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TheEuropean
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#51

Post by TheEuropean » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:31 am



Sam, I know Greece and the Greek personally for more than 30 years now. A very good friend of mine has constructed a house on one of the Islands. When he tells his stories you do not know if you should laugh or cry.Lord Byron lost his life fighting for Greek liberty. For him the only trustworthy people in this war were the adversaries - the Turks. You can read more in a biography by André Maurois:https://archive.org/details/ByronThe Greeks have not changed for the last 200 years.For another face of the Greeks you  may watch the famous movie "Zorba the Greek", made from a novel by Greek writer Nikos Kazantzakis. Quite typical is the episode where a father kills a young widow as revenge for his son´s suicide - she had refused the junior. Always seek the fault in others.



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#52

Post by TheEuropean » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:37 pm



Tsipras has earned his punishmentThe Greek people are enduring the consequences of their prime minister’s childish misbehaviour http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/1f036eb8 ... z3eku9oHLQ



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#53

Post by esseff44 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:30 pm



Corruption is endemic everywhere. It varies in how much is tolerated and which forms are tolerated.  In China, it is recognized that how well you do depends on who you know and how much they can help you based on your relationship from the lowest levels to the highest.  If your connection is caught and loses his clout, you are also out of luck as are his/her connections. It has a ripple effect.  They execute businessmen if they catch them at certain types of corruption such as the baby formula poisoning. or cheating the government by substituting low quality building materials in public buildings.  When they had a major earthquake and hundreds of children were killed because cheating on the building of schools, there was a near riot by the parents losing their 'one child.' When I first went to Viet Nam in 1966, one of the first things I saw leaving the airport were five bodies put up for exhibition.  They were Chinese merchants who had cornered the market on rice and had caused an artificial shortage driving the price up beyond the means of the average person.  That kind of corruption was not tolerated. There are sometimes I waver on the death penalty and that's one of them.In the US, we tolerate large scale corruption, corporate giant corruption.  We (as a country) even admire the corporate raiders that rob pension funds and wreck the economy of entire communities by selling off the assets and sending the jobs overseas. We worship the god of asset protection when the assets reach a certain level and reduce the taxes on unearned income while raising taxes on earned income.  It's all done with highly compensated attorneys specializing in getting the laws changed to favor their clients.  They write the legislation and their clients have paid off the Congress members to pass it into law.  Now, Citizens United has taken it a step further by protecting the 'free speech' of vast wealth  while now litigating to take away the balancing speech of labor unions to put our democratic process evem more out of balance in favor of the wealthiest and in effect disenfranchising everyone else.ETA:This is not unlike the situation of the Great Depression when the small farmers were in debt to the banks which were folding in rapid succession calling in the loans and taking the farms.  My paternal was one of those that lost their only means of survival except to become sharecroppers.  My maternal grandfather managed to hang own to his and provided work and shelter for a large number of people less fortunate.  He was also in charge of the relief programs that FDR had to fight for in the courts and in Congress.  It was also a small town lawyer who was our representative in Congress, Henry B. Steagall that introduced the legislation for the FHA loans and also the banking reforms to prevent another meltdown.  He teamed with Senator Glass and they passed the regulations to prevent the banks from using the funds of their depositors to gamble with in the stock market. We know what happened when our corrupt legislators gutted those regulations in spite of the protests of people like me as well as the smarter, wiser economists who warned them of the financial risks they imposing on the country.  