From 7th Day Adventist to Christian to Atheist--a well-said testimony

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Plutodog
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From 7th Day Adventist to Christian to Atheist--a well-said testimony

#1

Post by Plutodog » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:58 pm

Edit to add: (I tried to keep the title short so it would show up well but that's not possible I guess, so I lengthened it.)



Note, I came up with the SDA's.








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From 7th Day Adventist to Christian to Atheist--a well-said testimony

#2

Post by L00Kit » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:58 pm

Am watching this now. Pluto, is this video telling your story or someone else's? Whomever's story this is, I am so terribly sorry for the loss of their mother at such a tender age. It's just beyond heartbreaking.



Will post again at end of video.



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#3

Post by Plutodog » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:39 pm

No, not me. Just of my previous faith.


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#4

Post by kubu island » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:20 pm

Thanks for that Pluto. I liked that the guy did this through reasoning only.



You owe me about 7 hours of sleep : you posted the other day a link to the Atheist Experience videos, and I watched that until 6 in the morning. Was absolutely great and mucho info to gather there. In one of them, one of the ladies talks about 4 fundamental traits (fairness, empathy and two others I forget) that, if I understood correctly, do not need a social structure in order to appear (sorry, English is not my first language, so pls excuse the word salad) in humans, bonobos and chimps.



This seems to contradict what your video says about new born babies. I'll try to find that specific video.



What is your take on this. I reiterate I may have completely misunderstood her point.



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#5

Post by Plutodog » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:24 pm

Newborn humans don't learn they're not the only for a few years as I understand it...and some even later. And I gather animals grow up in that way sooner. I think they may also have better role models in that regard, I'm not sure. I do know that the only requirement to be an atheist is to not have a belief in supernatural beings, though so depending on who's talking, their own experience, education, thoughts, politics, etc., are going to vary. But the whole gist of the thing, to me, is that the query from theists about how we get morals, can be expected not to go around raping and murdering everybody if we don't have a belief in a deity. That makes no sense to me, either. People learn through life and parents the Golden Rule, whether or not they've learned to articulate it as such...and of course, that's the "stick" side (if you do it to others, they WILL do it to you), while the carrot side is that when you get to know your family, your neighbors, you learn sympathy, empathy, etc. And beyond the family, social relationships, societies learn that letting people go around and commit violence, dishonesty is bad for society, whether you're in a kingdom, a democracy, a republic, etc. And they set up rules that most people abide by, and those what don't get hauled up short, seized by the short hairs, flogged, imprisoned, fined or otherwise punished. And given that theists can also go badly astray of the law, I'm not so sure the God stick is going to be real effective in most cases either. People will either act rationally on the whole or they won't.



Yeah, I like setting something like the Atheist Experience playlists or other things on the computer and going to sleep (eventually) to it. Generally, they quit after a few hours for some reason, but being a bit of a night owl (understatement), that does help me get to sleep. And I go back and listen again to anything I slept through. Debates and other stuff works too.


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From 7th Day Adventist to Christian to Atheist--a well-said testimony

#6

Post by L00Kit » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:59 pm

I’m much more familiar with Mormon history and doctrine than with Seventh Day Adventism (SDA), but the similarities are striking:

Good, honest, moral and intelligent people with absolutely sincere religious belief who pull at one loose thread in a 19th-century prophet's doctrine. Then, with each new discovery of untruth, they are eventually forced to accept they’ve been lied to from the very beginning by a church and a promise they invested their entire lives in...and the whole fragile house of belief falls apart. The grief from losing one’s lifelong foundational world view is genuine and profound.



He recounts his journey thusly:

He desperately tries to prove wrong all debunkers of Seventh Day Adventism, then discovers the verbatim plagiarism and constant stream of failed prophecies by its one true prophet of God, Ellen G. White.



Out of SDA, he now tries to find Jesus but instead finds Horus, Mithra and dozens of other gods with creation stories identical to that of Jesus. He finds zero attestations of Jesus’ miracles outside of Christianity, which is weird. You’d think the whole world would have been all over this story and that Bill O’Reilly would have been there live on the scene to report it.



