Mormonism: A Discussion

User avatar
kate520
Posts: 17019
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:02 pm
Location: Dark side of the Moon
Occupation: servant of cats, chicken wrangler
Contact:

Mormonism: A Discussion

#1

Post by kate520 »

Butterfly Bilderberg, aka She Who Must Be Obeyed Because Love Her, requested we move this discussion to a separate thread. Your wish, BB, etc.

I'm fascinated with everything I've learned about Mormonism, not particularly in a good way. I've known Mormons. I've liked and admired them. Our best man's daughter married a Mormon, but her parents, our friends, weren't allowed to attend the wedding, leading to a decades-long estrangement.

I want to further understand why I have such antipathy toward the religion that molded the fine people I've known yet is so secretive about its tenets that it won't let outsiders in even for a wedding.

I don't know if we want to move posts over from Bundy Gossip? In any case, I can't do it on my iPad. I've screwed it up every time I've tried. :oops: :mrgreen:


DEFEND DEMOCRACY
User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 20731
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#2

Post by TollandRCR »

You beat me to it. I opened and closed a topic in the Religion area.

Mormonism has been described as the only truly American form of Christianity, with all others having roots in Europe. Joseph Smith has been described as a religious genius because he invented an optimistic religion: every man can become a god with his own world if he simply follows the Mormon rules. This was a sharp contrast to Calvinist pessimism.

The antipathy towards Mormons predates the Principle of polygamy but was greatly increased by that. Orson Scott Card has a novel, Saints, in which he explores the creation of Mormonism and the declaration of the Principle. Smith's wife is presented as an opponent of the Principle.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut
User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 20731
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#3

Post by TollandRCR »

An interesting discussion among LDS Mormons about whether a convicted sex offender should be allowed back in the stake or in the seminary. This came up in a search for Al Hinds but may not be him.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut
User avatar
DejaMoo
Posts: 6026
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:19 pm
Occupation: Agent of ZOG

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#4

Post by DejaMoo »

TollandRCR wrote:An interesting discussion among LDS Mormons about whether a convicted sex offender should be allowed back in the stake or in the seminary. This came up in a search for Al Hinds but may not be him.
Sex offenses are one of the grounds for excommunication in the LDS. Along with putting the church in a bad light, which is what they could use to excommunicate the Bundys, if they were so inclined.

I dated an ex-Mormon many years ago. He told me he had been excommunicated. Since he was a believer in all kinds of weird things, including divining with runestones, I simply assumed that was why he'd been 86'd from the faith.
On our first date, he took me to a cemetery and showed me his son's tombstone. I thought that was a bit odd, too, but hey, grief.

It was a brief and ultimately threatening relationship (he stars in one of my two Dates from Hell stories), but after it ended and he stalked/threatened me, he eventually retired, moved, and died (yay). I found that out doing a Google search. I found out during the same search that his son was not actually dead, and that he was a convicted sex offender. Further checking disclosed that his victim was a family member.

I'm now thinking that his dad was most likely excommunicated for knowing about the abuse and allowing it to happen. That would explain even more than the excommunication why his entire family shunned him. I'm guessing the tombstone for the sex offender son was another statement by the family. But of course, this guy I dated didn't disclose any of this to me, and back then I never dreamed of asking my dates if they had a criminal history.

Dodged a bullet with that one (thisclose to literally - the Date from Hell story).


I've heard this bull before.
User avatar
Suranis
Posts: 19044
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:04 am

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#5

Post by Suranis »

Mormonism shows up in the first Sherlock Holmes story, where the practice of kicking men out to ensure lots of wives for the higher ups was talked about. Which means that these things were known as far away as England in the 19th century, so they must have been pretty blatant at the time.


