Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

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SueDB
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Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#1

Post by SueDB » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:59 pm

One of the newer science and technology items coming up soon, will be self driving cars/trucks - vehicles.


Will these self driving systems end the great slaughter on America's roadways, improve travel time, greatly decrease the number/type of donated organs available for transplant etc .... Significantly increase safety and mobility

OR

Will the self driving cars cause a revolt due to American Testosterone's love of big cars, lots of speed, thrills, and institutionalized suicide???? Why it's just UnAmerican to tell an immature testicle that he can't do something.

discuss :-D


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#2

Post by Whip » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:05 pm

why is it assumed self driving cars will be infallible? especially considering they would have to be computer driven and what hackers can do.



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#3

Post by Dan1100 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:07 pm

I predict a couple of spectacular accidents killing multiple attractive young people (and the accompanying multi-million dollar products liability verdicts) will put the kibosh self-driving cars fairly soon.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#4

Post by SueDB » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:09 pm

Whip wrote:why is it assumed self driving cars will be infallible? especially considering they would have to be computer driven and what hackers can do.
It might be an advanced system with advanced security etc....hopefully - but you know the car manufactures - they for cheap shit.

You start with the ideal then in many cases have to work backwards until you get to reality. Then again - we don't know what kind of systems will be out there by the time these vehicles are ready for prime time.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#5

Post by SueDB » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:12 pm

Dan1100 wrote:I predict a couple of spectacular accidents killing multiple attractive young people (and the accompanying multi-million dollar products liability verdicts) will put the kibosh self-driving cars fairly soon.
As opposed to the couple of spectacular accident killing multiple attractive young people that we are enjoying now courtesy of texting and driving????

Aren't the car companies big enough to change the liability legislation with some very generous donations to congress critters???

As an aside each life is only worth $275.000 or so courtesy of the Ford Pinto liability cases. Car companies have been able to afford that handily. Why would that change?


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#6

Post by Dan1100 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:28 pm

SueDB wrote:
Dan1100 wrote:I predict a couple of spectacular accidents killing multiple attractive young people (and the accompanying multi-million dollar products liability verdicts) will put the kibosh self-driving cars fairly soon.
As opposed to the couple of spectacular accident killing multiple attractive young people that we are enjoying now courtesy of texting and driving????

Aren't the car companies big enough to change the liability legislation with some very generous donations to congress critters???

As an aside each life is only worth $275.000 or so courtesy of the Ford Pinto liability cases. Car companies have been able to afford that handily. Why would that change?
Product liability laws are by state, not federal. They might get some states to change but that isn't good enough.

Texting attractive young people killed themselves and others. In self-driving car accident, the victims were killed by General Motors, a deep pocket, unsympathetic defendant.

The Ford Pinto cases were a long time ago. Laws have changed since then and so have how juries behave. In many states, the calculation Ford made in the Pinto cases gets you slapped with huge punitive damages.

A self-driving car is going to be a tremendously complex machine that will fail spectacularly if one tiny component goes bad. They will have to be meticulously maintained. They may find an application in big cities for loaner cars, as ubers/taxis, or as a part of fleets owned by businesses but I just don't see them becoming mainstream in our lifetimes.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#7

Post by Notorial Dissent » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:41 pm

Considering that many/most of the newer computer operated cars can be hacked to varying degrees, and that some of the so called smart cars have security breaches in them you could drive a lorry through to the point that previous owners still have full access to them. I do not find computer driven trucks on the roadways a comforting thought, for all of the reasons mentioned above. Their primary vulnerability would be in that in order for them to function at all, they would have to have continuous contact with at the very least GPS, as well as their monitoring/traffic control systems to keep them on the road and going where they are supposed to be going. Regardless of claims, those systems will be vulnerable to hacking by someone who wants in badly enough.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#8

Post by tek » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:47 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2iRDYnzwtk

just sayin' :)


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#9

Post by Dan1100 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:56 pm

Notorial Dissent wrote:Considering that many/most of the newer computer operated cars can be hacked to varying degrees, and that some of the so called smart cars have security breaches in them you could drive a lorry through to the point that previous owners still have full access to them. I do not find computer driven trucks on the roadways a comforting thought, for all of the reasons mentioned above. Their primary vulnerability would be in that in order for them to function at all, they would have to have continuous contact with at the very least GPS, as well as their monitoring/traffic control systems to keep them on the road and going where they are supposed to be going. Regardless of claims, those systems will be vulnerable to hacking by someone who wants in badly enough.
I'm not worried about hacking so much as just failing.

How many stories have there been of idiots driving into rivers and lakes because they were blindly following their Google Maps? Those self driving cars are going to be following those same maps. Are those maps going to somehow magically become perfect and update immediately as conditions change?

After years of inspections and emissions testing, a not insignificant portion of the cars on the roads in mandatory emissions inspections areas are still driving happily along until their next inspection with their Check Engine Light on because some sensor has failed. Some sensor fails on a self driving car, it could very well veer off the road and crash.