We were ignored in favor of the big.  too big to fail, bankers.  Still, Congress has been dragging their collective feet and neglecting to revive those protections leaving us wide open to another meltdown.  Leaving town and letting the charter of the ExportiImport Bank expire is another example of their negligence to consider the welfare of the people they represent.Where is the outrage?So, now the Germans are upset about the Greek style of corruption.  Angela Merkle promised the Germans their economy would be run the way a Swabian housewife runs her household.  If you can't afford to pay for it, you do without until you can.  That went over well in Swabia just like it did here in our rural areas. What works in Germany and the Northern European countries does not work in Greece, Turkey, Italy and Spain.  Their subscribe to  different sest of moral values  Attitudes towards money and what you have to do to get it are different.  How those values are enforced are different.  What would cause a German to foam at the mouth as not keep in strict compliance with a law reflecting a sense of order and cleanliness would be shrugged off in the warmer climes where people have not had to work as hard to produce food and shelter.  This is a division I have noted all around the globe.  Cold climate people and temperate climate people and tropical climate people have different cultures based on how much effort they have to put into basic survival.  All their cultural values are derivative of these differences as are their priorities. So, the warm climate people are 'lazy' by  the standards of northerners and they should not be rewarded for their laziness.  On the other side, the northerners are cold, hard-hearted exploiters who come to enjoy all the sunshine, warmth, variety of food and a less stressful atmosphere. The Germans want the Greeks to behave like Germans but when they flock to places like Mykonos to get away from the misery of dark, cold short days, they enjoy the benefits of the Greeks behaving like Greeks.  Naturally, the Greeks are going to feel like they are being treated like servants.  In the financial situation, they are going to feel like the Northerners disrespect them and no body likes that.  The Germans are the cruel bankers who have them over the barrel much the way the the banks here had the small homeowners over a barrel after offering them all kinds of enticements to take out mortgages and use their equity as an ATM.  We know how that turned out.  Then the banks claimed that they mortgagees were to blame for taking out loans they could not pay back.  They could not forgive loans of extend them or any of the things that would allow them a chance to recover  because of that setting a bad example for the future.  They resurrected a phrase: moral hazards.  The big bankers could not allow compassion and nobless oblige enter the discussion because of the moral hazards.That's how I see the situation of the EU at the present time.  So, if the EU is going to insist on keeping its collective foot on the necks of the Greeks, some other group  of lenders will probably intercede to bail them out.  If not, the vultures will flock to feast on the carnage.ETA:This is not unlike the situation of the Great Depression when the small farmers were in debt to the banks which were folding in rapid succession calling in the loans and taking the farms.  My paternal was one of those that lost their only means of survival except to become sharecroppers.  My maternal grandfather managed to hang own to his and provided work and shelter for a large number of people less fortunate.  He was also in charge of the relief programs that FDR had to fight for in the courts and in Congress.  It was also a small town lawyer who was our representative in Congress, Henry B. Steagall that introduced the legislation for the FHA loans and also the banking reforms to prevent another meltdown.  He teamed with Senator Glass and they passed the regulations to prevent the banks from using the funds of their depositors to gamble with in the stock market. We know what happened when our corrupt legislators gutted those regulations in spite of the protests of people like me as well as the smarter, wiser economists who warned them of the financial risks they imposing on the country.  We were ignored in favor of the big.  too big to fail, bankers.  Still, Congress has been dragging their collective feet and neglecting to revive those protections leaving us wide open to another meltdown.  Leaving town and letting the charter of the ExportiImport Bank expire is another example of their negligence to consider the welfare of the people they represent.Where is the outrage? 