Realizing that Jesus is a compilation of various myths, legends and fervent wishes for other people’s claims about Jesus’ supernatural powers to be true, this man now tries to find a god...any god.



He finds no evidence of a supernatural guy in the sky giving us the stink-eye when we fail. Now he explores morals and where they come from.



Of the many stories including my own about loss/lack of belief in the supernatural, the top reasons for losing one’s religion seem to boil down to these:

Unanswered prayer.

Unjust suffering.

Unfulfilled promises.

Unpossible claims.



No mind-boggling science in this story because it's simply not necessary; nobody accepts or rejects religion based on the Second Law of Thermodynamics regardless of the prattling derpfests falling out of Frank Turek and William Lane Boring Craig's pie-holes.



This video is the most thoughtful, thorough and plain-spoken story of a journey from belief to unbelief I’ve heard thus far. Have added this to my library on religion for future reference.



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#7

Post by Suranis » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:28 pm

Horus, Mithra and dozens of other gods with creation stories identical to that of Jesus.



And that's some of the damage Zietgiest has done. Horus and Mithras do not have creation myths anything like Jesus, unless you call being born from a rock (Mithras), and being conceived by Isis after she dragged together the 13 dismembered parts of her husband Osiris (apart from his penis which she replaced with a golden dildo) (Horus), as being the same as being born from a Virgin on the line of David.



He finds zero attestations of Jesus’ miracles outside of Christianity, which is weird.







Jesus is mentioned in the historians Tacitus and Johasivus and the adherents of Zietgiest start screaming when you mention that. Its not exactly weird that they dont mention Jesus's miracles, as for example Tacitus was a devout Pagan and he was still forced to mention that Jewish Carpenter, but by golly he wasn't going to mention anything divine about him. Besides, its not like he could look it up on youtube.

Basicly with total lies that are all over the internet, Zietgiest has actually created a giant block in peoples spiritual journey, as they are forced on a track that leads to overall conclusions that are not based on the actual truth.

Anyway...


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#8

Post by Plutodog » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:13 pm

There actually was a world of Atheism, skeptics freethinkers before Zeitgeist. And I'm sure you're aware of the timeframe of Tacitus and Josephus writing (not eye witnesses, to say the least). But raising people from the dead didn't get a rise out of nobody outside the JC traveling band?


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#9

Post by Suranis » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:44 pm

Sure, it was reported in the local Newspaper. Oh sorry, those didn't exist. In fact most people could not read or write. The educated Romans who could heard someone talking about it and thought they were nuts or ignored it as the usual nattering of the wogs. Pilate had never heard of Jesus prior to him being dragged in front of him.

And I'm sure you were aware of the cult of Christianity that was in Jeruselem around the time of Jesus who would have actually known whether the person existed or not as they would have walked around with the guy. Not to mention everyone in Jerusalem who would have been telling everyone that none of this shit ever happened and that the guy didn't exist as 60AD was within living memory of the actual events. Oh wait.

But a movie comes out 1980 years later that lied about other Religions in the area at the time and suddenly this proves that Jesus did not exist. Makes sense.

And yes I know all about the other atheists throughout history. I studied them when I did my degree in philosophy trhat was paid for by the Catholic Church. And every one of those Atheists would have told you that just because you don't believe the guy is the son of God does not mean you shouldn't believe that there was actually a guy called Yeshua who walked around Judea at the time, especially for reasons of a movie that gets everything else wrong about the religions of the time. To do so is arrogant and insulting to the people who recorded it all.

And I'm sure you know about the other gospels that we have in part. I'm sure they were all about some guy that Never existed!

Hey, Muhummed never existed becasue we dont have any record of the Miracles of Muhumed outside Islamic sources... and how about those Miracles of Buddha you have never heard of. I guess that means those guys never walked the earth, huh?

Tacitus wrote sneeringly about Jesus as he was satisfied the guy actually walked the earth. I'm sure he knew the limitations of his own time and the value of the evidence of such far better than you do.


