Vatican and Celibacy

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RTH10260
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Vatican and Celibacy

#1

Post by RTH10260 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:39 pm

Roman Catholic church could allow married men to become priests
Vatican summit to discuss plan to address clergy shortage in remote Amazon areas

Angela Giuffrida in Rome and Harriet Sherwood

Mon 17 Jun 2019 14.33 BST Last modified on Mon 17 Jun 2019 16.16 BST

The Roman Catholic church is opening the door to a change in its centuries-old requirement that priests must be celibate in a document suggesting older married men may be ordained in remote areas of the Amazon.

A Vatican document has called on the church to consider the far-reaching move as a way to overcome the shortage of clergy in the region.

Although the proposals to be considered by the Vatican concern the ordination of married men in specific communities, the opening up of debate at the highest levels of the church will boost those arguing for a general relaxation of the celibacy rule. However, the possibility of such a profound change to almost a millennium of tradition is likely to dismay conservatives.

The recommendation will be discussed at a synod of bishops from the Amazon taking place at the Vatican in October. A working document for the event says the possibility of ordaining “viri probati” – Latin for “men of proven virtue” – should be discussed.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... me-priests



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DejaMoo
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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#2

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:48 pm

IIRC, the Roman Catholic Church already allows married men to become priests - but only under specific circumstances - converted former Anglican or CoE priests who are over a certain minimum age. Basically, older priests who won't be having any more kids, either due to their wives undergoing menopause, or from choosing to live in a companionate marriage going forward.

I've always maintained the Church's continued stance on celibacy is nowadays mainly due to financial realities. Catholics don't tend to donate as much money their churches as Protestants do, yet they have a much larger hierarchy to support. There's no way those donations will fund the worldwide hierarchy plus pay priests enough to support a family with (presumably) several children) in each parish. And when push comes to shove, the hierarchy prevails.


I've heard this bull before.

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Azastan
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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#3

Post by Azastan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:49 pm

More to the point, married priests with children will have heirs.



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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#4

Post by Sam the Centipede » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:51 pm

Azastan wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:49 pm
More to the point, married priests with children will have heirs.
? I don't understand your point. How does that matter?



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Azastan
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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#5

Post by Azastan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:54 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:51 pm
Azastan wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:49 pm
More to the point, married priests with children will have heirs.
? I don't understand your point. How does that matter?
Do you think the Vatican would willingly allow priests to send money anywhere but into their coffers? A wife would expect to have something like a pension, and a place to live and take care of those children.



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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#6

Post by Hurtzi » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:43 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:51 pm
Azastan wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:49 pm
More to the point, married priests with children will have heirs.
? I don't understand your point. How does that matter?
As far as I remember the history of the Catholic Church this was actually the reason to enforce celibacy in the middle ages. It was about money and not moral.


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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#7

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:17 pm

Azastan wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:49 pm
More to the point, married priests with children will have heirs.
That is/was the ages-old reason behind it: nepotism. Of the many well-known abuses of the Church leadership, one of the long-standing biggies was that of church leaders, from bishops up to the papacy, promoting their illegitimate male offspring to very comfortable and often powerful sinecures within the Church. The Church finally cracked down, but it learned from its history: leaders can and do promote their own offspring at the expense of the institution if they're allowed to get away with it.

Read up on the Borgias, it's a simultaneously fascinating and horrifying account. Like the Trump family, but with syphilis, rotting noses, and poisoners.


I've heard this bull before.

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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#8

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:56 pm

tl:dr - much of the discussion of historical celibacy strikes me as perhaps a bit simplistic.

My recollection is that the rule regarding celibacy was reasonably well established by about the 5th or 6th Century, so the extent to which it was about accumulation of wealth or power might is somewhat debatable. The power motive also seems weakened at least somewhat when one considers the often-complex relationships between secular and religious authorities, the extent of influence monarchs had over the appointment of bishops within their realms, the tendency for most of the wealth to remain within a particular see or monastic community rather than become centralized and so on.

There's also the factor of threat to consider; one wonders to what extent most early medieval monarchs would have perceived a dynastic Church as a threat to their own efforts to build their dynasties.


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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#9

Post by Dan1100 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:24 pm

DejaMoo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:48 pm
IIRC, the Roman Catholic Church already allows married men to become priests - but only under specific circumstances - converted former Anglican or CoE priests who are over a certain minimum age. Basically, older priests who won't be having any more kids, either due to their wives undergoing menopause, or from choosing to live in a companionate marriage going forward.

I've always maintained the Church's continued stance on celibacy is nowadays mainly due to financial realities. Catholics don't tend to donate as much money their churches as Protestants do, yet they have a much larger hierarchy to support. There's no way those donations will fund the worldwide hierarchy plus pay priests enough to support a family with (presumably) several children) in each parish. And when push comes to shove, the hierarchy prevails.
Also Eastern Rite priests are allowed to marry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

The Maronite Church St. Raymond's in St. Louis where all the Syrian mafia used to go to church has (had?) a married priest.


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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#10

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:40 pm

DejaMoo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:17 pm
Read up on the Borgias, it's a simultaneously fascinating and horrifying account. Like the Trump family, but with syphilis, rotting noses, and poisoners.
Yabbut what about the Borgias?



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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#11

Post by Notorial Dissent » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:33 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:40 pm
DejaMoo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:17 pm
Read up on the Borgias, it's a simultaneously fascinating and horrifying account. Like the Trump family, but with syphilis, rotting noses, and poisoners.
Yabbut what about the Borgias?
They were nicer, much more intelligent, did a lot of building, spent a lot of their own money, and were interesting??????????


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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#12

Post by RoadScholar » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:24 am

“In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.”


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X3

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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#13

Post by ZekeB » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:38 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:24 am
“In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.”
But the only cuckoo clock I see anymore is the one on the morning news. A good cuckoo clock would be a nice addition to my house.


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RTH10260
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Re: Vatican and Celibacy

#14

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:18 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:24 am
“In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.”
PM.
The Black Forest region of southern Germany is where cuckoo clocks - mostly depicting a hunting scene - have their real nest.
Going cuckoo about real Swiss cuckoo clocks
THIS CONTENT WAS PUBLISHED ON NOVEMBER 24, 2006 11:11 AM
(swissinfo.ch)

For many tourists the ultimate Swiss souvenir is a cuckoo clock, and the number of shops selling them in all the big cities and resorts won't disappoint.


https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/going-cuck ... cks/681210



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