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TheEuropean
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#54

Post by TheEuropean » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:54 pm



The fiercest enemies of Greek politics are those European countries who successfully had their turnaround -  lreland, Spain, Portugal, and the poor countries in the East like the Baltics. Greece wants alimony and do nothing for it.



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#55

Post by esseff44 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:40 pm







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#56

Post by esseff44 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:07 pm



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/case-gre ... e.htmlThis report gives a more balanced view of the crisis and an additional arguments for debt relief and a realistic restructuring of the debt.  The creditors are doing no one a favor by continuing to put the country into a deeper hole and tightening the noose around the neck of the Greek government.   They apparently want the government to fall which will be the most likely result if the Greeks do not accept the terms of the old offers which have expired.What will the vote mean anyway?  Only that the voters are unhappy with the governments past and present.. It makes no sense. These creditors need to be dealt with the same way the  Chinese do with monopolists who corner the market in rice or poison the babies or sell fake drugs not caring how many people suffer or die as a result.  Better yet they should be put on a diet of gruel and water for the rest of their natural lives.



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#57

Post by Sam the Centipede » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:01 am



The fiercest enemies of Greek politics are those European countries who successfully had their turnaround -  lreland, Spain, Portugal, and the poor countries in the East like the Baltics. Greece wants alimony and do nothing for it.Spain and Portugal have not yet turned around, have they? They are just suffering and may collapse yet, especially if Greece goes belly-up and financiers attack. Ireland is coming out of recession of course. The Baltic countries had their problems earlier, and I don't know how fair it is to compare them (I'm not saying it isn't, I don't know).Regardless of the failings of Greek politics (of which there are clearly many), it cannot be good to simply push the economy of Greece into ruin. I am not comfortable with hurting the people of the country purely because their leaders are so awful. I don't like the IMF approach, which in medical terms would consist of strangling the patient to prevent them coughing.I was unimpressed to hear that former Prime Ministers Karamanlis and (I've forgotten the other name) were belly-aching about how badly Tsipras is handling this. I don't think any former leader of Greece has any right to criticize as they are the ones who led the country into the mess it's in.The Eurocrats in Brussels running the European Union as the Greater Belgian Empire were arrogant and stupid enough to (a) create the euro just to satisfy their megalomaniac urges without understanding the inherent dangers of monetary union with fiscal (taxation) union, which was always going to be very, very dangerous, and (b) not to monitor Greece and others' national banks to ensure that they weren't going to cause problems. The Greek governments of the past are to blame, but so are the Brussels eurocrats and the national heads who allowed this farce to develop.If Greece had been on the drachma still, that currency would have fallen, creating some local temporary hardship, but making imports more expensive (so local goods more attractive), their exports more attractive, tourism more attractive, and the economy would have naturally re-balanced. This is the fault of those who created the euro against sane advice.      



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#58

Post by TheEuropean » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:53 am



No, my conclusion is based on a lot of bits and pieces.



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#59

Post by Addie » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:06 pm



Reutershttp://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Greeks-defy ... dum-408080 Greeks defy Europe with overwhelming 'No' to bailout referendum  ATHENS - Greeks voted by a large margin to reject the austerity terms of an aid package from international creditors, an official projection of the final result of Sunday's referendum showed."The assessment of Singular Logic is that the result in favour of 'No' will exceed 61 percent," an official from Singular Logic, which processes the results for the interior ministry said.Only 39 percent were estimated to have voted in favour.The result would hand a big victory to Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, who urged voters to say 'No' to an aid package he called a national "humiliation" and an "ultimatum" from creditors.


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#60

Post by tek » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:37 pm



I don't think this referendum helped at all, and I don't think it illuminates the problem at all.My feeling is that the Greek political leaders did not do their jobs.OK.. I get it..  I understand that the EU seems to like "austerity" as the answer to all financial woes. I'm no economist (though one did live across the street for several years), but history seems to show that blanket austerity never solves "the problem" ..But also: you can't just keep handing out blank checks. Structural reforms have to happen. Those are never painless.From the outside, the impression I get is that the Greek politicians are trying to cast this as the big bad EU dropping the hammer on poor little Greece.. which doesn't move the solution forward..I really cannot stand politicians that won't do the work, and then whine when things go bad because of the things they didn't do.


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#61

Post by Addie » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:25 pm



AFPhttp://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/no-se ... 7561Greece 'No' in referendum sends euro into tailspin ... Senior eurozone officials were to hold talks on Monday to discuss the result, a European source told AFP.France's President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel were to meet in Paris the same day to assess the result, the French presidency said. Hollande also spoke with Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras by telephone late Sunday.Merkel's deputy chancellor, German Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel, said Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had "torn down bridges" between his country and Europe with the vote.New negotiations on a bailout were now "difficult to imagine," he told the Tagesspiegel newspaper.The euro crashed 1.6 percent in the wake of the referendum, to $1.0963, in electronic trading before Asian markets opened. 


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#62

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:30 pm



The DJI will take a 350-500 point hit tomorrow. After Greece is kicked out of the Eurozone things will return pretty much to normal. And Greece will remain a third or fourth world economy until it agrees to tax its rich people.



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#63

Post by esseff44 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:19 pm



The DJI will take a 350-500 point hit tomorrow. After Greece is kicked out of the Eurozone things will return pretty much to normal. And Greece will remain a third or fourth world economy until it agrees to tax its rich people.You are probably right about an initial big drop in the DJI and other indexes as well, but it's just a buying opportunity.  Besides, most of the Greek troubles were already baked in.  The bigger worry is what's happening with the recent 30% in the value of the Chinese market.  That's  not been baked in.  So, the volatility will be increasing   Interesting times ahead, hang on to your oars as we go crashing through the rapids.



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#64

Post by ZekeB » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:40 pm



Another Venezuela. Why tell your people what they need to hear at the risk of getting yourself kicked out of office when you can just blame another country for your problems? 


