August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

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August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#1

Post by Kriselda Gray » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:32 pm

The first atomic bomb used in war was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan at 8:15 am


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August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#2

Post by Suranis » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:53 pm

And ushered in 50 years of peace! [/reagan]


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#3

Post by GreatGrey » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:11 pm

Kriselda Gray wrote:The first atomic bomb used in war was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan at 8:15 am
And now it's 70 years. August 5, 7:15 pm Eastern Daylight Time today will mark the time, just about an hour from when I'm posting this.

Something most people get wrong about it.

Because it's been preserved people think the "Atomic Dome" was directly under the blast. It was close, but not directly under.


Directly under the bomb was the Shima Clinic.


Dr. Shima survived because early that morning he went out to the countryside to help another doctor with a difficult operation.

Today there is a small marker outside the rebuilt clinic.




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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#4

Post by Hektor » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:09 pm

I thank every day that the nuclear genie has remained corked (at least as a weapon used in war) for nearly seventy years. Are we earthings smarter than we sometimes act or have just been incredibly lucky?



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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#5

Post by Family Liberty Patriot » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:31 pm

Hektor wrote:I thank every day that the nuclear genie has remained corked (at least as a weapon used in war) for nearly seventy years. Are we earthings smarter than we sometimes act or have just been incredibly lucky?
The second one.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#6

Post by SueDB » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:02 pm

Family Liberty Patriot wrote:
Hektor wrote:I thank every day that the nuclear genie has remained corked (at least as a weapon used in war) for nearly seventy years. Are we earthings smarter than we sometimes act or have just been incredibly lucky?
The second one.
:yeah:

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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#7

Post by Foggy » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:16 am

It's amazing how primitive our technology was when we built that thing.

I know way more about Hiroshima than it's healthy to even know. I have many books about it.

On the whole, though, I still support the decision Truman made. In the context of the time, it really wasn't a difficult choice.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#8

Post by SueDB » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:49 am

It's amazing that our technology today is so primitive - we have no way of de-creating/disposing of perfectly good but highly radioactive Plutonium cores of our weapons.

We created the bomb/reactors etc, but cannot seem to figure out how to deal with the mess. It is pretty much a dead end process for a civilization that wants to continue in existence.

There is a bunch of land for sale across the Columbia River from the Hanford Atomic Project site....

Somewhere out there in Hanford is the core from the Trojan Nuclear Plant that used to be north of Portland in Oregon. They decommissioned it, and entombed it in concrete. Then they hauled it up the Columbia River to Hanford. It's buried somewhere out in the back 40.

Don't get me started about the former Rocky Flats Nuc Facility ticking time bomb just northwest of downtown Denver.

For some reason the Nuclear facilities in Argo, Idaho don't bother me that much...after all, it's just Idaho. If it glows too much, we can always build a bridge over it.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#9

Post by ZekeB » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:28 am

The moral of the story being, anything we invent will eventually end up in our enemy's hands. Can you think of anything that hasn't? Of course we never plan that far ahead.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#10

Post by SueDB » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:32 am

We only try to figure out how to dispose of something after it becomes a national crisis.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#11

Post by L00Kit » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:01 am

Wow. Bone-chilling moment in history.

Earlier this week, Japan released a digital version of Hirohito's verbal surrender.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/the-emperor ... -1.2498174



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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#12

Post by Shizzle Popped » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:41 pm

Foggy wrote:On the whole, though, I still support the decision Truman made. In the context of the time, it really wasn't a difficult choice.
I agree. I think a lot of people fault Truman today based on what we know now. It was a decision between obliterating a couple of cities and hopefully ending the war, or a full scale invasion at the probable cost of more than a million lives. At the time, the Japanese army had shown a startling willingness to fight to the very last soldier while defending a rock in the middle of the Pacific. We had also become extremely proficient at killing tens of thousands of people in a single fire bombing raid. An invasion of Japan would have come at a horrible cost to both sides.

In some respects it may be better that we discovered what an awful thing it was when the yields were in the low kilotons rather than megatons. The bombs dropped on Japan were mere popguns compared to what came later. By the early 1960s we had howitzer shells that were more powerful than either of those bombs. Scary stuff. But it's because the entire world had seen the results that we were always too terrified to use them again. Will we ever sufficiently lose our minds enough to use them again? I don't know. I hope not. I worry much more about a nuclear North Korea than I do about a nuclear Iran. A complete crackpot is much more likely to press the button than the Iranians.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#13

Post by Foggy » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:52 pm

I've seen quotes by soldiers who were in uniform at the time.

"It meant that I was going to survive to grow up and live out the rest of my life." Hard to argue with that sentiment.

