Denmark

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RTH10260
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Denmark

#1

Post by RTH10260 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:48 pm

Russia hacked Danish defense for two years, minister tells newspaper
Russia has hacked the Danish defense and gained access to employees' emails in 2015 and 2016, NATO member Denmark's defense minister told newspaper Berlingske on Sunday.

The report comes at a time when several Western governments, including the United States, France and Britain, have accused Russia of resorting to hacking to influence elections -- allegations Moscow has repeatedly dismissed as baseless.

A report from the Danish Defense Intelligence Service's unit for cyber security said "a foreign player" had spied against Danish authorities and gained access to non-classified documents.

It did not name the country behind the espionage, but Foreign Minister Claus Hjort Frederiksen told Berlingske it was Russia.

"It is linked to the intelligence services or central elements in the Russian government, and it is a constant battle to keep them away," Frederiksen told the newspaper.

A spokeswoman from the Danish Defense Ministry confirmed that the minister had been quoted correctly but said he would give no further comments for the time being.

Frederiksen told Berlingske the hacking had been possible due to insufficient security around emails with non-classified material, something that has since been improved.

The group behind the attack went under the name APT28 or Fancy Bear and was one of two groups which allegedly gained illegal access to U.S. democrats' emails last year, according to Berlingske.



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Re: Denmark

#2

Post by AndyinPA » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:28 pm

Putin is looking to destroy any and all democratic countries. The weaker democracies are, the better position he thinks he is in. He's probably right.



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Re: Denmark

#3

Post by Addie » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:40 pm

New York Times
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant 'Ghettos'

Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.

Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled.

For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population. Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.

Politicians’ description of the ghettos has become increasingly sinister. In his annual New Year’s speech, Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen warned that ghettos could “reach out their tentacles onto the streets” by spreading violence, and that because of ghettos, “cracks have appeared on the map of Denmark.” Politicians who once used the word “integration” now call frankly for “assimilation.”


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Re: Denmark

#4

Post by TollandRCR » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:53 pm

I am dismayed that the Danes have chosen this path. Where did we get the idea that people who share a government should also share values? America did fine accepting diversity. It is a Trump idea that people should share values


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Re: Denmark

#5

Post by Till Eulenspiegel » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:06 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:53 pm
I am dismayed that the Danes have chosen this path. Where did we get the idea that people who share a government should also share values? America did fine accepting diversity. It is a Trump idea that people should share values
Isn't it "when you're in Rome......".

Denmark has developed a society well superior to any other worlwide. Are they required to sacrifice this on the altar of diversity ?


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RTH10260
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Re: Denmark

#6

Post by RTH10260 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:22 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:53 pm
I am dismayed that the Danes have chosen this path. Where did we get the idea that people who share a government should also share values? America did fine accepting diversity. It is a Trump idea that people should share values
We Europeans have a tradition of local values and we expect foreigners to adapt and integrate. As I mentioned several times in this forum, we don't appreciate "China Towns", eg separate foreign cultural islands.



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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Denmark

#7

Post by Sam the Centipede » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:47 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:53 pm
I am dismayed that the Danes have chosen this path. Where did we get the idea that people who share a government should also share values? America did fine accepting diversity. It is a Trump idea that people should share values
America on which planet? The one that did not attempt to eradicate Native Americans, enslave Africans, prevent Asians from acquiring citizenship, keep South Americans out and disenfranchise poor non-white people?



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Re: Denmark

#8

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:01 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:53 pm
I am dismayed that the Danes have chosen this path. Where did we get the idea that people who share a government should also share values? America did fine accepting diversity. It is a Trump idea that people should share values
Denmark is within its rights. It has no obligation to become a diverisifed country if it decides otherwise. If it wants its residents to share its values, it has the right to do so.



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Mikedunford
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Re: Denmark

#9

Post by Mikedunford » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:29 pm

Carl von Ossietsky wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:06 pm
TollandRCR wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:53 pm
I am dismayed that the Danes have chosen this path. Where did we get the idea that people who share a government should also share values? America did fine accepting diversity. It is a Trump idea that people should share values
Isn't it "when you're in Rome......".

Denmark has developed a society well superior to any other worlwide. Are they required to sacrifice this on the altar of diversity ?
Denmark is probably entitled to act as they are in this matter, although the ECHR will likely have the final say.

That said, a couple of thoughts come to mind.

The first is that there is a certain contradiction in the idea that "a society well superior to any other worldwide" is so unable to cope with diversity. Could it be that the focus on failures in integration as a supposed cause for the violence and other issues of the ghettos is misplaced, and that the issues are the result of failures in the host society?

The second is that integration generally happens eventually, albeit on a timescale of generations. I'm not sure that trying to force the matter will speed the course of events.


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Re: Denmark

#10

Post by RoadScholar » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:20 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:01 pm
TollandRCR wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:53 pm
I am dismayed that the Danes have chosen this path. Where did we get the idea that people who share a government should also share values? America did fine accepting diversity. It is a Trump idea that people should share values
Denmark is within its rights. It has no obligation to become a diverisifed country if it decides otherwise. If it wants its residents to share its values, it has the right to do so.
...although it must be said that having a perfect lawful right to do something doesn’t mean it’s always the right thing to do. (c.f. The Merchant of Venice.)