The difference between the Middle Ages, and the Age of the Internet, is that in the Middle Ages no-one thought the Earth was flat.
rifleman1635
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:09 am

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#6

Post by rifleman1635 »

Here's a really good resource which discuss the many flaws of Mormonism:
http://exmormon.org/

They have a really good Primer for those thinking of joining "Mormonism":
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm


User avatar
Dr. Caligari
Posts: 1217
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:22 pm

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#7

Post by Dr. Caligari »

Anti-Mormonism was a not-uncommon theme in popular literature of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Zane Grey's novel The Riders of the Purple Sage (1913)-- one of the founding works of the American Western genre-- has a plot involving Mormon elders forcing wealthy women to marry them so they can steal their land.


J.D., Miskatonic University School of Law
User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 18305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: The nuttiest congressional district of a nut job state.

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#8

Post by ZekeB »

I was going to start cutting and pasting, but here is a place to start. It seems that even among the mainstream Church there are those who pick and choose what they want. I didn't see where this included the polygamy cults that claim to be of Mormon origin.


Trump: Er hat eine größere Ente als ich.

Putin: Du bist kleiner als ich.
User avatar
Gnarly Goat
Posts: 2023
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:19 pm

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#9

Post by Gnarly Goat »

Suranis wrote:Mormonism shows up in the first Sherlock Holmes story, where the practice of kicking men out to ensure lots of wives for the higher ups was talked about. Which means that these things were known as far away as England in the 19th century, so they must have been pretty blatant at the time.
The LDS Church sent their first missionaries to England in 1837; this was the first overseas mission after Canada. They found relatively fertile ground there, and many English converts emigrated to Nauvoo and later make the trek to Salt Lake.


"Don't waste time mourning. Organize." - Joe Hill
User avatar
Gnarly Goat
Posts: 2023
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:19 pm

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#10

Post by Gnarly Goat »

kate520 wrote:Butterfly Bilderberg, aka She Who Must Be Obeyed Because Love Her, requested we move this discussion to a separate thread. Your wish, BB, etc.

I'm fascinated with everything I've learned about Mormonism, not particularly in a good way. I've known Mormons. I've liked and admired them. Our best man's daughter married a Mormon, but her parents, our friends, weren't allowed to attend the wedding, leading to a decades-long estrangement.

I want to further understand why I have such antipathy toward the religion that molded the fine people I've known yet is so secretive about its tenets that it won't let outsiders in even for a wedding.

I don't know if we want to move posts over from Bundy Gossip? In any case, I can't do it on my iPad. I've screwed it up every time I've tried. :oops: :mrgreen:
I would strongly recommend No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn Brodie. While this is an older book, she presents a very engaging and accessible history of the founding of the LDS movement and the evolution of Mormon theology.


"Don't waste time mourning. Organize." - Joe Hill
User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 18305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: The nuttiest congressional district of a nut job state.

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#11

Post by ZekeB »

http://exmormon.org/ is another place to look. You'll find stories from the apostates, but little additional information as the how the Bundy types think.


Trump: Er hat eine größere Ente als ich.

Putin: Du bist kleiner als ich.
User avatar
Gnarly Goat
Posts: 2023
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:19 pm

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#12

Post by Gnarly Goat »

TollandRCR wrote:Mormonism has been described as the only truly American form of Christianity, with all others having roots in Europe. Joseph Smith has been described as a religious genius because he invented an optimistic religion: every man can become a god with his own world if he simply follows the Mormon rules. This was a sharp contrast to Calvinist pessimism.
I don't believe Mormonism could have been created or thrived anywhere other than America.

The "burned over" district of western New York towards the end of the Second Great Awakening was the perfect location and time for Smith to unveil his new religion. Once he launched it, Smith constantly refined it as he moved the church steadily westward deeper into the frontier until he perfected it.


"Don't waste time mourning. Organize." - Joe Hill
User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 18305
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: The nuttiest congressional district of a nut job state.

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#13

Post by ZekeB »

Gnarly Goat wrote:The "burned over" district of western New York towards the end of the Second Great Awakening was the perfect location and time for Smith to unveil his new religion. Once he launched it, Smith constantly refined it as he moved the church steadily westward deeper into the frontier until he perfected it.
Without any training in psychology, Smith had a sense of how to manipulate the mind. If you look at the laws he set up this becomes very apparent. Study the laws of the Church and their voodoo ceremonies and you'll see this right away - unless you've been brainwashed or raised as a TBM.