Yes, a lot of the troops from Europe were being transferred to the Pacific to get ready for an invasion of Japan. It's really difficult to comprehend the size of the conflagration that would have been.

With the sneak attack on Pearl and the way we knew the Japanese treated their war prisoners and the suicide attacks on our ships, the Japanese were far more hated than the Germans. There was no sympathy for the people of Hiroshima, even though it was not a major military target. And to be honest, probably more people died in the firebombing of Tokyo earlier in 1945.

But none of that reduces the horror of the bomb. There were square miles of Hiroshima where nothing was left higher than your knee. In the books where the survivors are quoted, virtually all of them thought the bomb had landed just about on top of them. Thousands drowned when they jumped in the river because of the burns to their flesh.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#14

Post by Hektor » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:02 pm

The Pacific theater was as much war on the knife as the Eastern Front. I don't disagree with Truman's decision (but also credit the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in contributing to the end of the war in the East). However, I also wish to credit Truman's decision in the early 1950's not to use the bomb against Manchuria when MacArthur demanded it after the Chinese intervention in the Korean war.



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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#15

Post by magdalen77 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:30 pm

SueDB wrote:It's amazing that our technology today is so primitive - we have no way of de-creating/disposing of perfectly good but highly radioactive Plutonium cores of our weapons.

We created the bomb/reactors etc, but cannot seem to figure out how to deal with the mess. It is pretty much a dead end process for a civilization that wants to continue in existence.

There is a bunch of land for sale across the Columbia River from the Hanford Atomic Project site....

Somewhere out there in Hanford is the core from the Trojan Nuclear Plant that used to be north of Portland in Oregon. They decommissioned it, and entombed it in concrete. Then they hauled it up the Columbia River to Hanford. It's buried somewhere out in the back 40.

Don't get me started about the former Rocky Flats Nuc Facility ticking time bomb just northwest of downtown Denver.

For some reason the Nuclear facilities in Argo, Idaho don't bother me that much...after all, it's just Idaho. If it glows too much, we can always build a bridge over it.
Have you ever been to the Nevada Test Site? I took a course there about 8 years ago. For the class photo they took a picture of us at the site of an underground explosion in 1965. It was still pretty doggone radioactive in 2007.



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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#16

Post by SueDB » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:34 pm

Thought it would be an interesting place. Ms SueDB however. VEGAS BABY!


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#17

Post by Kriselda Gray » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:38 pm

ZekeB wrote:The moral of the story being, anything we invent will eventually end up in our enemy's hands. Can you think of anything that hasn't? Of course we never plan that far ahead.
:yeah:

Sometimes I think that in discovering how to split the atom, mankind maybe went a step too far. I know there have been benefits from it, but IMO - based on reading I've done about the development of nuclear energy and weapons, and the disasters or near-disasters that have occurred around the world - there's just so much that can go wrong, and so many ways for the technology to cause harm - accidentally or on purpose.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#18

Post by GreatGrey » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:46 pm

Foggy wrote: I know way more about Hiroshima than it's healthy to even know. I have many books about it.
Same here.

Have you ever heard of Atomic John?

I've recently started corresponding with him, a really interesting guy. I've seen him take apart so many of the Nuke Deniers (people who think there's no nukes, just a Jewish conspiracy to further the Illuminati) and woe to the person who writes a book with factual errors or made up crap (C. Pelligrino for example). I don't know his politics, but he would make a great FogBowzer.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#19

Post by bob » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:29 pm

Foggy wrote:It's amazing how primitive our technology was when we built that thing.
I think about this when I think about Iran, etc. At this point, there's simply no way any country can "prevent" others from figuring out how to make a bomb. It is just a matter of time and access to fissile/fusion materials.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#20

Post by Suranis » Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:12 am

Hektor wrote:The Pacific theater was as much war on the knife as the Eastern Front. I don't disagree with Truman's decision (but also credit the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in contributing to the end of the war in the East). However, I also wish to credit Truman's decision in the early 1950's not to use the bomb against Manchuria when MacArthur demanded it after the Chinese intervention in the Korean war.
Yeah. when you look at the timings the whole "the Bomb ended the war" is a little dubious. "Little boy" was dropped on the 6th and "Fat Man" the 9th. The Soviets declared war on Japan on the 8th and invaded the Kuria Islands an hour later. Considering the Soviets were on Japanese soil and moving south its at least arguable that was the primary consideration for the Japanese surrender; surrender while they could still surrender to the US. The Japanese had issued no comment on the first Nuke so I don't see what he second one would have made much difference in shock value.

The fact that most histories don't care to mention the Kuria operation shows that most are trying to whitewash it out to give the glory to the bomb, which is pretty unfair. people killed their entire families on Eastern Germany rather than face Soviet occupation so that should give you some idea how terrified people were at the though of Soviet occupation. Certainly one has to point out legitimately that The soviet boots on their soil had to be a consideration as well as the bomb.

