Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 28210
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#1

Post by Foggy » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:57 pm

Six days from today is the 70th anniversary of Operation Uranus. Three Soviet Armies surrounded the German Sixth Army and its Romanian allies, which had bogged down trying to capture the city of Stalingrad.





About 250,000 German and Romanian soldiers were caught in der Kessel - "the Cauldron".





About 195,000 of them were Germans.





By the time they surrendered in February 1943, only 110,000 Germans were still alive. A few had been airlifted out. Not many.





Only about 6,000 of them ever made it home to see Germany again. I don't have numbers on the fate of the Romanians.





The Battle of Stalingrad was the most awesome battle in history, IMHO. Here's a [link]Wikipedia article,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_stalingrad[/link]. Some estimates of the casualties are as high as two million, but no one will ever know the real number.





"There is no land beyond the Volga."






User avatar
SueDB
Posts: 27756
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:02 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#2

Post by SueDB » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:25 pm

It's also known as the Graveyard of the Wehrmacht.A German Field Marshal had never surrendered up to that point...Hitler expected a death in battle or suicide. Hitler was so pissed off at his new Field Marshal that he stopped promoting folks for a bit.Hitler flew into a rage, and vowed never to appoint another field marshal again, though he would in fact go on to appoint another seven field marshals during the last two years of the war.[/break1]wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Paulus]Wiki for Friedrich_Paulus (He wasn't a Von Paulus)
“If You're Not In The Obit, Eat Breakfast”

Remember, Orly NEVAH disappoints!

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 28210
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#3

Post by Foggy » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:01 am

When the Wehrmacht was marching across the southern Russian steppes all summer, they were an invincible army of superior beings. The wheat was high, the farms were a vast supply house, and the Germans were having the time of their lives, killing and raping and pillaging the 'inferior' Russian peasants. They thought they were unstoppable and destined for greatness, conquering the oil fields of the Caucasus, which was their original goal.





Then on a whim from Hitler - he noticed how close they were on the map and decided to claim the city named after the Soviet leader - they decided to turn and conquer Stalingrad before moving on to the oilfields.





Mistake.





In September the entire city was turned into a wasteland of rubble. Fighting wasn't just street to street and house to house: At times there would be Germans on one floor of the vast factories, and Soviets on the floor above (or below), with both sides firing machine guns and throwing grenades.





It's really impossible to describe what a hellish nightmare Stalingrad was. Small hills within the city would be shelled so furiously that bodies would be unburied by the explosions ... and then reburied by more explosions.





Suddenly, the invincible German Wehrmacht started getting bogged down in this urban quagmire of blood and death. The happy days of crossing the steppes were a distant memory only weeks old. And the Russian winter started clamping down.





Then Uranus was sprung, and the Germans were trapped. Von Manstein said he could break through; von Richthofen said he could supply the trapped soldiers by air. Hitler believed them both, which sealed the fate of the Sixth Army for good. He refused to let them break out; he wanted to win this battle, like he had won all previous battles.





But the cold and the suffering intensified daily. When a horse died, you had to cut it up and cook it immediately, because in a few hours the carcass would be frozen so solid you couldn't cut it with an axe ... and nobody had the strength left to use an axe anyway.





Germans started dying like flies. Soviets had been dying like flies since the beginning, but they could send infinite reinforcements from the interior and as far away as Siberia. From Nov. 19 until the end, the two mighty armies slugged it out day by day, but the Germans had no way to resupply or reinforce. It's always seemed incongruous to me that they called it Der Kessel (the Cauldron). Cauldrons are hot; this cauldron was a frozen hell on Earth.





In the end, it's surprising that the Russians even allowed 6,000 of the Germans to go home. After what the Germans did - and were planning to do - to the Russians, it would have been understandable if the Russians had killed them all on the spot in February '43.





I've got four books about the Battle of Stalingrad, and I've got to find time to read about it again soon. The whole thing was beyond the realm of my imagination ...





November of 1942 was also the time of Operation Torch (the U.S. invasion of North Africa) and the second battle of El Alamein. They say that up until November 1942, everything went right for Hitler and Germany; after that month, nothing ever went right.

