... oh, wait. :?
They say that on his deathbed, Voltaire, asked to renounce the devil, said, "This is no time to be making new enemies."

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realist
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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#3

Post by realist » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:05 am

:lol:
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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#4

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:05 am

Clownish attempt to argue after deciding what the answer/result should be.

Does this moran not realize that deVattel wrote in French and that the concept of "citizen" didn't arise until after democracy came to Europe?

He's even dumber than Blovario and the Chaleria -- which takes some doing.

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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#5

Post by Foggy » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:22 am

I wonder if he knows that we actually don't just use his amateur grasp of linguistics to interpret the Constitution?

:think: :confused:
They say that on his deathbed, Voltaire, asked to renounce the devil, said, "This is no time to be making new enemies."

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#6

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:32 am

Foggy wrote:I wonder if he knows that we actually don't just use his amateur grasp of linguistics to interpret the Constitution?

:think: :confused:
But....but....but....his PARENTS....

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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#7

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:10 am

And he's also traveled the world. The more better to interpret the language of the U.S. Constitution circa 1789.

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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#8

Post by Fortinbras » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:51 pm

The phrase may have appeared in Vattel (in the English translation from the Swiss French), but Vattel was basing his interpretations (and intending his audience to be) from the European nations, which had many centuries of history with fairly non-migratory populations so that ethnicities and racial details hardly changed over the centuries and it was taken for granted that people were born and died in the very same countries (and often the very same houses) in which their great-grandfathers had been born and died. But that was not the situation with the United States in 1787, which was dealing with a population that came from several countries within the previous two centuries and was still absorbing (and seeking) immigrants from several countries.

So I strongly doubt that the Founding Fathers intended to adopt Vattel's interpretations of the laws of nationality and birthright, even though his book was of enormous value and influence on other legal questions, including diplomacy and war.

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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#9

Post by esseff44 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:27 pm

So I strongly doubt that the Founding Fathers intended to adopt Vattel's interpretations of the laws of nationality and birthright, even though his book was of enormous value and influence on other legal questions, including diplomacy and war.
IIRC, Vattel wrote of both sets of condtions for both the European nations such as France and Germany and the he wrote another section addressing British Common Law as being quite different.

I found the conversation that RC had with the French lawyer who was well-versed in French legal history to be very helpful in explaining the conditions of that era and what Vattel would have meant and who it would have influenced. It's well worth listening to.

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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#10

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:11 pm

Section 214 of Vattel's treatise dealt with the English experience. Section 212 only with the continent. So anyone who quotes section 212 and fails to discuss section214 is :yankyank: himself.

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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#11

Post by gupwalla » Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:56 pm

If Andy searched only for the exact phrase "natural-born citizen," then he entirely missed Blackstone's commentary on natural-born subjects under English common law. Which is a shame, because it's a pretty nice little read.
In a wilderness of mirrors, what will the spider do beyond the circuit of the shuddering Bear in fractured atoms? -TS Eliot (somewhat modified)

All warfare is based on deception. - Sun Tzu

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Re: Andy Prior - Constitutionalist/Vattelist Extraordinaire

#12

Post by Slartibartfast » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:19 pm

gupwalla wrote:If Andy searched only for the exact phrase "natural-born citizen," then he entirely intentionally missed Blackstone's commentary on natural-born subjects under English common law. Which is a shame, because it's a pretty nice little read.
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