Hawaii Has a History of Birth Certificate Fraud? (No)

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BuckarooSamurai
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Hawaii Has a History of Birth Certificate Fraud? (No)

#1

Post by BuckarooSamurai » Wed May 29, 2013 11:38 pm

[/break1]com/obama-birthplace-controversy/2012/06/hawaii-has-a-history-of-birth-certificate-fraud-the-sun-yat-sen-and-obama-connection-video-and-fact-check-2274297.html]http://beforeitsnews.com/obama-birthpla ... 74297.htmlThis was a new one I had run across in arguing with a co-worker who is being convinced by a Public Speaking teacher all kinds of wacky things: Global Climate Change is a myth, obama's certificate is a fake etc. etc.Took me a while to find a site claiming this and when I did the evidence was barely that. The claim being birth certificate forgery is rampant in Hawaii but the only source of evidence is a fake one made at the turn of the century. Not exactly a time where it was difficult to forge documents. Even if this is true it is one case, and I'm sure one could find cases of forgeries in any state regarding birth certificates.What do you guys think-Justin Couron



BuckarooSamurai
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Hawaii Has a History of Birth Certificate Fraud? (No)

#2

Post by BuckarooSamurai » Thu May 30, 2013 12:09 am

This was a new one I heard being parroted by a co-worker who learned it from a Public Speaking teacher (for some reason this discipline seems to be a bastion of conspiracy theory nuts see Sandy Hook conspiracy mongers). It basically puts forth an single incident at the turn of the 20th century about 1905 wherein a chinese man had a certificate forged. How this somehow implies forgery is rampant in Hawaii I do not know. Take a look.[/break1]com/obama-birthplace-controversy/2012/06/hawaii-has-a-history-of-birth-certificate-fraud-the-sun-yat-sen-and-obama-connection-video-and-fact-check-2274297.html]http://beforeitsnews.com/obama-birthpla ... 74297.htmlIts pretty weak evidence at that. I would like to know what state it is actually easiest to get a forged certificate. -BuckarooSamurai



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Foggy
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Hawaii Has a History of Birth Certificate Fraud? (No)

#3

Post by Foggy » Thu May 30, 2013 6:04 am

Yes, we've seen that long ago, Justin, and you're right, wherever that Sun Yat Sen birth cert. came from, it's no proof that Hawaii forged birth certificates on a regular basis. Birthers have also made the claim that there was a virtual industry of selling fake birth certificates in Hawaii. But, they've offered no evidence at all to support that except that one for Sun Yat Sen.Welcome to Fogbow. I merged your two threads after approving them (that's why there are two posts in a row).


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everalm
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Hawaii Has a History of Birth Certificate Fraud? (No)

#4

Post by everalm » Thu May 30, 2013 6:16 am

Buckaroo,The Sun Yat-Sen BC is the only extant and available example of a forged Hawai'in BC, this is not to say that there have never been any other forgeries but the absence of any other exemplars kills the whole "rampant" BS.In addition, how does your friend explain away the minor problem that the Constitutionally sufficient custodian of records have on multiple occassions stated that the records from which the BC is derived AND the BC's themselves are whole, sufficient and accurate.It is the same as your friend pointing at a specific $20 dollar bill and screaming that it is a forgery after both the Secret Service and the Secretary of the Treasury have both stated formally and on the record that said bill is not forged and is legal tender.



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Hawaii Has a History of Birth Certificate Fraud? (No)

#5

Post by Foggy » Thu May 30, 2013 6:29 am

We have copies of two press releases by the Hawaii Dept. of Health saying President Obama's birth cert. is legit, and a couple of "verifications" which are also certified statements that the Hawaii birth certificate contains accurate information. We can get you those if you need 'em. :hug:


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mimi
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Hawaii Has a History of Birth Certificate Fraud? (No)

#6

Post by mimi » Thu May 30, 2013 7:57 am

That birth certificate was issued in 1904, long before Hawaii became a state. It looks like he faked his birth and got two witnesses to lie for him. According to the article: No Such Sun Yat-sen: An Archival Success Story By Neil L. Thomsen, Sun Yat-Sen claimed to be a native Hawaiian so that he would not be identified as a man with a price on his head:Sun Yat Sen is widely known as the “founding father” of the Republic of China, which brought to an end thousands of years of dynastic rule in the largest country on earth. However, few know that Sun Yat Sen was also someone who claimed to be a “native born Hawaiian.” His case file includes the handwritten, sworn and signed testimony of both a Hawaiian farmer and that of Sun Yat Sen himself, regarding his birth and early childhood on the island of Oahu. Later, immigration officials find out that his true identity is that of a famous Chinese revolutionary in search of refuge and support for his cause in America.[/break1]obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/hawaiian-birth-certificate-its-a-fake/]http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/ ... ts-a-fake/Birthers were saying that Obama prolly had witnesses lie and say he was born at home, when he was really born in Kenya.But later, when the long form was released, the name of the hospital and attending physician were named. You'd think they'd give this one up? Nope. :roll:



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Hawaii Has a History of Birth Certificate Fraud? (No)

#7

Post by Sequoia32 » Thu May 30, 2013 11:12 am

I think our BB's take on this is the best (she has a better way with words but here's the gist): If it is so easy to get a Hawaiian BC (forged or otherwise) why are there any undocumented immigrants in the US?As in, why pay a coyote thousands of dollars for a dangerous and arduous trek across the desert just to be an illegal immigrant when a few hundred dollars gets you a nice Hawaiian vacation and US citizenship?


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Hawaii Has a History of Birth Certificate Fraud? (No)

#8

Post by A Legal Lohengrin » Thu May 30, 2013 12:44 pm

This is the problem when conspiracy theorists go hunting for something, anything that supports their delusion. Of course, if you go looking for forged documents, there will be cases where someone committed forgery in the past. The argument is basically "someone once forged a document, therefore any document I don't like is a forgery."





Sun Yat-sen, first President of the Republic of China (Taiwan), had good cause to forge a birth certificate and obtain a U.S. passport. Basically, he was a man with a price on his head. Apparently, his grandparents forged the signatures of his parents in order to obtain the birth certificate fraudulently. It is also a known historical fact that he was actually born in [/break1]yatsen.gov.tw/en/content.php?sort=102&PHPSESSID=e60a270bf7b7b1c089738fd05e99953b]"Tsuiheng Village, Hsiang-shan County, Guangdong."





By comparison, in the case of Obama, there is no conceivable reason a heavily pregnant mother of limited means would suddenly fly to Kenya to give birth there, traveling over rough land without highways to the other side of the country from the only international airport, while setting up an elaborate conspiracy to forge birth certificates, plant bogus newspaper notices, and then immediately fly back after traversing the same countryside.





Additionally, when Sun Yat-sen's identity became known, the birth certificate fraud fell apart quickly. He apparently adopted it at least in part to evade the [/break1]wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen#Heaven_and_earth_society.2C_overseas_travel]Chinese Exclusion Act, incidentally, also the law at the center of the [/break1]wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Kim_Ark]Wong Kim Ark case which defined birth in the United States as an important source of birthright citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment (and previously existing common law).





By the time the Sun Yat-sen fraud was uncovered, he was an important ally and there was pretty much no effort of which I am aware to prosecute him (or his grandparents) for it, even though it would have doubtless been a crime.



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