A Legal Lohengrin
Posts: 10415
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 pm

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#4

Post by A Legal Lohengrin » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:15 am

Stalingrad is an example of what happens when two totalitarian societies clash with absolutely zero regard for the lives of the people. A totalitarian society devalues people to the point they are completely expendable.When someone like Romney says shit like he did about the 47%, it may not quite be Stalingrad, but it's the first step toward a society that considers its citizens to be expendable trash.The U.S. may have sent soldiers into harm's way in World War II, but nobody was expendable. The enemy paid dearly for every life. The U.S. should continue to be the opposite of the kind of evil regimes that perpetrated Stalingrad.The neocons have basically the same attitude, at heart, as Stalin. They want their little wars (even though none of these people have served themselves) and don't care about the consequences to others. Luckily, unlike actual totalitarian societies, we only allow these people improper influence. It's ghastly to think what they'd do with complete control.

User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 20731
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#5

Post by TollandRCR » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:54 am

...


When someone like Romney says shit like he did about the 47%, it may not quite be Stalingrad, but it's the first step toward a society that considers its citizens to be expendable trash.Yes! A long first step.





Romney and the Repugs postured as the candidates for freedom and liberty. The only thing they valued was the ability to get rich. Otherwise, they were increasingly totalitarian in their platform. I continue to see parallels in what I am reading in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, which I started because I thought the parallels were becoming ever more obvious. Even the faux patriotism, focused on white people in an America that has never existed, is reminiscent of Hitler's Blut und Boden.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 20731
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#6

Post by TollandRCR » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:39 am

Hannibal, the great master of logistics, failed in the Second Punic War for reasons similar to those that cost Hitler his army. He left Spain as well-equipped as it was possible for an army of 40,000-60,000 to be. His 37 elephants were sure to be "weapons of fear" if he could get them to the other side.However, the local population did not cooperate in rape, pillage, and subservience. They delayed the army so that it had to cross the Alps in the snow. When the army reached the plains, all of their elephants were dead. Despite that, he won two victories against the Romans. What he had not expected was that the Roman league would remain united and that Roman generals could reorganize an army out of chaos. Most importantly, he paused rather than invading Rome, and that pause enabled the Romans to recover. It was rather like Hitler diverting the troops to Stalingrad rather than continuing the march on the prize, Moscow. However, Hitler and his generals were inferior in logistics to Hannibal and his generals, and the toll was enormous. It was all downhill for Hitler after Stalingrad.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 28210
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#7

Post by Foggy » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:50 am

Despite that, he won two victories against the Romans.Oh, wow! I caught Tollie in a boo boo, and I didn't even have to look it up!Hannibal won THREE victories against the Romans:[*:3sieanqy]Battle of Trebia [*:3sieanqy]Battle of Lake Trasimene[*:3sieanqy]Battle of Cannae (Also, the Sixth Army's destination was supposed to be the oilfields of the Caucasus, not Moscow. Hitler wanted that oil, but he let himself be sidetracked.)

User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 20731
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#8

Post by TollandRCR » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:26 pm

True on both. The Germans really needed those oil fields, but I think Hitler's insanity was already in control.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

Paul Pieniezny
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:42 am

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#9

Post by Paul Pieniezny » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:59 pm