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neeneko
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Re: Denmark

#11

Post by neeneko » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:37 pm

Carl von Ossietsky wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:06 pm
Denmark has developed a society well superior to any other worlwide. Are they required to sacrifice this on the altar of diversity ?
They are not looking all that superior right now.



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Re: Denmark

#12

Post by Till Eulenspiegel » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:38 am

neeneko wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:37 pm
Carl von Ossietsky wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:06 pm
Denmark has developed a society well superior to any other worlwide. Are they required to sacrifice this on the altar of diversity ?
They are not looking all that superior right now.
Well, not in Foot...


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Re: Denmark

#13

Post by RTH10260 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:03 am

Addie wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:40 pm
New York Times
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant 'Ghettos'

:snippity:
As a followup from a German language source, Denmark defines a "ghetto" for this issue as an area of more than 1000 residents that matches at least three of the following five criterias: high crime rate, high unemployment, low level of education (as compared to local standards, which will include Danish reading and writing) and a majority of non-western origin. Denmark has identified 22 areas that apply to this definition.

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Re: Denmark

#14

Post by Addie » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:44 am

Bloomberg
Danske CEO Resigns After $234 Billion Tied to Laundromat Scandal

Danske Bank A/S Chief Executive Officer Thomas Borgen will step down amid allegations his bank was at the center of a major European money laundering scandal with as much as $234 billion flowing through a tiny Estonian unit.

The laundromat case has shocked Denmark, a country generally associated with some of the world’s lowest levels of corruption and highest levels of transparency. Criminal complaints against Danske have so far suggested its Estonian unit was used to launder as much as $9.1 billion between 2007 and 2015, with the illicit funds stemming mostly from Russia. Official investigations are ongoing in Denmark and Estonia and Danish media reported last month that U.S. authorities are also looking at the case.

Danske said it can’t provide an accurate number for how much dirty money it may have laundered. But the bank’s $234 billion estimate of total flows through its Estonian unit -- a figure that’s almost nine times the Baltic nation’s gross domestic product -- raises major questions about how serious management was about preventing money laundering. ...

Danske is the latest in a string of big European banks to have been tainted by money laundering scandals, prompting authorities in the bloc to look into tougher measures. Deutsche Bank AG was fined almost $700 million last year for helping wealthy Russians move about $10 billion out of their country. ING Group NV earlier this month agreed to pay about $900 million to settle a laundering case.


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Re: Denmark

#15

Post by Addie » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:48 pm

New York Times
Where in the World Is Denmark’s $2 Billion? ...

This outpost of SKAT, as the I.R.S. in Denmark is known, seems an improbable setting for what the authorities call one of the great financial crimes in the country’s history. For three years, starting in 2012, so much money gushed from an office here that it was as though the state had sprung a gigantic leak.

Prosecutors in Copenhagen say it was an elaborate ruse, one that ultimately cost taxpayers more than $2 billion — a spectacular sum for Denmark, the equivalent of a $110 billion loss in the far larger American economy.

The country had fallen victim to a dubious financial maneuver at the intersection of the tax system and capital markets, a dizzyingly complex transaction known as a “cum-ex” trade.

The trade is focused on one of the dullest, most overlooked acts in any financial system — the request for refunds on taxes withheld on dividends. Under Danish law, the government automatically collects taxes on dividends paid out by companies to their shareholders. If the shareholders live in the United States, they are eligible for a refund on some or all of those taxes.

A tiny department in SKAT, run by one man, approved thousands of applications for refunds. Most of the applications were filed by self-directed pension plans in the United States, a type of retirement account for individuals.



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Re: Denmark

#16

Post by Mikedunford » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:05 pm

RTH10260 wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:03 am
Addie wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:40 pm
New York Times
In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant 'Ghettos'

:snippity:
As a followup from a German language source, Denmark defines a "ghetto" for this issue as an area of more than 1000 residents that matches at least three of the following five criterias: high crime rate, high unemployment, low level of education (as compared to local standards, which will include Danish reading and writing) and a majority of non-western origin. Denmark has identified 22 areas that apply to this definition.
The "non-western origin" requirement is probably going to be an issue if/when it gets to the ECtHR.


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Re: Denmark

#17

Post by RTH10260 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:04 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:05 pm
RTH10260 wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:03 am
Addie wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:40 pm
New York Times

As a followup from a German language source, Denmark defines a "ghetto" for this issue as an area of more than 1000 residents that matches at least three of the following five criterias: high crime rate, high unemployment, low level of education (as compared to local standards, which will include Danish reading and writing) and a majority of non-western origin. Denmark has identified 22 areas that apply to this definition.
The "non-western origin" requirement is probably going to be an issue if/when it gets to the ECtHR.
For an area designation i don't think ths will be a problem (of course IANAL), neither for enhanced policing as everyone will be under pressure to be law abiding. Critical point may be when someone of "non-western" designation gets asked to resettle.But then again asylum seekers and claimed refugees have lesser rights to start until final residence permits are approved. The targeted population is still free to find their next home as long they don't trigger another ghetto situation elsewhere.