I'm not going to Judge Truman though, its not an easy thing to be in those shoes.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#21

Post by SueDB » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:46 am

bob wrote:
Foggy wrote:It's amazing how primitive our technology was when we built that thing.
I think about this when I think about Iran, etc. At this point, there's simply no way any country can "prevent" others from figuring out how to make a bomb. It is just a matter of time and access to fissile/fusion materials.
It's really a matter of money. It take big bucks to assemble the parts needed for a simple atomic device. The material is and has for the last 40 years - been available. It's a matter of how much cash, and how many folks in your population you want to starve because you've elected the road which will free you from a large bit of US, China, and Russian bullying.

Pakistanis and Indians have a good time thumbing their nose at the US for a couple of decades. Nkorea what - 70 years??? First under the shadow of the Soviets, then the Chinese, then the bomb.

The technology really isn't that hard, it's just complicated in how to keep the material together long enough (microseconds) for the chain reaction to take effect. You can get the plans off the Internet or from Israel. Take two chunks of material and slam them together real fast. You may not get a 20 KT bomb, but you will get a very messy state.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#22

Post by GreatGrey » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:59 am

Foggy wrote:It's amazing how primitive our technology was when we built that thing.

I know way more about Hiroshima than it's healthy to even know. I have many books about it.

On the whole, though, I still support the decision Truman made. In the context of the time, it really wasn't a difficult choice.
I got my copy of John Coster-Mullen's book yesterday. AWESOME.

Gonna send one to you. Get ready to put your Technical Hat on.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#23

Post by TollandRCR » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:11 am

A friend and I visited Hiroshima more than two decades ago. Today you find a vibrant city, with the Peace Park in the center.

We were at an academic reception in Tokyo when the most senior professor there asked me why we were going to Hiroshima. I had visited Japan for academic presentations several times, so my response was automatic: "I don't think that I can continue to come to Japan without visiting Hiroshima." His response: "Thank you."

It's easy and pleasant to get there on the bullet train. It is not so easy and pleasant to visit the Peace Park. You come across groups of Japanese teenagers standing at some memorial, all sobbing, boys as well as girls. This simple memorial is avoided by many visitors.

It contains the ashes of 70,000 unidentified victims.

In the museum there is a wall with a human shadow burnt into it by the light of the bomb.

The Park is full of monuments, some of which may surprise a visitor.

There are Americans there. As I saw when visiting Hanoi, most seem likely to be veterans of that war. They are old men who come in groups. They also stand and cry.

I would have all Americans visit Hiroshima Memorial Peace Park.

I may have the wherewithal later to discuss my talks with Japanese academics about Hiroshima and Nagasaki again. It is difficult.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#24

Post by TollandRCR » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:15 am

Not the analytical post of my conversations with Japanese about Hiroshima that I may provide:

Everybody knows the Fermi Paradox: in this universe with billions of stars, some much older than Sol; with the likelihood that some will have earth-like ("Goldilocks") planets; with the possibility that some of them will develop intelligent life; with the lesser possibility that some of those will develop interstellar travel; with only a million years required for the universe to be traversed at slower-than-light speed travel:

Where is everybody? Why have we not been visited?

One answer: All of those wonderful, advanced civilizations learned how to split the atom in anger. That is why they are all now gone, never to drop by to say "hi." Others may arise.

That is the danger of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. With the dropping of those two bombs, we crossed a line beyond which we cannot retreat. Nothing in human history suggests that we shall ever forget to make war. Nor shall those who have since followed us into the making of the most destructive weapons of war yet known (biowarfare may yet be more effective). It's a universe of self-destruction.

(I know that I am deeply considering whether nuclear power offers the best middle-term solution to our fossil fuels problem. It may or may not be possible to separate nuclear power from nuclear warfare.)

In the meantime there is Kim Jong-Un.


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Re: August 6, 1945 - 69 years ago

#25

Post by TollandRCR » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:38 pm

This postscript is not about the military strategy that ended World War II in the Pacific; I have no expertise on such matters. Nor is it about Nanjing, Manchukuo, Shanghai, Pearl Harbor, Iwo Jima, Guam, Dresden, Tokyo, the Kuril Islands, or the Japanese POW camps. Nor is it about whether some alternative policy by FDR might have stopped, without war, Japanese imperialism and its obscene cruelty to captive populations. Nor is about how near the Nazis (and perhaps the Japanese) were to a nuclear weapon, or what we might all owe to Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg. The lesson of the Hiroshima Memorial Peace Park is not about evils and atrocities in our shared and recent past.

The Park is about a challenge that we and our most distant heirs will forever face.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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