There is a Wikipedia article on Uranus too. The encircled troops also included a Croat infantry regiment (calling Mr Levy, calling Mr Levy).The main reason why Uranus succeeded (apart from the stubbornness of Soviet soldiers defending their homeland, Mat' Rodina, Stalin notwithstanding), was the fact that the German army did not really have the men needed to go on the offensive in 1942. As one general wrote in his diary: "Driving to the Caucaus from the Ukraine. Before us, no enemies. Behind us, no reserves." The German army would have got into trouble anyway, even if they had not gone for Stalingrad, or ... had gone for Stalingrad and left the Caucasus alone (as the German generals in fact first suggested, but Hitler refused on the grounds that he needed the oil). The wide front was not created by the offensive, it was there before, because the Germams were in Russia.Hitler was using his allies as reserves. Romanians and Hungarians made up the bulk. There were 1.2 million Romanian soldiers in the Soviet Union, 140,000 on the Stalingrad front and South of Stalingrad. Because of the hatred between Hungarians and Romanians (Hitler had given Hungarian-speaking Transylvania to Hungary), Italians and Croats were used as a "tampon" (thanks, Zorba) between both.Although the Red Army made their main attack on the points where Italians and Romanians were linked up, no Italians ended up amomg the encircled, because the Soviet thrust from the point of impact was towards the South. One Croat regiment ended up in Stalingrad after foolishly obeying the first general order to retreat INTO the pocket. As for the Italians, they were so disorganized after a few hours (unlike the Romanians, they were largely NOT mechanized) that no order could be obeyed. Some historians tell how Mussolini called Hitler anxious to hear how high Italian casualties were. Hitler, who was probably frantically discussing various counter-measures with his generals is said to have given the short answer "There are no Italian casualties. They are all running." The Soviet army actually used real cavalry against the Italians, knowing that would suffice.Both the real Russian losses at Stalingrad and the Romanian losses during the whole war against the Soviet Union are still a matter of contention. During the first months of the urban war in Stalingrad, the Soviets sent inexperienced and scarcely armed workers' batallions into battle (usually defensive yes, but many were simply buried into the rubble by Stuka attacks), Many civilians and injured soldiers also died fleeing the city over the frozen river. Even today, there are places where everybody knows there must be hundreds of dead soldiers and civilians just piled up under rubble, either in what now looks like a hill or a shallow water bank. The town administration prefers to keep them there as natural cemeteries. Contrast: we do more or less know the figure of Romanian casualties for the nine months they fought on the allied side: 167,0000 dead, injured or missing.Stalingrad was a turning point in many ways that most did not recognize for some time. It destroyed the Luftwaffe as a force that could decide battles on its own. No battle of Britain would ever be possible again. The fighting at Stalingrad also taught Russian generals a lesson they should have learnt a year before: the technical superiority of the Wehrmacht was built on the perfect coordination of bombers followed by Stukas, tanks penetrating and infantry mopping up. By engaging the German infantry at close range, the fatal trinity was broken, as Stukas could not dive onto, nor could tanks drive into, buildings that their own troops were still fighting in and over. The Red Army might have learnt that lesson the year before, if they had not been ordered by Stalin to stupidly stand their ground everywhere where tanks passed them by and they were in danger of incirclement, instead of seeking out positions that could be better defended. One stubborn stand your ground that almost made sense, because the position was so strong, was at the fortress of Brest Litovsk. There is still a lot of debate over how long the fighting lasted. Strangely, after the death of Stalin, the defenders were turned into the ultimate heroes of the Soviet Union, holding up the German advance for months (in fact, organized defense at the fortress is usually thought to have lasted one week exactly, some go for two weeks), thus indirectly saving Moscow and showing the later defenders of Stalingrad how to beat the Germans. In fact, Brest Litovsk was so insignificant (unlike Stalingrad) that the Wehrmacht simply passed it by and left it to bombing (!) Stukas to remove the blot on the landscape. The elasticity of Soviet history - it was even used against Stalin!

John Thomas8
Posts: 5640
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 am

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#10

Post by John Thomas8 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:23 pm

From [/break1]org/articles/battles_stalingrad.html]here: (historyofwar.org)





The intensity of fighting can be gauged from what one German Leutnant wrote: "We have fought during fifteen days for a single house. The front is a corridor between burnt-out rooms; it is the thin ceiling between two floors ... From story to story, faces black with sweat, we bombard each other with grenades in the middle of explosions, clouds of dust and smoke, heaps of mortar, floods of blood, fragments of furniture and human beings ... The street is no longer measured by meters but by corpses ... Stalingrad is no longer a town. By day it is an enormous cloud of burning, blinding smoke; it is a vast furnace lit by the reflection of the flames. And when night arrives, one of those scorching howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 20731
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#11

