Israel

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Kendra
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Re: Israel

#426

Post by Kendra » Mon May 14, 2018 10:35 am

I am going to be sick. I can't recall who it was I listened to earlier, but it looks like the Ambassador above, and he was talking about Lincoln and him expressing his desire to go to Israel to his wife on the night of his death. :?: :?: Is this story true or a myth :?: :?:

True or not, it got dragged out today and then turned into another great Republican... :sick:



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Re: Israel

#427

Post by Volkonski » Mon May 14, 2018 10:44 am

Lincoln probably did want to visit Jerusalem. Trips to the Holy Land were popular amongst Americans who could afford it in the mid-19ty Century. See Mark Twain's “The Innocents Abroad" for an account of his visit there.

http://www.aish.com/jw/j/Lincolns-Secre ... Visit.html
William H. Seward served as President Abraham Lincoln's Secretary of State. On the night of Lincoln's assassination, Seward was attacked in his home by one of Booth's co-conspirators and was seriously wounded.

But he survived, and in 1871 traveled the world and visited Jerusalem where he visited the "Wailing Wall" and participated in Friday night services, apparently at the Hurva synagogue.

His earlier visit to Jerusalem 1859 may have sparked an interest in President Lincoln to visit the Holy Land, evidenced in Mary Todd Lincoln's statement to the pastor presiding at Lincoln's funeral that her husband "wanted to visit the Holy Land and… was saying there was no city he so much desired to see as Jerusalem."
Also see-

"Lincoln and the Jews: A History"



A review of that book here.

http://time.com/3753016/lincoln-and-the-jews/


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Kendra
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Re: Israel

#428

Post by Kendra » Mon May 14, 2018 10:47 am

Thanks V. Still, I resent the comparisons between Lincoln and Trump. :madguy:



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Re: Israel

#429

Post by Carl von Ossietsky » Mon May 14, 2018 1:56 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -civilians
It is inexcusable for soldiers of a military, especially those under democratic civilian control, to shoot and kill protesters, almost all of whom were unarmed, and who pose no credible threat. Yet at the boundary between Gaza and Israel today Israeli soldiers seem to have done just that. It should make Israelis quail that demonstrators were sprayed with live ammunition with apparent impunity. There were dozens of deaths and hundreds of maimings among the Palestinians who had marched to the border to make a point about their right to return to their ancestral homes. Israel’s army evinced no shame in committing what looks like a war crime. These are serious accusations. Yet they were greeted with little more than a shrug. By blockading Gaza, Israel imprisoned 2 million people behind barbed wire and military towers. Israel treated the violence as a jailer might a prison riot: a tragic fault of the inmates.

This is a dangerous mindset for Israelis to embrace. Yet they have done so because the extreme right in Israel, and most of the present government ministers, nurture the idea that Israel can, through its vastly superior military force, end the national aspirations of the Palestinians. These politicians take succour from US president Donald Trump, who has made good on his promise to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Today Mr Trump’s ambassador, who gave money to Jewish far-right groups in Israel, opened his nation’s new embassy in Jerusalem. This is a reckless and provocative step that will harm the prospects for peace. Like the issue of refugees, settlements and borders, the status of Jerusalem is unfinished business. No state is internationally recognised as having sovereignty over Jerusalem. Its status was meant to be determined through negotiations.
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In siding with Israel Mr Trump signalled the end of any pretence that his administration might be an honest broker in the conflict. Any peace talks overseen by Mr Trump’s team are likely to fail before they begin. The US president will learn what happens when the facts he has created on the ground collide with reality. What will happen to the 300,000 Palestinians living in east Jerusalem? Are they all to be herded into enclaves and deprived of their human rights, their land confiscated? Will this be done because of the “truth, peace and justice” that Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel believed in as he welcomed the US ambassador to Jerusalem? Mr Trump and Mr Netanyahu have galvanised a people who had been steeped in despair.

In taking Jerusalem off the table, the only inviolable demand Palestinians feel they have left is the right of return. Palestinians see the flight or expulsion of refugees at the time of the creation of Israel 70 years ago this week as their catastrophe or nakba. Israelis retort that implementation of the right of return is incompatible with the survival of a democratic Jewish majority state. The issue is now on the lips of every Palestinian. The conflict in the Holy Land is not a zero-sum game, where there is just one winner. The opposite is more likely to be true. Either both will fail – and continue with one civilian population humiliating and terrorising the other. Or they find a way to live side by side in two states, one that affords each people their own independence and security. If happily such an outcome was achieved, it would make sense for west Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel and east Jerusalem to be the Palestinian capital. This is obvious to everyone but Mr Trump and Mr Netanyahu, who instead have capitulated to a vision of brutal domination over a benighted people.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/05 ... rJumbo.jpg


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Re: Israel

#430

Post by TollandRCR » Mon May 14, 2018 2:07 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:17 am
On moral clarity:

Israeli troops kill dozens of Palestinians in protests as embassy opens in Jerusalem

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ve-updates
Does the Israeli military now have only one way to deal with violent protestors: shoot to kill? I can imagine that having become the policy or practice under Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman. I detest both of these men and consider them to be existential threats to Israel.