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#10

Post by Suranis » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:00 pm

Just because you don't think he was the son of God does not mean he didn't exist.



And since we are on the subject of old atheists, I'm sure you are proud of those Atheist Historians who literally altered history from Columbus being an idiot who stumbled into America by sheer accident as he thought everyone else was wrong about the sise of the Earth to a glorious voyage against the stupid church who insisted the earth was flat and who proved the world was round, and that the people in the old days were stupid. I'm sure those guys were really into the total truth.



In fact people know the earth was a Sphere since 300 BC. But fuck that lets just lie about that and make churchmen seem reactionary and stupid and against science because ATHIESM IS GREAT AND TRUE!!



Galileo, the guy who contemporary scientists were pissed off at and who'se calculations were WRONG and did not actually predict the course of the planets very well? Fuck that, lets turn him into a poster buy for atheism arguing rationality in front of a stupid reactionary church! Lets brush aside when he insisted that comets were Clouds even when a Jesuit proved mathamaticly that they had an orbit beyond the moon! And that the clerics he faced in the Inquisition were actually Mathematicians

Copernicus! Except that the book was only put on the dangerous list 60 years AFTER it was written, and they waited till the 3rd edition was released. And they still allowed the calculations in the book to be used and described it as first class science.

Lets ignore Kepler, who was a believing Christian and who actually got the calculations RIGHT by proving the planets orbits were an ellipse. He was just stupid!

But hey, a movie said that Christianity was just Mithrasism and everyone just jumps on that bandwagon without a second of questioning or research and which the actual experts on the subject call bullshit, and that proves athiests are, like, intelligent!

Works for me.

And yeah you ahve pissed me off. All I wanted to do was point out the inacuraccies in what was said and suddenly I have to defend all of Christianity stupidity for believing the truth or something.


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#11

Post by Plutodog » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:00 pm

We're talking faith, Suranis and I'm not here with the intention to insult you or yours. But as to the historicity of Jesus, the reality of a deity, let alone one who even shivs a git about any of us. Here's what I believe about the lack of solid evidence for either/all. Whatever the reason, we don't even know for sure there was a Jesus, a Moses, etc., etc., etc. I've never seen Zeitgeist so I don't know why that's so important to you. I don't give it any weight, obviously. But I do believe any God worth his salt would be able to provide a demonstrable proof that He is and Jesus was/is. There'd be miracles for our age, not just for those thousands of years ago. I was brought up religious with church and church school, our Christian version of Boy Scouts, Bible study, etc. I was a believer through and through just as Mike was. I no longer am. You're free to believe what you learned, what you believe, but it's of no evidentiary value to me. By the way, did you watch the movie? Is that where you think Zeitgeist was relied on or what?


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#12

Post by Plutodog » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:07 pm

There's plenty of smart, even brilliant Christians, Suranis...including scientists. The really good ones are wise enough to separate their faith from their science, IMO. I think we all have gone through this journey, this living thing and we all do the best we can to make heads or tails of it. It doesn't mean everybody on either side is dumb, just fallible, human, with different perceptions. And in the end, if you're right, you'll be in Heaven whilst I'll be burnt to a crisp for an infinite amount of time for my finite sins. You'll be on the winning team. What have you got to fight me over? Maybe this thread isn't your cup of tea. I hope you'll find one that works for you. I'm sorry. I don't believe as you do and that is not a personal insult...or meant to be. I hope you can calm down and have a good day.


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#13

Post by Suranis » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:09 pm

There'd be miracles for our age,







Ever hear of the Miracle of Fatima? Or the cures in Lourdes?

Yeah. its not a sign or a miracle unless you agree it is.



And somehow people do seem to believe prayers are answered. I guess everyone else is just stupid. And why should God "prove" he existed to you? Jesus was asked that very thing and he said the world was full of signs. Every breath you take is a sign from god that he exists. The signs from God are so commonplace we don't see them.