Post by TollandRCR » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:19 pm

An odd thing in my experience is that I have never met a German of a certain age who fought on the Western front. I never raise the question, and they are probably equally reluctant to talk about it. However, I did have a course with a very prominent professor of philosophy (symbolic logic) who was visiting for a year from Germany. He was eager to discuss his experience in World War II, which was only 17-18 years in the past. He said that he fought only on the Eastern front and that he had been at Stalingrad. I guess that he was one of the very lucky ones, perhaps one of the ~30,000 airlifted out by the Luftwaffe. I did not get the sense that he had been an officer. I think he was assigned to do calculations for an artillery unit, which may have kept him well out of the fighting.He was just a boy who had been taken out of gymnasium and sent to the front. He had been in Hitler Youth as was required. Like many of those who died at Stalingrad, he was not a Nazi. He fought because he was told to fight. I may have picked up some of my hatred of war from him. That hatred has been intensified by the stories told above.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
SueDB
Posts: 27756
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:02 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#12

Post by SueDB » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:55 pm

http://img.russia.edu.ru/novosti/volgu/volgu_18.jpg





Huge Statue part of the Battle of Stalingrad Memorial - The Motherland Calls





Largest freestanding statute in the world IRR....


Regardless, it is quite impressive.
“If You're Not In The Obit, Eat Breakfast”

Remember, Orly NEVAH disappoints!

A Legal Lohengrin
Posts: 10415
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 pm

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#13

Post by A Legal Lohengrin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:57 pm

http://img.russia.edu.ru/novosti/volgu/volgu_18.jpg





Huge Statue part of the Battle of Stalingrad Memorial - The Motherland Calls





Largest freestanding statute in the world IRR....


Regardless, it is quite impressive.Quite impressive, true.





What it is, though, is a giant statue, and some soldiers GOOSE STEPPING.





No thanks.

A Legal Lohengrin
Posts: 10415
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 pm

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#14

Post by A Legal Lohengrin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:59 pm

This is why Russians laugh at America glamorizing skirmishes like the Battle of Bulge and Bastogne.Let them laugh. A few millions or tens of millions less of us were under the ground when WW II ended.

John Thomas8
Posts: 5640
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 am

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#15

Post by John Thomas8 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:12 am

It doesn't help that the Soviets completely gutted their officer corps and took a horrid beating at the outset of the German invasion because of it. Most of the destruction was due to a lack of effective leadership from the top down to the company level, where the effective officers that figured out to defer to Stalin and not stand out too much to get killed. Stalin backed off the NVKD squads back stopping line troops when there were sufficient weapons and ammunition to field a viable military force.

User avatar
SueDB
Posts: 27756
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:02 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#16

Post by SueDB » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:20 am

What it is, though, is a giant statue, and some soldiers GOOSE STEPPINGThese are Russian Soldiers. It is not quite the goose step as they swing their arms when not holding a rifle. They have marched this way for a century. Funny you haven't noticed it in the May Day Parades etc.
“If You're Not In The Obit, Eat Breakfast”

Remember, Orly NEVAH disappoints!

A Legal Lohengrin
Posts: 10415
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 pm

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#17

Post by A Legal Lohengrin » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:56 am

What it is, though, is a giant statue, and some soldiers GOOSE STEPPINGThese are Russian Soldiers. It is not quite the goose step as they swing their arms when not holding a rifle. They have marched this way for a century. Funny you haven't noticed it in the May Day Parades etc.I certainly have, although there has never been any reason to mention that here. I despise that unnatural form of marching. Frankly, I'm not a fan of marching in general.

User avatar
SueDB
Posts: 27756
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:02 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#18

Post by SueDB » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:12 am

What it is, though, is a giant statue, and some soldiers GOOSE STEPPINGThese are Russian Soldiers. It is not quite the goose step as they swing their arms when not holding a rifle. They have marched this way for a century. Funny you haven't noticed it in the May Day Parades etc.I certainly have, although there has never been any reason to mention that here. I despise that unnatural form of marching. Frankly, I'm not a fan of marching in general.Marching has it's uses. It is one of the basic activities that separate the soldier from the civilian. As such it is a common bond that ties all soldiers (service folks) together. It is a skill born in battle used to efficiently move large numbers of folks from point a to point b.
“If You're Not In The Obit, Eat Breakfast”

Remember, Orly NEVAH disappoints!