The costs of such a policy or practice will be high for Israel. European and American liberals and human rights advocates will become even less sympathetic to Israel. Arab and Muslim states that have been considering reconciliation with Israel will back off in disgust. Many American Jews will be disturbed. International organizations will again seem to favor only one side in the conflict.

This policy or practice, if it exists as seems to be the case, is deeply stupid as well as unworthy of the Israel we have long known.

It simply will not work to defend this policy or practice by claiming that those whom it horrifies are anti-Semitic. There is no anti-Semitism in criticisms of Israeli brutality.


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Re: Israel

#431

Post by Carl von Ossietsky » Mon May 14, 2018 2:12 pm

No. It's not shoot to kill. They killed only dozens and wounded about 1600. If I would lose a limb like that I know what I would be doing.


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Re: Israel

#432

Post by Carl von Ossietsky » Mon May 14, 2018 2:26 pm

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.6073520
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Tuesday he has not seen a U.S. peace plan for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Several Israeli media outlets have recently reported the alleged intent of President Donald Trump's administration is to present their Israeli-Palestinian peace plan immediately after the opening of the American embassy in Jerusalem on May 14.

According to the reports – some attributed to Israel's envoy to the UN, Danny Danon, others to Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman following his visit to Washington – the White House team headed by envoy Jason Greenblatt is currently finalizing its work ahead of an initial presentation to both sides.

When asked about these reports on Tuesday while briefing reporters in Larnaca airport in Cyprus, Netanyahu said he "hasn't seen" the aforementioned plan.

In March, a senior White House official told Haaretz the administration was still working on the plan. Yet it has no deadline for its publication. Among the considerations expected to affect the release date are the political climate in Israel, the security status in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and responses in the Arab world to Trump's decision to withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal.

The administration still hopes to convince the Palestinian to return to the peace process, but does not rule out the possibility of publishing the plan without direct Palestinian involvement.


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Re: Israel

#433

Post by RVInit » Mon May 14, 2018 3:10 pm

Oh, I'm pretty sure we can just about guess how one-sided any Trump administration "peace plan" would be.


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Re: Israel

#434

Post by TollandRCR » Mon May 14, 2018 3:12 pm

Haaretz:

“Jerusalem Embassy and Gaza Protests: 55 Palestinians Killed by Israeli Gunfire at Border. Over 2238 wounded, over 770 from live gunfire ■ 40,000 protesting at border ■ Israeli army bombs seven Hamas targets, readies for possible rocket fire from the Strip ■ U.S. embassy officially opens in Jerusalem”

Note that word “bombs.” The Israeli Air Force bombed seven Hamas locations.

South Africa has recalled its ambassador to Israel because of the killings in Gaza. I hope other countries will similarly show their revulsion. Israel might respond to international isolation. More likely, Israelis might respond and depose the Netanyahu government.

Netanyahu says that Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas attacks. I agree, but does it have to be acts of uwar? The Watts riots come close to this in the American experience: 34 dead, 23 by law enforcement or Army National Guard, lasting shame, impoverished and dangerous neighborhood remaining.

The French counsel discernment and restraint in the use of force that must be strictly proportionate. Agreed.

“Israeli forces faced accusations of committing war crimes and using "disproportionate force" against Palestinian demonstrators in Gaza on Monday on the deadliest day in the enclave since “Great March of Return” protests began in March.

“Amnesty International condemned the use of "excessive force" by Israeli forces on Monday and said in some instances they appeared to be "committing what appear to be willful killings constituting war crimes".

“Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, said "those responsible for outrageous human rights violations must be held to account," while Human Rights Watch described the killings as a "bloodbath".”

The celebration of the opening of the embassy was held during the eeek of the nakba, the catastrophe. It would not have been possible to pick more sensitive dates for the celebration. It was a thumb in the eye of the Palestinian people to schedule it for now. Trump’s cruelty on display?


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Israel

#435

Post by Carl von Ossietsky » Mon May 14, 2018 3:15 pm

No, Trump knows nothing about this conflict.


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Re: Israel

#436

Post by Kendra » Mon May 14, 2018 3:19 pm

I listened to today's WH press briefing. B team, Sarah had the day off, or too chicken? When asked for WH position on shooting of protesters answer was the same - Hamas was to blame.