Trump: Er hat eine größere Ente als ich.

Putin: Du bist kleiner als ich.
boots
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 5:23 pm

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#14

Post by boots »

kate520 wrote:Butterfly Bilderberg, aka She Who Must Be Obeyed Because Love Her, requested we move this discussion to a separate thread. Your wish, BB, etc.

I'm fascinated with everything I've learned about Mormonism, not particularly in a good way. I've known Mormons. I've liked and admired them. Our best man's daughter married a Mormon, but her parents, our friends, weren't allowed to attend the wedding, leading to a decades-long estrangement.

I want to further understand why I have such antipathy toward the religion that molded the fine people I've known yet is so secretive about its tenets that it won't let outsiders in even for a wedding.

I don't know if we want to move posts over from Bundy Gossip? In any case, I can't do it on my iPad. I've screwed it up every time I've tried. :oops: :mrgreen:
I can relate to the sort of cognitive dissonance you mention here. I have known a lot of really solid people who were Mormons. A lot of things they do, saving up food, supporting their poor, etc., seem to have some merit. But then the sister wives and sex abuse scandals and historic racism and all get factored in, which added to their secrecy and a set of beliefs they have which I don't truly understand, and I am left wondering why anyone would want to be a Mormon.


User avatar
SLQ
Posts: 4440
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:33 am

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#15

Post by SLQ »

I agree with Kate. I, too, had many Mormon friends growing up. They are wonderful people. However, even in high school, when those Mormon friends were trying to convert me, I had serious concerns about the theology. Mostly, my reaction was "how can you believe that?!" (I don't know why Joseph Smith's fairy tales seem less believable than those in the Bible, but I was raised Methodist, so the Bible fairy tales were acceptable to me.)

Disclaimer: Unbeknownst to me until I was in my 30s, my great-great-great (great?) grandfather was one of the origial quorum of 12. He owned considerable property in Nauvoo and the surrounding area. He purportedly smuggled the gun into the Carthage jail to Joseph Smith in an attempt to break him out of jail after Smith was arrested for horse thievery. My great-great-great (great?) aunt and other ancestors were part of the hand-cart trek from Nauvoo to Utah, and I have a handwritten account of the severe hardship of that trek. The great-aunt ended up being one of Joseph Smith's celestial wives. My great-uncle had 3 wives, and I am descended from wife #2. Homesteading three properties in rural Utah ended up being too much of a hardship, and he abandoned two of the wives, who then banded together to homestead and raise their children. (I believe this, in addition to the demands of the federal government for statehood, was the reason plural marriage became disfavored. It was workable in contained Nauvoo, but not in the great expanse of Utah.) My grandfather left Utah and the Mormon religion at age 14 when he ran away due to abuse. My father grew up hating Mormons.

About 10 years ago, I had a conversation with one of my Mormon friends from high school, when I found out all of the above. She did not know (and did not believe) that Joseph Smith had 29 wives. The church did not teach that part of the history. She later conceded that this was true, but said it was only because he wanted to take care of the women.


"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda
User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 20731
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#16

Post by TollandRCR »

Gnarly Goat wrote:
TollandRCR wrote:Mormonism has been described as the only truly American form of Christianity, with all others having roots in Europe. Joseph Smith has been described as a religious genius because he invented an optimistic religion: every man can become a god with his own world if he simply follows the Mormon rules. This was a sharp contrast to Calvinist pessimism.
I don't believe Mormonism could have been created or thrived anywhere other than America.