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Re: Denmark

#18

Post by Sam the Centipede » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:07 pm

The ghetto plan does seem odd and I am surprised to see the Danes — who I always found tolerant and laid-back — engaging in such dubious endeavors, and, I think, with surprisingly broad political agreement.

The name of their "One Denmark" policy has an unfortunate ring to it in English which I suspect might be misleading. The stated aim is better described as "One Danish Society" (that is, with no parallel societal systems). That's seems broadly similar to what France has always aimed for; it's not necessarily as fascistic as it perhaps sounds to Anglophone liberals. (Mmm ... "not necessarily" is carrying a load there!)

Agree or disagree with the broad aim, one can certainly have qualms about the policy and program, the "ghetto package". For example, it seems reasonable to have the aspiration that all young children growing up in Denmark should be fluent in the Danish language early in their lives. So the ghetto package includes a provision that every one year old immigrant child should receive a compulsory 25 hours a week in an environment that would help their Danish language development, presumably a day-care center. Sounds fine ... but wait, there's that word "compulsory"! If the parents refuse or do not bring the child to the venue, the social benefit payments for the child will be cancelled, which seems unpleasantly harsh.

For housing, they do seem to be polishing the jackboots! The plans appear to include provisions to forcibly rehouse immigrants from public housing in ghetto areas, and to force public housing bodies to divest some of their stock either into private ownership or into rubble to bring this about, if necessary. That had a stench of apartheid with a whiff of ethnic cleansing. Not good!

Health warning: I'm not fully up to speed on this issue, so please correct any misstatements if you know better.

.



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Re: Denmark

#19

Post by RTH10260 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:16 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:07 pm
The ghetto plan does seem odd and I am surprised to see the Danes — who I always found tolerant and laid-back — engaging in such dubious endeavors, and, I think, with surprisingly broad political agreement.

:snippity:

Health warning: I'm not fully up to speed on this issue, so please correct any misstatements if you know better.

.
Just pointing back to this article you may or may not have read: viewtopic.php?p=1033082#p1010328

The ghetto situation is a recent development with the influx of migrants under various titles. One of the major issues is criminality emanating from these areas. Like youths setting up roadblocks and requesting "tolls" or else damaging vehicles. I did not reread the posted article, I remember there was a companion article highlighting the issues.



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Re: Denmark

#20

Post by Sam the Centipede » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:00 am

Thanks RTH, I will go back to find more of the background. I was looking at recent articles in Jyllansposten which were policy-oriented. I think I recall headlines of problems in Odense a while back but I never paid attention to them.

That certainly seems more plausible and a social policy change is a better response that simply flooding the area with riot police or similar brutal action.



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Re: Denmark

#21

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:45 am

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:07 pm
For housing, they do seem to be polishing the jackboots! The plans appear to include provisions to forcibly rehouse immigrants from public housing in ghetto areas, and to force public housing bodies to divest some of their stock either into private ownership or into rubble to bring this about, if necessary. That had a stench of apartheid with a whiff of ethnic cleansing. Not good!
Actually, those proposals have been part of the liberal agenda to clean up ghettos and improve the lot of the very poor here in the US. Instead of concentrating the very poor in rundown neighborhoods, it's thought to be better to distribute them more evenly throughout a region. And yes, part of the rationale behind it is social and cultural: to expose them to middle class expectations in hopes that they will absorb and adopt some of those expectations. Such as getting good grades, developing the habit of getting up/showing up on time, and most importantly, having fewer malcontents as neighbors and peers. Because peer pressure is a thing, and better for society to have that pressure to conform to prevailing expectations , instead of to the more limited expectations within the poorest neighborhoods: join a gang, drop out of school, sell drugs for a living.

And the benefit to the very poor citizens is that they get to live in a safer area and are not as stigmatized as when they're concentrated within a rundown, low-income neighborhood.



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Re: Denmark

#22

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:01 am

The main ECHR issue I see with Denmark's approach is the use of majority non-Western ethnicity as one of the criteria used to define ghettos. I think the use of a "meets 3 from this list" approach worsens the discriminatory effects of this. In effect, a majority-Western neighborhood must suffer from 3 negative characteristics to be a ghetto; a majority-non-Western neighborhood need only suffer from 2 negative effects to receive the same treatment.

I think that's an Article 14 issue - in particular, while the ECtHR has typically been fairly liberal with regard to the national policies exceptions under Article 8.2, I don't think it's ever had to address an issue where national origin is explicitly being used in such a way. And the anti-discrimination language of Article 14 seems to strongly suggest that association with a national minority is inadmissible as an explicit basis for the Article 8 policy exception.

If they had come up with a justification that was neutral as to origin on its face, and found purely economic or social characteristics for the definition, I think the ECtHR jurisprudence would clearly been in Denmark's favor. And I think that would have been true even if the effect was to label all, and only all, ethnic minority neighborhoods "ghettos." But making majority occupation of an area by a national minority an explicitly negative characteristic for a neighborhood may be a step too far for the ECtHR - particularly given the widespread critiques of their approach in cases like the French ban on face coverings.


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