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Re: Israel

#437

Post by neeneko » Mon May 14, 2018 3:19 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:12 pm
The celebration of the opening of the embassy was held during the eeek of the nakba, the catastrophe. It would not have been possible to pick more sensitive dates for the celebration. It was a thumb in the eye of the Palestinian people to schedule it for now. Trump’s cruelty on display?
Well, they could have picked tomorrow,Nakba Day.

Having a day of celebration for one side and a day of remembrance for the other right next to each other on the calendar... ugh.



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Re: Israel

#438

Post by TollandRCR » Mon May 14, 2018 4:24 pm

American Friends Service Committee:

Hold Israel Accountable for Killing Palestinian Protesters Tens of thousands of Palestinians are taking part in a sustained protest called the Great Return March. Israel has responded to this nonviolent protest through a brutal show of force, opening fire on protesters Hold and deploying tear gas by drones, killing at least 105 Palestinians and leaving thousands wounded.

Disturbing videos show Israeli forces shooting unarmed Palestinians, including people shot in the back and while praying.

Tell Congress to investigate and hold Israel accountable for these actions.


I think the AFSC is counting all recent killings in Gaza, not just those of today’s massacre.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Israel

#439

Post by Dr. Caligari » Mon May 14, 2018 4:36 pm

Having a day of celebration for one side and a day of remembrance for the other right next to each other on the calendar... ugh.
Both days commemorate the same event-- the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. So they will always be in close proximity (not necessarily the exact same day, because the Jewish and Moslem calendars are somewhat different).


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Re: Israel

#440

Post by TollandRCR » Mon May 14, 2018 4:39 pm

The best possible outcome of today’s massacre would be for the Israeli people to hold Netanyahu and his right-wing government responsible and for the Knesset to turn them out onto the streets. The disappearance of Avigdor Lieberman is greatly to be desired. I believe him to be opposed to democracy and interested only in the views and welfare of Russian immigrants. Old time TFB members will remember my suspicion that OrlY Taitz was doing Lieberman’s will.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Israel

#441

Post by Flatpointhigh » Mon May 14, 2018 5:28 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:39 pm
The best possible outcome of today’s massacre would be for the Israeli people to hold Netanyahu and his right-wing government responsible and for the Knesset to turn them out onto the streets. The disappearance of Avigdor Lieberman is greatly to be desired. I believe him to be opposed to democracy and interested only in the views and welfare of Russian immigrants. Old time TFB members will remember my suspicion that OrlY Taitz was doing Lieberman’s will.
considering Russia is Iran's ally in the region, I have no doubt. I also beleive that Russia is also stirring the Hamas shitpot as well. 3-minutes hate is a good way to distract from the absolute corruption of the Hamas "government". Russia play s the desabilization game quite well



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Re: Israel

#442

Post by RTH10260 » Mon May 14, 2018 7:05 pm

Mitt Romney calls pastor who delivered blessing at Jerusalem embassy opening 'religious bigot'
By LOUIS NELSON 05/14/2018 06:59 AM EDT Updated 05/14/2018 09:44 AM EDT

The evangelical pastor delivering a blessing at Monday’s opening of the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem is a “religious bigot” who is unworthy of such an honorary role, Utah Senate hopeful Mitt Romney wrote on Twitter Sunday night.

“Robert Jeffress says ‘you can’t be saved by being a Jew,’ and ‘Mormonism is a heresy from the pit of hell,’” Romney, who is Mormon, wrote on Twitter Sunday night. “He’s said the same about Islam. Such a religious bigot should not be giving the prayer that opens the United States Embassy in Jerusalem.”

Dallas pastor Jeffress, who leads Dallas’s First Baptist Church and is also a member of President Donald Trump’s evangelical adviser board, is well-known for sharply critical statements on faiths other than his own, including labeling the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints a “cult.”

Jeffress, on his church’s website, has also written that “Islam is a false religion” and that “if you sincerely follow the tenets of Islam, then you will end up in hell when you die.”

The controversial pastor defended his positions on Twitter as based in deeply held faith rather than bigotry.


https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/ ... lem-584441



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Re: Israel

#443

Post by RTH10260 » Mon May 14, 2018 7:07 pm

Trump’s Jerusalem embassy opening marred by deadly clashes in Gaza
The celebration created a jarring contrast with footage of the demonstrations that left dozens dead.

By LOUIS NELSON 05/14/2018 10:00 AM EDT Updated 05/14/2018 04:38 PM EDT
President Donald Trump called for peace in the Middle East on Monday as the U.S. opened its embassy in Jerusalem while Israeli soldiers battled protesting Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, killing more than 50 and wounding more than a thousand others.