The reason Zeitgiest "is so important" is that Lookit directly quoted the ideas from it as "proof" that Jesus never existed. Which is nuts if you think about it for half a second. If people wanted to go with a mucked up Mithrasism at the time they would have just joined the real thing. Its was still a very big thing in the 4th century. And the idea that everyone made up Jesus only gained prominence when Zietgiest was released, for the wrong reasons.

But hey, I guess anything that agrees with Athiesm is good even if its lying its head off, right?


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#14

Post by Plutodog » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:15 pm

Hey, if that was part of what he quoted from, I didn't recognize it. I have seen the same variety of stuff elsewhere, including on the net, including before there WAS a Zeitgeist. And the man is speaking his truth, which resonates with me, with where I came from, with the stuff I'm made of. I won't apologize for bringing it up here, discussing it here. I am not holding you on this thread against your will. Please, go in peace if you're in need of being outraged.


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#15

Post by Suranis » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:24 pm

Well like I said, all I wanted to do was point out a factual inaccuracy. That fact I was then challenged on that and told I was dealing in FAITH pissed me off. That was telling me I was just one of those stupid "Faith filled" people for believing in all that rot that experts believe in and that's the only reason I believe all that accurate stuff about the mythology of other religions and that historians actually knew what the hell they were talking about.



Lets dismiss all that and go with the lies. Sounds like faith to me.



A simple "thanks for pointing that out, Suranis" would have sufficed.


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#16

Post by rajah » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:41 pm





..........................................



Of the many stories including my own about loss/lack of belief in the supernatural, the top reasons for losing one’s religion seem to boil down to these:

Unanswered prayer.

Unjust suffering.

Unfulfilled promises.

Unpossible claims.

...................................











My reason for not believing from a very early age is that I realised early on that it was all bullshit. I do not wish to offend anyone here and I am not an "evangelical atheist".

Believe what you want as long as I am not forced to adhere to your beliefs or they do not impinge on my freedoms I do not care. I am certainly not going to argue with anyone because that is pointless.

Regards .............Dick



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#17

Post by Suranis » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:19 am

But its a beautiful bullshit, Dick. And we have gluten free cookies! :D


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#18

Post by Plutodog » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:20 am

I didn't know what you were talking about with Zeitgeist and I did not see those facts as coming from there. I'm well aware they come from multiple sources and have for quite some time. For me, the discussions of other gods with similar stories doesn't mean a lot in terms of my Atheism/Agnosticism. It's just interesting, mostly. But to think that Atheists are just dummies because they saw something in a Hollywood entertainment flick and all of a sudden they're dissing God, is, perhaps a bit of a down-the-nose attitude toward Atheists, maybe? Just a little?



And I don't believe the historians you mention are reliable because they weren't there and cite no eye witnesses (who would need to be vetted, anyway). When I mentioned faith, I meant that because these things are not as factual as some would claim or reliable as some would have it, all these debates come down to "it's a matter of faith". That's not an insult, and I'm sorry you took it that way. But when you wander into a discussion like this you might want to back off just a bit and think about whether there is really an insult meant, an affront given or is there any possibility that you're missing something or I'm missing something or we just disagree and are saying what we think like we've each got a right to? And if it makes you feel better, out atheists have to be careful for sharp elbows and lapsed friendships, judgments on our moral character to this date and will likely be competing with gays to be the last subset of humanity to get to be POTUS. Y'all are in the distinct majority with your theism, if that makes you feel any better.



But if it doesn't then there's this and I admit I'm still non-plussed to this angle on the whole thing: When I was still a believer, that was real enough for me that it didn't bother me much what the poor fools were going to go to hell for their lack of belief anyway said to me (that is after I grew out of the normal insecurity of my youth. Why should I be worried? Maybe my Aspergers' made me unable to see that as important, maybe not. And if I were a believer today, I think I'd feel the same because what the hell, God's going to have the last laugh and he might even give me a friendly elbow, a chuckle, and a "Didja see what that fool said?" And then he'd lower the boom and that's that for that haughty, hard-headed god-trashing Atheist. Like I said, infinite punishment/torture for finite crimes. Ain't that enough?