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#65

Post by esseff44 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:46 pm



Another Venezuela. Why tell your people what they need to hear at the risk of getting yourself kicked out of office when you can just blame another country for your problems? I don't think the situations are comparable.  Not even close.http://finance.yahoo.com/news/euro-stoc ... 362.htmlIn other news, China has taken measures to pervent a stock market crash.  It' s one of the advantages of a command economy with the caveat that the people who are doing the commanding give a hoot and know what they are doing.   But then, the same thing can be said of a market economy, eh?http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers ... conomy.asp



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#66

Post by ZekeB » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:57 pm



The DJI will take a 350-500 point hit tomorrow. After Greece is kicked out of the Eurozone things will return pretty much to normal. And Greece will remain a third or fourth world economy until it agrees to tax its rich people.But but but... doesn't the Republican model for fixing our economy include fewer taxes for the rich?  Those rich Greeks should be investing in their economy.  Creating jobs and resulting in trickle-down wealth.  Or not.  It's working that way in Kansas under a Republican plan, isn't it? 


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#67

Post by vic » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:10 am



The DJI will take a 350-500 point hit tomorrow. After Greece is kicked out of the Eurozone things will return pretty much to normal. And Greece will remain a third or fourth world economy until it agrees to tax its rich people.But but but... doesn't the Republican model for fixing our economy include fewer taxes for the rich?  Those rich Greeks should be investing in their economy.  Creating jobs and resulting in trickle-down wealth.  Or not.  It's working that way in Kansas under a Republican plan, isn't it? But Zeke, you can't compare rich foreigners to our native billionaires! Just look at Mr Trump - he's running for president, and I heard somewhere that government service is more important than money. And Mr Trump even has all of his Trump Collection clothes manufactured right here in in a country right next to the United States.



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#68

Post by esseff44 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:58 am




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#69

Post by Lani » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:20 am



The data relied upon hasn't been released yet.  Apparently, emphasis was given to a study of rats feed glyphosate, but the methodology used isn't publicly available at the time.  There's a discussion here:http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... to-cancer/


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#70

Post by SueDB » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:56 am



Usually when you give a couple of gallons of Round up to a mouse ... doo doo happens. 


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#71

Post by SueDB » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:59 am



The 60's tests to see what effect hash would have on a a lab animal - It's like give the little thing a piece of hash as big as a tabletop then expect it to run on the wheel....Rat to tester - "F*ck you, you run on the damn wheel!"  Gimme speed, then I'll run on the wheel....


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#72

Post by esseff44 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:34 pm



The DJI will take a 350-500 point hit tomorrow. After Greece is kicked out of the Eurozone things will return pretty much to normal. And Greece will remain a third or fourth world economy until it agrees to tax its rich people.DJI stayed within a 1% drop as did the other major indexing closing between .26% and .39% loss.  Not any worse that other recent days.  China is a much bigger looming threat to the markets.  You gotta watch out for those moral hazards hiding behind every good deed and humanitarian gesture.



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Re: European Union

#73

Post by Addie » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:29 am

LA Times
Divisive far-left lawmaker Jeremy Corbyn wins U.K.'s Labor Party election

Veteran left-wing politician Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader of the Labor Party on Saturday in a landslide victory.

Corbyn secured 59.5 percent of the vote despite entering the leadership race as a 500-1 outsider.

He decisively beat off competition from three other Labor Party colleagues with a campaign that called for a fairer, more just and more tolerant society.

“Let us be a force for change in the world, a force for humanity in the world, a force for peace in the world,” he said during his acceptance speech. “And a force that recognizes we cannot go on like this with grotesque levels of global inequality, grotesque threats to our environment all ’round the world, without the rich and powerful governments stepping up to the plate to make sure our world becomes safer and better.”


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Re: European Union

#74

Post by Family Liberty Patriot » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:32 pm

"... a campaign that called for a fairer, more just and more tolerant society."

HOW VERY FUCKING DARE HE.
I can see why he's called "divisive."


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Re: European Union

#75

Post by Addie » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:42 pm

I know! I had the same reaction. :?
Family Liberty Patriot wrote:"... a campaign that called for a fairer, more just and more tolerant society."

HOW VERY FUCKING DARE HE.
I can see why he's called "divisive."


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