The images made for jarring split screens beamed worldwide, with U.S. officials, including Trump’s daughter and adviser Ivanka, cheering during the grand, historic ceremony held as smoke filled the air in nearby Gaza. The scenes offered a glimpse of how divisive Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital has been, and they bode poorly for his plans to offer a peace proposal to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/ ... nce-584449



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Re: Israel

#444

Post by TollandRCR » Mon May 14, 2018 8:24 pm

There was also a protest against the opening of the embassy by some of Jerusalem’s ultra-orthodox.


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Re: Israel

#445

Post by ZekeB » Mon May 14, 2018 8:55 pm

Carl von Ossietsky wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 2:12 pm
No. It's not shoot to kill. They killed only dozens and wounded about 1600. If I would lose a limb like that I know what I would be doing.
I'd say it's almost impossible to have a kill/wounded ratio that low even if using extraordinary means.


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Re: Israel

#446

Post by Suranis » Mon May 14, 2018 11:04 pm

In my view, the whole point of the Embassy Move was to create violence, and both sides are dancing with glee at the prospect of it. This serves the leadership of the Israeli right wing and Hamas very well.


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Re: Israel

#447

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Mon May 14, 2018 11:12 pm

Carl von Ossietsky wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:56 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -civilians
:snippity: ... who had marched to the border to make a point about their right to return to their ancestral homes. :snippity:
That's not entirely correct. "... their alleged "right" to return to their ancestral home" has not been recognized by the parties who count. And they did not simply march to the border. There's a bit more going on there than a march.
By blockading Gaza, Israel imprisoned 2 million people behind barbed wire and military towers. Israel treated the violence as a jailer might a prison riot: a tragic fault of the inmates.
And the alternative is to do what? Allow the Hamas-directed fanatical "inmates" to continue to cross over the border and inflict whatever damage they could against Israeli people?
:snippity: ... the status of Jerusalem is unfinished business. :snippity:
Sorry, that's a too-long-held myth. Jerusalem is the capital of the nation of Israel. There is nothing stopping Palestine from establishing a capital - if that's what they wanted. But that's not what they want. They want to do away with the nation of Israel and for the radicals in charge, nothing else will do.
:snippity: Mr Trump and Mr Netanyahu have galvanised [sic] a people who had been steeped in despair.
Galvanized? More like Hamas has again fanned the dying embers. Why does the population willingly live in a fantasy world with a leadership that is so ignorant to reality that they encourage their people to throw themselves over the cliff instead of negotiating in good faith to establish what could be a viable Palestinian nation?
Either both will fail – and continue with one civilian population humiliating and terrorising [sic] the other. Or they find a way to live side by side in two states, one that affords each people their own independence and security. If happily such an outcome was achieved, it would make sense for west Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel and east Jerusalem to be the Palestinian capital.
Indeed that would be an ideal outcome. They could do that if the Palestinians would abandon the mythology that they can throw Israel into the abyss. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, both will not fail. Israel will not fail - Palestinian objectives have failed, and will continue to fail.

The two nations cannot live side by side in two states until the Palestinian leadership finally admits that Israel is going to be there under any realistic scenario and there's nothing they can do to make it go away.
This is obvious to everyone but Mr Trump and Mr Netanyahu, who instead have capitulated to a vision of brutal domination over a benighted people.
Nonsense. The "benighted people" will continue to be controlled until they abandon the goal of the destruction of the Jewish state.

As absurd and horrible as this condition is, if Palestinians want something different, they're going to need new leadership; they're being used as pawns in a deadly game of political posturing.



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Re: Israel

#448

Post by TollandRCR » Tue May 15, 2018 12:22 am

For 70 years Israel has been a pain and a threat to Palestinians. Palestinians have been a pain and a threat to Israel during these years. During Netanyahu's reign Israel has been a harsh master. We have no evidence for what Palestinians would do and say if the posture of Israel changed to acceptance.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Israel

#449

Post by TollandRCR » Wed May 16, 2018 11:56 am

Jared speech at the opening of the US embassyin Jerusalem

No content about how speech might be attained. No censure of Israeli actions such as West Bank settlements. Great applause at mention of Bolton: more applause at mention of Haley.


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Re: Israel

#450

Post by TollandRCR » Sun May 20, 2018 2:13 am

Washington Post All criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitic by Jill Jacobs May 20, 2018

I accessed this within the Washington Post app and cannot provide a direct URL.

Despite what some pro-Israel organizations would have us believe, not all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Like all countries, Israel has a duty to uphold international human rights laws and to protect the rights of those living under its control. One may protest the use of live fire on unarmed protesters, the closure of the Gaza border and the subsequent humanitarian crisis, the military occupation of the Palestinian territories, and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s attacks on democracy and incitement against human rights leaders without invoking anti-Semitic tropes. Such policies would be wrong in any country, whether carried out by Jews or other people.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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