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 28210
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#19

Post by Foggy » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:33 am

Ever since I was a young boy, I've been told: "You don't just walk, you march." ;;)

User avatar
SueDB
Posts: 27756
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:02 pm
Location: RIP, my friend. - Foggy

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#20

Post by SueDB » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:40 am

All marching movements start off with the left foot except for one...
Hidden Content
This board requires you to be registered and logged-in to view hidden content.
“If You're Not In The Obit, Eat Breakfast”

Remember, Orly NEVAH disappoints!

chancery
Posts: 1627
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:51 pm

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#21

Post by chancery » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:35 pm

Foggy (and everyone else reading this thread),





Since you’re interested in Stalingrad, you should take a look at economist Brad DeLong’s estimable continuing “live-blog” of World War II, which he started on May 10, 2010 (corresponding to May 10, 1940).





The contents are a fascinating mixture of excerpts from history texts, diaries, and best of all, contemporary letters, reports, speeches, etc.





Two favorite entries, among many that I could choose, are:





[/break1]typepad.com/sdj/2012/01/liveblogging-world-war-ii-january-3-1942.html]January 2, 1942: German army internal report commenting dryly that it was not “reconcilable with our concepts of custom and decency up to the present time that a mass slaughter of human beings should be carried out quite publicly, as on an outdoor stage“; and





[/break1]typepad.com/sdj/2011/12/liveblogging-world-war-ii-december-13-1941.html]December 13, 1941: Report of the captain of the USS California to CIC U.S. Pacific Fleet on the conduct of the ship’s officers and men on December 7.





Delong has paid special attention to the Eastern Front, and to Stalingrad in particular. He wrote a moving short essay titled [/break1]typepad.com/sdj/2012/10/stalingrad-at-70.html]Our Debt to Stalingrad, and has covered the battle closely in the last several months.





A google search for the WW II entries on his blog is:





site:delong.typepad.com intitle:"world war”.





Add a custom date range beginning at May 10, 2010 and sort by date to view in reverse chronological order. (Does any one know how to display google results in chron rather than reverse-chron order?)





Of course, you can add intext:stalingrad, or as you please, to focus on a topic of interest.





Apart from the WW II entries, DeLong’s blog is a wonderful resource for economics and politics topics. I would recommend it, but I suspect that your online time is probably heavily booked already ...

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 28210
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#22

Post by Foggy » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:20 pm

Oh that is awesome, chancery. Thank you so much.

Paul Pieniezny
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:42 am

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#23

Post by Paul Pieniezny » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:26 pm

There is some debate about who introduced the goose step in the Russian army, but it dates from the 18th century (either beginning or very end). Both Peter the Great and Paul I, son of Catherine, have been claimed. It is a copy of the old Prussian march and it is therefore normal that it differs a bit from the German version in the GDR. I've seen Ukrainian 17-year olds in school uniforms march up to monuments in pairs (one boy, one girl) carrying a wreath between them. Prompting arguments over whether they should move their free arm.The professor could be one the 50,000 German Stalingrad POWs who returned. Many died in captivity because of contagious diseases that they already had when captured. Note that the survival chance of a German POW in the Soviet Union was twice that of a Soviet POW in Germany, even though most German POWs were only released many years after the war. Stalingrad was an exception. About no German soldiers on the Western Front: almost all the East European POWs and defectors whom the nazis convinced to fight on their side were sent to the Western front. Did not the US too prefer to send Japanese American soldiers to Europe to fight the Germans? Of course except for the spies and interpreters. Reports about the first POWs taken on June 6th, 1944, said that most of them were Russians. Talking about foreigners fighting for Germany, a little anecdote. Stalingrad was the last major battle fought by the Red Army on its own. In later campaigns, the Red Army had the support of the Polish People's Army and of Free French pilots (in their short campaign against Japan, the Red Army had the support of the Chinese communists). But of course, without US and British help, the Soviet Union would not have had the tanks to pull this one of.

John Thomas8
Posts: 5640
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 am

Operation Uranus and der Kessel: The Battle of Stalingrad

#24

Post by John Thomas8 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:33 pm

But of course, without US and British help, the Soviet Union would not have had the tanks to pull this one of.We made their T-34s for them? JS-1s? KV-1s and KV-2s? Lend-lease gear was of great use to them, but their tanks were their design, built by them with the ground they were going to fight over in mind. Their tanks utilized wider tracks for greater cross-country mobility.

Post Reply

Return to “Military History”