The "burned over" district of western New York towards the end of the Second Great Awakening was the perfect location and time for Smith to unveil his new religion. Once he launched it, Smith constantly refined it as he moved the church steadily westward deeper into the frontier until he perfected it.
Mormonism was a part of a widespread American movement to "restore" the church to its New Testament form and beliefs. Smith and Mormonism are not mentioned in the Campbell-Stone oriented histories of the Restoration Movement, but a Google search on Restoration Movement Joseph Smith will turn up numerous references. There is a source that covers both Campbell-Stone and Smith, The 1800s Restoration Movement. There was at least a bit of exchange of members between the two forces.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut
User avatar
Suranis
Posts: 19044
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:04 am

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#17

Post by Suranis »

This is a bit by the almighty American Athiests about Morminisms ties to the mitia movement.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/moretext/mm.htm


The difference between the Middle Ages, and the Age of the Internet, is that in the Middle Ages no-one thought the Earth was flat.
User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 20731
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#18

Post by TollandRCR »

Suranis wrote:This is a bit by the almighty American Athiests about Morminisms ties to the mitia movement.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/moretext/mm.htm
I had suspected that the ties between Mormonism and militias were frequent and strong. That appears to be true in the American West at least.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut
User avatar
Slarti the White
Posts: 7069
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:52 pm

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#19

Post by Slarti the White »

SLQ wrote:I agree with Kate. I, too, had many Mormon friends growing up. They are wonderful people. However, even in high school, when those Mormon friends were trying to convert me, I had serious concerns about the theology. Mostly, my reaction was "how can you believe that?!" (I don't know why Joseph Smith's fairy tales seem less believable than those in the Bible, but I was raised Methodist, so the Bible fairy tales were acceptable to me.)

Disclaimer: Unbeknownst to me until I was in my 30s, my great-great-great (great?) grandfather was one of the origial quorum of 12. He owned considerable property in Nauvoo and the surrounding area. He purportedly smuggled the gun into the Carthage jail to Joseph Smith in an attempt to break him out of jail after Smith was arrested for horse thievery. My great-great-great (great?) aunt and other ancestors were part of the hand-cart trek from Nauvoo to Utah, and I have a handwritten account of the severe hardship of that trek. The great-aunt ended up being one of Joseph Smith's celestial wives. My great-uncle had 3 wives, and I am descended from wife #2. Homesteading three properties in rural Utah ended up being too much of a hardship, and he abandoned two of the wives, who then banded together to homestead and raise their children. (I believe this, in addition to the demands of the federal government for statehood, was the reason plural marriage became disfavored. It was workable in contained Nauvoo, but not in the great expanse of Utah.) My grandfather left Utah and the Mormon religion at age 14 when he ran away due to abuse. My father grew up hating Mormons.

About 10 years ago, I had a conversation with one of my Mormon friends from high school, when I found out all of the above. She did not know (and did not believe) that Joseph Smith had 29 wives. The church did not teach that part of the history. She later conceded that this was true, but said it was only because he wanted to take care of the women.
Genealogy flag on the play!

You are not descended from your great uncle (or any of his wives) unless he holds another spot on your family tree too. also. In which case he (and his #2 wife) would have to be your other set of grandparents as well as being a sibling of one of your other two grandparents. Which I don't think is what you meant. You probably meant that you were related to this uncle through his #2 wife (making him your great uncle by marriage). Could you please clarify?

Thanks.


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)
User avatar
SLQ
Posts: 4440
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:33 am

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#20

Post by SLQ »

Slartibartfast wrote:
SLQ wrote: The great-aunt ended up being one of Joseph Smith's celestial wives. My great-uncle had 3 wives, and I am descended from wife #2
Genealogy flag on the play!

You are not descended from your great uncle (or any of his wives) unless he holds another spot on your family tree too. also. In which case he (and his #2 wife) would have to be your other set of grandparents as well as being a sibling of one of your other two grandparents. Which I don't think is what you meant. You probably meant that you were related to this uncle through his #2 wife (making him your great uncle by marriage). Could you please clarify?

Thanks.
Good catch. That was a misstatement on my part, but not in the way you describe. I should have said great-grandfather. My great aunt was one of Joseph Smith's wives, but they had no children. (Joseph Smith would be my great-great etc. uncle by marriage.) Her brother was my great-great etc. grandfather, who had 3 wives, of which I am descended from wife #2.