There are a not insignificant number of people in states with no safety inspection that drive until their brake pads are used up and digging into their rotors (having ignored the squealing sound that is supposed to warn you your brake pads are almost used up). Are we really going to trust people to keep something as complex as a self-driving car maintained?

Then, of course, the software has to be perfect. There is a reason air traffic control isn't automated. It isn't because it can't be done, it is because it can't be done perfectly.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#10

Post by Whip » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:31 pm

tek wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2iRDYnzwtk

just sayin' :)

lip synching in 1956 = lol



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#11

Post by Whip » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:43 pm

SueDB wrote:
As an aside each life is only worth $275.000 or so courtesy of the Ford Pinto liability cases.
BLASPHEMY! it was the other drivers running into the Pintos!



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#12

Post by ZekeB » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:05 pm

My car has blind spot detection, auto braking when it sees an obstacle, auto braking when a pedestrian steps out (if there's enough time), automatic speed and distance compensation when the cruise control is activated, auto stop if I back to within a foot of an obstacle, vehicle side approach warning and lane departure warning with a tug of the wheel to put me back in my lane. The blind spot and side approach warnings are great. The lane departure warning is annoying. If I veer to more than about eighteen inches from dead center of the lane it peeps at me. I don't have the nerve to test the obstacle auto stop feature and I don't intend to. The lane departure warning doesn't work when the road is snow-covered or if the striping is worn off. This last item is the biggest reason why a self driving car will never work.

Despite all these features, the only discount USAA gives me is the GPS auto tracking feature. I get a small anti theft discount.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#13

Post by Whip » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:29 pm

skynet will not prevail!



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#14

Post by Slartibartfast » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:54 pm

There are already plenty of self-driving cars on the roads and they have a significantly better safety record than meat drivers. As Zeke pointed out, that technology is already making its way into people's cars (or at least Zeke's). Since most high-profile fatal crashes are a result of a driver doing something stupid (texting, driving intoxicated, etc.), it is unlikely that an automated car will be at fault in this sort of accident. Too, also, I would think that another major source of accidents, the weather, would be mitigated for the self-driving cars as well since they would be more likely to correctly adapt to situations where visibility or traction is decreased.

In other words, they are already making cars that are significantly better than average drivers without running afoul of any of the problems suggested here. Skynet is coming and we can either ride the tiger or abandon ourselves to its tender mercies, but we can't go back to the 20th century. Self-driving cars are here and probably here to stay.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#15

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:36 pm

Personally, I have much more confidence in self-driving cars than I have in person-driving flying cars and drones. For all the problems we have with bad/inattentive/impaired drivers on the roads, what makes us think that giving everyone their own flying vehicle would be a good thing? The incident of people injured inside their own homes by vehicles would go up tremendously, both with crashes and idiots dropping shit out of their flying vehicle. Yet everyone's excited over that and constantly predicting it as the next big thing.

My understanding is the self-driving cars rollout will be staged, starting with commercial delivery vehicles and initially limited to the interstate highway system. Side streets are much more of a free-for-all than are freeways in terms of unexpected maneuvers by other vehicles and sudden road hazards. Not to mention that local streets, being under local control, are more likely to fall victim to local ordinances regulating or outright prohibiting self-driving vehicular operation. It would be simpler for the proponents of self-driving vehicles to start on the freeways, then, supposing they develop a proven track record, lobby to permit its use on side streets.



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#16

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:37 pm

What's most interesting to me is how this has all occurred. Cars have been made "self aware" and are controlled from within. All this time futurists predicted centralized controls. That's not going to happen -- yet.



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#17

Post by SueDB » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:19 pm

The most suitable technology for these kind of cars is electricity or electric cars. Electric cars are capable of using many more sensors to monitor the fewer moving parts for wear/tear.

The biggest problem with electric cars though is where does the electricity come from - how it is generated. Unless you are using "green" power, they are just as if not more polluting than their fossil fuel kin.

It's also the one problem I had with bicycles - they are polluting just to make and maintain (rubber, oils, aluminum, steel, replacement parts etc). They are not as "green" as many of the booster tout them to be - and they are an extreme hazard to themselves on the road trying to compete with 2 to 7 ton piles of steel.

Self driving cars would still have to be capable of avoiding them as the bicyclists I've seen violate every traffic law in the book.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#18

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:02 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:What's most interesting to me is how this has all occurred. Cars have been made "self aware" and are controlled from within. All this time futurists predicted centralized controls. That's not going to happen -- yet.
Once law enforcement realizes they could have the ability to stop any suspect by remotely disabling their vehicle, the gov't will require that to be built into the system. Along with the ability to eavesdrop in the vehicle's cabin.

Everything is justified in the interest of "security".