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#19

Post by Suranis » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:33 am

Ok, I'm talking to a brick wall here that isn't even capavle of seeing why I was so pissed off, so I'll leave with this



"multiple experts have given evidence that Obama's birth cert is a fraud"



See how that works with relying on your "multiple sources" line?


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#20

Post by rajah » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:21 am





But its a beautiful bullshit, Dick. And we have gluten free cookies! :D





Enjoy!

Regards ................Dick



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#21

Post by Plutodog » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:29 am

Nope, I don't equate birthers to Atheists and historians and stuff. Sorry. Nor would it change my opinion about the likelihood of there being a god if they were all lies...it's not a proof one way or the other, as I said above.



What might really matter is if Josephus or Tacitus had anything but the sparest scuttlebutt gossip from 100-200 years previous...but that would only matter to the extent that there was an actual Jesus who was involved in some part of the Bible stories about him. Pilate's condemnation document might mean something, if it could be authenticated. A police report on the grave robbing might mean something if it could be proven. If the Bible wasn't put together from various documents, (leaving various others used by some earlier believers) out by some purportedly wise clerics some 60 years after Constantine's death and nearly 400 AD (long after the fact), it might be a certain amount of proof. But neither the Hebrew-original OT, nor the Christian NT are able to be verified in lots of ways outside the declaration that it was God-inspired within the texts themselves...and even that's placed in further doubt what with the translations, transcriptions, etc. So for me, that doesn't hang together. For you the opposite may be the case and you've likely more education on the pro-bible side of that than I do. But I'm not a a Bible-illiterate babe-in-the-woods either so we pretty much ought to be able to agree to disagree if you're not able to assume we're both working with good intentions and a modicum of reasoning ability and access to resources. But I wish you well, and won't disrespect you with our common epithet for hateful fools, the birthers.


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#22

Post by Suranis » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:32 am











But its a beautiful bullshit, Dick. And we have gluten free cookies! :D





Enjoy!

Regards ................Dick







:twisted:


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#23

Post by Clairez » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:55 am

Thanks for that video. How appropriate for Easter Sunday. :)



I have survived the journey myself, from Baptist (including Bible College) to Evangelical Christian to Searcher- Inquirer to Agnostic to Atheist. It was a journey that took about 20 years from the beginning of my questioning to my satisfaction with the answer and was not without a considerable amount of doubt, fear and pain. But what a relief to have arrived!



I am not outspoken about my lack of belief because I find that many people need the comfort that religion gives them or are too entrenched in decades of religious instruction or fear of the emptiness or insignificance of their lives without God. Whatever. Live and let live. I have no religion to sell or argue over. Let each person complete their own journey or not as they choose. Let each person find peace at their destination.



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#24

Post by Plutodog » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:13 am

I'm fine with that, if it weren't for the proseletizing the little problem of getting a good atheist elected to any office where people find out they're not on the right team, and the desire amongst the more religious right to have the laws prop up their doctrine, affect the rights of others. I think Suranis and I agree on a lot of politics so I don't think THAT was motivating his anger, though.



You're welcome for the movie. I identified with it a lot.


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#25

Post by TheEuropean » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:48 am

Foggy, I remember a time when religious discussions were put into FEMA camp (nr. 1?). Are all those members with easily hurt feelings gone?

On topic :

- We know a lot more about the universe and our place in space and timer than our ancestors. To think that there is just one personal God who takes care of each member of a species on a planet which is less important than a spot of fly shit is childish? / ridiculous ? / hubristic!

- the fall-back position of some theists that God is just the creator of the universe gets cut away by Ockhams razor.

-you, Suranis, believe in miracles. So did the late Pope John Paul II. He was shot and seriously hurt in an attack by a gunman.

John Paul II believed that Mother Mary (of Fatima ) saved him in a miraculous way.

But don't you agree that she did a poor job as bods yguard? Couldn't she avoid that not only the Pope but two bystanders were hit in that attack as well ?



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