"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda
User avatar
Slarti the White
Posts: 7069
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:52 pm

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#21

Post by Slarti the White »

Thank you for both the precision and the accuracy! :thumbs:


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)
User avatar
PatGund
Posts: 7809
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: Everett. WA
Occupation: Middle Aged College Student

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#22

Post by PatGund »

I confess to very mixed feelings about the LDS church.

On one hand, some of my best and more cherished friends are LDS. I had a batch of LDS friends in my college gaming groups and in the old BBS days. In one of the fan clubs I belong to, a friend there is LDS, and is one the nicest and most wickedly fun people I know.

I've toured three temples before they were consecrated, and my theology library has a Book of Mormon a dear lady friend of mine gave me.

HOWEVER.

When I was in Boy Scouts, I was the only non-Mormon in an LDS-chartered troop. Despite meeting the requirements, earning a batch of merit badges, and TEACHING some of the younger kids, I never went past First Class Scout. When I asked the Scoutmaster, he said he didn't want to promote me unless I and my family converted to the LDS church.

I left instead. Ended up in the Cadet Civil Air Patrol programme.

This actually got brought back to me last weekend. One of the local Boy Scout councils was organizing a Jamboree, and the local Girl Scout Council actually ended up a co-sponsor. While Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are two totally different groups with different approaches to tolerance and acceptance, I thought it would be fun to bring my daughter (who is now a Senior in Girl Scouts) and allow her to experience the fun I had at camping trips and Jamborees.

We did. I also noticed that when I got the leader registration package, it devoted about 91 words total to religious services for various denominations on Sunday. (They had a non-denominational Christian service, an Orthodox service, and a Buddhist service). Almost no other promotion at all.

LDS services?? Over three hundred words AND a separate flyer in the package, along with biographical information about the person doing it, when on Saturday it was being held, etc., etc.

The LDS church uses Boy Scouts as their de-facto Boys's leadership training programme. (the girls usually have their own separate in-house programme). And they continue to show an undue amount of influence on Boy Scouts. The take away I got in those Jamboree materials is that the discrimination I experienced in the 70's is alive and well today.


User avatar
Mockingbird
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: Central Oklahoma

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#23

Post by Mockingbird »

I find it disturbing how the Mormon-inspired and -affiliated "patriots" are now co-opting a Native American cause and protest movement.


User avatar
kate520
Posts: 17019
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:02 pm
Location: Dark side of the Moon
Occupation: servant of cats, chicken wrangler
Contact:

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#24

Post by kate520 »

This is just a fascinating topic. I'm going to read Krakauer's book tonight.

Mormonism has far more to do with the Malhuer caper than most are aware, seems to me. Anti-government roots going way back, messianic dreams (We Are All Gods Among Men!), mixed with a bit of paranoia also going way back. Polygamy was a good deal for everyone, probably, back when most of America was unexplored frontier. Life was hard. Many hands make light work. I have no objections, either, to consenting adults today making any living arrangements that work for them. But the cults of Jeffs and his ilk are abusive in the extreme. I doubt there is any choice - about everything from what's for dinner to what to wear today to whom shall I marry - for all but the most senior men. I've heard tales, all third hand, of abuse in regular Mormon families, too - harsh punishments, shunning for minor offenses, lots of shaming.

Do contemporary accounts of Mormonism's beginnings sound anything like today's criticisms of Scientology? I don't see that L. Ron Hubbard's belief system is any weirder than Joseph Smith's. :?


DEFEND DEMOCRACY
User avatar
Azastan
Posts: 4777
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:42 am

Re: Mormonism: A Discussion

#25

Post by Azastan »

kate520 wrote: Polygamy was a good deal for everyone, probably, back when most of America was unexplored frontier. Life was hard. Many hands make light work. I have no objections, either, to consenting adults today making any living arrangements that work for them.
Having read many accounts, the women were almost all totally against polygamy. It was not by any means a 'consenting adult' situation. The women were almost all coerced into it.

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/31/inside_ ... mon_woman/


Post Reply

Return to “Religion”