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#19

Post by TollandRCR » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:05 pm

I was living in Ann Arbor in the 1990s when I first learned that car companies were seriously pursuing this idea in conjunction with universities. As I understand it, the idea then was that major roads would be computerized and that self-driving cars would be guided by route and traffic information from a centralized system as well as from sensors in the cars. I believe that it was Chrysler that had a test facility somewhere near Saline, MI.

This would require much more cooperation from state governments than seems now to be provided.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#20

Post by Whip » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:08 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V_V7ZpkJIM



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#21

Post by Whip » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:15 pm

TollandRCR wrote:I was living in Ann Arbor in the 1990s when I first learned that car companies were seriously pursuing this idea in conjunction with universities. As I understand it, the idea then was that major roads would be computerized and that self-driving cars would be guided by route and traffic information from a centralized system as well as from sensors in the cars. I believe that it was Chrysler that had a test facility somewhere near Saline, MI.

This would require much more cooperation from state governments than seems now to be provided.
There's a documentary about this. I can't find it at the moment.



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#22

Post by SueDB » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:33 pm

DejaMoo wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:What's most interesting to me is how this has all occurred. Cars have been made "self aware" and are controlled from within. All this time futurists predicted centralized controls. That's not going to happen -- yet.
Once law enforcement realizes they could have the ability to stop any suspect by remotely disabling their vehicle, the gov't will require that to be built into the system. Along with the ability to eavesdrop in the vehicle's cabin.

Everything is justified in the interest of "security".
The ability to remotely disable a vehicle exists already & with laser devices eaves dropping isn't a real problem either.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#23

Post by Notorial Dissent » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:47 pm

Dan1100 wrote:
Notorial Dissent wrote:Considering that many/most of the newer computer operated cars can be hacked to varying degrees, and that some of the so called smart cars have security breaches in them you could drive a lorry through to the point that previous owners still have full access to them. I do not find computer driven trucks on the roadways a comforting thought, for all of the reasons mentioned above. Their primary vulnerability would be in that in order for them to function at all, they would have to have continuous contact with at the very least GPS, as well as their monitoring/traffic control systems to keep them on the road and going where they are supposed to be going. Regardless of claims, those systems will be vulnerable to hacking by someone who wants in badly enough.
I'm not worried about hacking so much as just failing.

How many stories have there been of idiots driving into rivers and lakes because they were blindly following their Google Maps? Those self driving cars are going to be following those same maps. Are those maps going to somehow magically become perfect and update immediately as conditions change?

After years of inspections and emissions testing, a not insignificant portion of the cars on the roads in mandatory emissions inspections areas are still driving happily along until their next inspection with their Check Engine Light on because some sensor has failed. Some sensor fails on a self driving car, it could very well veer off the road and crash.

There are a not insignificant number of people in states with no safety inspection that drive until their brake pads are used up and digging into their rotors (having ignored the squealing sound that is supposed to warn you your brake pads are almost used up). Are we really going to trust people to keep something as complex as a self-driving car maintained?

Then, of course, the software has to be perfect. There is a reason air traffic control isn't automated. It isn't because it can't be done, it is because it can't be done perfectly.
You have a valid point, although I will go with the hacking/disruption issue as priority since if the control information is faulty not there, all you have is a however many thousand pound missile heading straight for something. The system failure issue though, as you point out, is just as important and probably even more dangerous depending upon what safeguards are installed. I keep remembering an old (very)comment about what the world would be like if Microsoft built the cars, and it was not complimentary, and in this day and age becomes downright scary.

Stern, oddly enough, one of the things that none of the old SF writers ever came up with, at least to my recollection, was someone hacking or being able to hack those "central control" systems. Of course in their minds they were dealing with fantasy about things that would "probably" never come to pass, and so never took it to the next obvious level. Now scary robots and machines taking over the world, that has been done to death, but someone taking over the scary robots and taking over the world, or really destroying it, not so much. Even the few that flirted with variations of the idea never really took it to the logical extensions.


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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#24

Post by RTH10260 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:27 pm

Whip wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V_V7ZpkJIM
[--> crash of a Tesla full speed into a white trailer crossing, against bright light]
Just to note that I recently have seen a video clip of a Tesla driven on a three lane highway, when the computer recognized even before the driver did, that another car crashed two lanes over and somewhat further up, being thrown across all three lanes. The computer stopped the car before crashing into the wreak now blocking its way.



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Re: Self Driving Cars/Vehicles

#25

Post by Whip » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:36 pm

RTH10260 wrote:
Whip wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V_V7ZpkJIM
[--> crash of a Tesla full speed into a white trailer crossing, against bright light]
Just to note that I recently have seen a video clip of a Tesla driven on a three lane highway, when the computer recognized even before the driver did, that another car crashed two lanes over and somewhat further up, being thrown across all three lanes. The computer stopped the car before crashing into the wreak now blocking its way.
I will have to search that one out. The one I was looking for the Tesla loses sight of the lane in fog or rain I believe. Been awhile since I watched it.



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